England vs New Zealand

[FKAS]

I think both teams were pushing the limits and generally cheating like bastards and it was getting on the ref's nerves. Probably similar to the Earl one.

[Danno]

Yeah fair point

[Captainhaircut]

Would love to see some positivity about Borthwick. 10 wins in a row.

[Danno]

Nah fair play to the guy. He's building and building. Picked a great 15, a great bench, a great squad and the players all seem to be buying into it as a package. We beat the ABs for the first time in six years, and very convincingly.

[FKAS]

Nah fair play to the guy. He's building and building. Picked a great 15, a great bench, a great squad and the players all seem to be buying into it as a package. We beat the ABs for the first time in six years, and very convincingly.

Imagine how good we'd be if TWillis wasn't taking the cash...

IBWT

[Captainhaircut]

Just reflecting a bit post World Cup (where after taking a shit show over, borthers led us to 3rd) and we’ve played 23, won 15, lost 8 in that time.

- We have lost by more than a score only twice. Scotland away and South Africa at home.

- by my reckoning (and will be debated) we’ve only really been poor in 3 of those 23 games. Australia at home (Borthwicks main mistake here was poor bench selection which left the back row a mess when Curry was injured), Scotland away (started well but really lost out way) and Scotland home (dreadful game, still won, I still feel if we hadn’t conceded that late try we’d be talking about it as tactically clever in how we stopped them scoring a point for 60 minutes).

- other losses were really about running out of gas against the top 4 sides in the world. NZ away twice and home last autumn, France away, Ireland away, South Africa home.

We seem to have a working plan to solve the running out of steam issue, selection seems really consistent and aligned to game plan and that game plan seems really tight.

We really just need someone to step up as another scrum half, third choice hooker, probably another lock and settle on a full back. Really exciting.

[Cameo]

I think both teams were pushing the limits and generally cheating like bastards and it was getting on the ref's nerves. Probably similar to the Earl one.

He might have started by giving some penalties! I think that was NZ's first one!

[Which Tyler]

Would love to see some positivity about Borthwick. 10 wins in a row.

A] it's been mentioned.
B] I think most of us look to the state of things at the end of the AIs, not the 3/4 stage
C] I think the general mood towards Borthwick here has been steadily improving with each window this year. Lots more positivity post 6N than pre. More positivity post SIs than pre. Unless next week against Argentina is calamitous, I'd expect the same from this window - I'm certainly there for myself.

The people I feel most sorry for after this match is the Welsh.
I don't think they'll be having much fun next week

[oldbackrow]

England need to STFU. Just heard the ref say, "No, I've stopped the clock because I'm annoyed with the way you're talking."

Puja

Bit late to this one but wasn't that whilst an England player was down and Scott Barrett was talking to the ref? He had shushed a couple of Kiwi appeals and Barrett definitely got a talking to. Now he could have been annoyed at both sides give it was a close game and there was quite a lot of appealing all round.

Yes it was. At the next lineout the ref had another word with him, it wasnt England he was fed up of

[Scrumhead]

Same for me. A Tier 1 Head Coach probably shouldn’t be learning on the job but I’m encouraged by the progress I’m seeing from Borthwick.

4/4 would be an excellent return from the AIs anr and a great springboard for the 6N.

[Stom]

Yeah, all in all that was a very promising match.

I thought Heyes was a little meh, but good enough. George had one of his poorest England games, yet we still won...that wouldn't have happened before. Baxter was also a little meh, but again, good enough. The bench front row were excellent. So that seems like a good decision all in.

Coles was a mixed bag. I think he's definitely in 4th spot of the 4, but he's shown enough to cement that spot. Itoje is Itoje.

Underhill was superb, imo. Excellent. Earl also got through a hell of a lot of work. And Pepper was always around there. He gets into the right spots, but he's sometimes a little inaccurate still. I understand why Borthwick likes him. Pollock came steaming out of the blocks in a very uncontrolled way, and was blotting his copybook. But someone had a word and he calmed down and had an overall positive influence. He did get lucky there with the try: the NZ commentators on my stream were waxing lyrical about the "kick to Roebuck", but he didn't mean that, he just pointed after he'd screwed up the kick But gets in the right spots to influence the game. That's a very important and useful attribute. Curry was very busy, but was also a little inaccurate, imo.

Mitchell is a superb SH, so far above what we've put up with for years. But he is an awful tackler. Did he complete any?

Ford had a couple of wobbles during that tough period, but otherwise was superb.

Centres were great. IFW is so powerful a runner, but his tackle technique needs some work.

Steward was good. But I think he had his knock a few minutes before he came off for the HIA as he seemed to suddenly lose effectivess. He lost a high ball, and something else I cannot remember, but I do remember thinking huh, what's happened here?

Smith was good at FB. I won't say he was excellent, but he was very good. Got away with the tackle a bit, but he had done well to get there in the first place.

All in all, very vibrant, except for those 20 first half minutes where every bounce of the ball was against us. The luck needed to even out, and it did.

[FKAS]

Same for me. A Tier 1 Head Coach probably shouldn’t be learning on the job but I’m encouraged by the progress I’m seeing from Borthwick.

4/4 would be an excellent return from the AIs anr and a great springboard for the 6N.

If you don't learn in the job you stand still and the evolution of the game leaves you behind. South Africa are the best team in the world and have cultivated a team have coaches that haven't stopped pushing the limits of what you can do with a rugby squad, the evolution of what that Bok side is continues to change.

Borthwick is trying to evolve England in order to keep up. He's never happy he's been trying to push the side since the last world cup. It's taken a while to come to fruition but there's signs we're really getting there.

[SixAndAHalf]

Also, a word on Steward. He came out of the blocks to prove me wrong and had an excellent first 10. But then he fell off, and before his sub wasn’t being effective anymore.

A strange one.

But I thought Marcus was good. Not great, but he was very involved in our attacking play.

Steward fell off? Can't say I saw that. He was excellent, polar opposite to his first half Vs Australia, felt for him having to come off early as he must have been desperate to show himself in a positive light today. Marcus brought the impetus to the attack that we'd have had him in the bench to bring, he's such an x factor player ball in hand. Positionally questionable and weak in the air to the point where we switched to Ford jumping to contest instead during the second half. If he can sort those areas out he's a great fullback at international level though if he can simply kick to touch instead of trying to pull the stupid step against three NZ defenders in future that would be nice. Really liked what we were trying to do with the two different 15s though, Steward and Roebuck in tandem really took the kicking game away from the ABs early doors though our defence narrowing far too much really hurt us, something we managed to fix in the second half at least.

Disappointed not to see CCS earlier, Coles was easily out worst player. All the physicality of a wet paper bag. Can't blame him for the lineout though, NZ had done their homework and came with three quality lineout options plus two other backrows who are solid options. Marked out two jumpers and just piled the pressure on.

Baxter and Heyes were fantastic, having your second choice props start and hold both the starting and NZ props was a serious flex. The whole pack hunted the kiwis in defence and the intensity only went up over the 80 mins which is ideal.

It's a big result for England and Simply Ballkick. Great to see Ford getting the recognition he deserves, textbook performance from him today.

Excellent post this - especially making the point I’ve tried all day to make about the starting props much more eloquently than I can.

[loudnconfident]

( Been a long day) Did the ABs No 10 kick 2 penalties dead? I know he screwed up 1 - which was bad enough - but 2?

Serious errors (tho I'm glad he did!)

[Puja]

( Been a long day) Did the ABs No 10 kick 2 penalties dead? I know he screwed up 1 - which was bad enough - but 2?

Serious errors (tho I'm glad he did!)

1 dead, and 1 infield for England to clear away, IIRC.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

My summary:

We won comfortably. Aside from the disallowed try, I counted at least three occasions where we were within a whisker of scoring. Had Ford’s poor kick pass and Underhill’s offload found their targets early on, the complexion of the game could have been very different (the third was Coles being held up but that was at a very different point in the game). Blackett is obviously very new to his role, but as he gets more time to exert his influence, I think the variety and accuracy will increase which will make us a very dangerous side.

The response to going 12 down against the run of play was excellent. I don’t think we’d have seen that level of confidence/conviction in the past. That is hugely encouraging, particularly given the speed of the two scores and how the second one came about. That suggests to me that the mindset in the squad has shifted and we genuinely believe we can beat the top sides.

Baxter and Heyes are an excellent combination. They were solid in the scrum, great in defence and willing and effective carriers. Sure, they’re not going to make big line breaks but they carry hard and present the ball well. I think we can confidently say we have 4 very good props. Building this to a stable of 6 or 7 is the next target, but that feels very possible with AOF, Iyogun, Fasogbon and Sela coming through.

I know @FKAS isn’t a fan of Coles, but I thought he was good yesterday and looks as though he is comfortable at this level. We definitely need a couple more locks to break through but I think we have some high potential players who could fill that gap. Itoje, Chessum, Martin, Coles, Ewels is not a bad group IMO.

Dingwall was decent. I’d still prefer Atkinson, but showing up well vs. the ABs is not a small thing, particularly off the back of two poor performances. Borthwick was right to trust him - also good management IMO. The easy decision would have been to bring back Slade, but that would have been a backwards step.

On the game - lots of very iffy decisions. Piardi looked out of his depth. The yellow card for Taylor was extremely harsh and probably did influence the result. However, it often felt like he was only penalising one side and I think the disallowed try and questionable yellow for Earl more than cancel out the Taylor decision.

[fivepointer]

Feels like a landmark win. The way we came back, eased away and played out the last 10 minutes was very impressive. Not everything worked and not everyone produced a top drawer performance but the good stuff far outweighed the negative aspects.

Cant overestimate how central George Ford is to this team. Its obvious he is a key leader and his play exudes calm.

Heyes and Baxter have been breakout performers this autumn. They've come of age.

Dingwalls try - set up by by an exquisite piece of play from Lawrence - was an absolute gem.

Pollock continues to make an impression. Yeah he is annoying and a bit juvenile but his energy is infectious and dammit he can back up the posturing.

Finally the ref. Its a tough gig and i dont like to moan, but this guy simply wasnt up to it not helped by assistants who didnt want to give him much of a hand.

[Beasties]

Quite something that we should’ve had at least 2 more tries. Putting that into the scoreline and it’s difficult to assess just where we’re at as a team. I’m not sure NZ were all that. They certainly made plenty of mistakes, although not in the lineouts obvs. We cleaned up in that area.

And wtf was going on with CCS? As the game wore on I started to think I’d completely imagined he was on our bench. Nope, less than two minutes to go and on he trots.

[Danno]

Yeah I found the CCS timing quite strange, especially as Coles seemed to be tiring.

+1 on Baxter & Heyes. They were rock solid. Not sure what Stom was watching ()

[Scrumhead]

Also - very much looking forward to the M-B-M, I think there is LOADS to look at in this game.

I’d be interested to see how Pepper got injured in that ruck for example. I’m sure it was reviewed and there was nothing to it, but clearly something hit him in the head.

Also curious to see if there’s any indication of what led to Steward’s HIA.

[Which Tyler]

£2000 fine for England's response to the haka
https://www.ruck.co.uk/england-fined-by ... acks-haka/

Pretty sure it's not England who are made to look bad here

[FKAS]

£2000 fine for England's response to the haka
https://www.ruck.co.uk/england-fined-by ... acks-haka/

Pretty sure it's not England who are made to look bad here

I believe that's a rehashed piece from the world cup game.

[FKAS]

Yeah I found the CCS timing quite strange, especially as Coles seemed to be tiring.

+1 on Baxter & Heyes. They were rock solid. Not sure what Stom was watching ()

I was surprised how long it took for him to come on. Either he wasn't 100% or there was a couple of bruised/tiring bodies out there and Borthwick felt the need to keep one change back in case we needed it.

[FKAS]

Also curious to see if there’s any indication of what led to Steward’s HIA.

I'm pretty sure he said "what am I going off for" to the medic which suggests it was one of those where the player hasn't really noticed it and the technology is very much helping. Otherwise Steward 100% carries on and there's the risk of compounding it with a second concussion.

[Puja]

Also curious to see if there’s any indication of what led to Steward’s HIA.

I'm pretty sure he said "what am I going off for" to the medic which suggests it was one of those where the player hasn't really noticed it and the technology is very much helping. Otherwise Steward 100% carries on and there's the risk of compounding it with a second concussion.

There is a slight possibility of a minor clip to the jaw as he chases a high kick just before, but if it is that, it's so mild that we'd never spot it without technology. He does then go on to play first receiver and put in a good grubber immediately afterwards, so he doesn't appear confused. There were a couple of heavy contacts with the ground a minute or two before, but again, nothing conclusive. Great example of technology saving the day.

Puja