England v Argentina SUNDAY 4.10pm

[Oakboy]

What next?

[Oakboy]

Anyone heard the fitness progress for Freeman or Chessum? I understand that Furbank played at the weekend. Any news on him? Steward?

[fivepointer]

Freeman and Chessum wont be available. Too early for Furbank i'd have thought.

Expect a bit of rotation but nothing too dramatic.

[Puja]

Freeman and Chessum wont be available. Too early for Furbank i'd have thought.

Expect a bit of rotation but nothing too dramatic.

I'd prefer very little rotation, tbh - Argentina are dangerous and not to be underestimated. The major concern is at full-back, given how much Argentina love a high ball and sending Isgro to go compete. Steward has been off form in the air across these AIs and may not be fit to play anyway, given his concussion, and I would be severely concerned about MSmith starting there. Furbanbk played 30 minutes before going off concussed, Daly's had no time whatsoever - we're not flush with options if Steward's out.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Has Roebuck played FB?

[FKAS]

Steward hasn't been completely dominant in the air this season for club or country and but it's rare the opposition win one off him. They at best force a scrum from a knock on or a Steward knock back. Given the aerial bombardment we expect to come he'd be the obvious selection should he be fit. If not then Daly might have to be the way to go, standing Ford and Marcus in the backfield feels like an open invite to the Pumas.

The Pom squad off the bench is probably required again given how well the Pumas finishes Vs Scotland. Given how well Heyes and Baxter have been playing that shouldn't be an issue. George limping off at the weekend might be more of a problem at hooker.

With the squad having played so well so far this Autumn I'm pretty happy with whatever we go for. I wouldn't be surprised to see Borthwick bring Fin Smith back in to continue his development.

[Oakboy]

When a 23 beats NZ convincingly, it must take some justifying to leave anyone out unless there are injuries.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Anyone heard the fitness progress for Freeman or Chessum? I understand that Furbank played at the weekend. Any news on him? Steward?

Went off for a HIA after 34 minutes, which he failed.

[Which Tyler]

Has Roebuck played FB?

No, from within the squad, Freeman or Arundell would be the obvious options who've actually played FB before - though I wouldn't be happy about either. But then, I also wouldn't be happy about Marcus starting back there.

Is Daly actually fit?
Furbank and Steward both with failed HIAs - which I think means the full 10 days off this year.
Carpenter out until Christmas.
TdG's face doesn't fit, and neither Hodge nor Hendy are remotely ready for international honours.

When a 23 beats NZ convincingly, it must take some justifying to leave anyone out unless there are injuries.

I'd like to see us rotate out any of the Lions test team who haven't had a rest yet - to actually show the bare minimum of willingness on player welfare.

Otherwise, with what Squad Builder seems to be doing with building a wider squad of starters and tinkering selection to suit the match in hand - I'm okay with some tinkering to suit. Though I can't say I know enough about a full-strength Argentina to know what tinkering is best to nullify them as opposed to NZ.
Which probably means that I wouldn't personally tinker beyond player welfare, but would look to tighten up the error count. If other changes are minimal, then I can see a place for FKAS' suggestion of bringing Fin back in, to feel loved, and have his crack at Argentina - balancing FH game time is going to be tricky, especially with an insistence on 6:2 bench with Marcus covering 10 & 15. Ford is our best FH, but we also know what he can do, and his deputy is still learning and needing exposure...

[Scrumhead]

Steward hasn't been completely dominant in the air this season for club or country and but it's rare the opposition win one off him. They at best force a scrum from a knock on or a Steward knock back. Given the aerial bombardment we expect to come he'd be the obvious selection should he be fit. If not then Daly might have to be the way to go, standing Ford and Marcus in the backfield feels like an open invite to the Pumas.

The Pom squad off the bench is probably required again given how well the Pumas finishes Vs Scotland. Given how well Heyes and Baxter have been playing that shouldn't be an issue. George limping off at the weekend might be more of a problem at hooker.

With the squad having played so well so far this Autumn I'm pretty happy with whatever we go for. I wouldn't be surprised to see Borthwick bring Fin Smith back in to continue his development.

Agree on most of this. We’re developing the squad to the extent where I’d be pretty happy with most of the available combinations.

The only piece worth mentioning about how well the Pumas finished is that they kind of did their own version of the ‘Pom squad’ (hate that name), with Gallo, Matera and Carreras for Scotland. I think they’ll start their best available XV on Sunday which will change the dyanamic.

I like the fact they won. Adds an extra edge to this game and means we’ll need to carry on our good form rather than treating this as just one more game.

[Puja]

Steward hasn't been completely dominant in the air this season for club or country and but it's rare the opposition win one off him. They at best force a scrum from a knock on or a Steward knock back. Given the aerial bombardment we expect to come he'd be the obvious selection should he be fit. If not then Daly might have to be the way to go, standing Ford and Marcus in the backfield feels like an open invite to the Pumas.

I'd count giving away the knock-on as them winning one off him! He missed two glaring ones in his short time on the pitch on Saturday - one easy catch which bounced off his chest and turned over possession, and one airy slap-back that knocked the ball back 25 metres and put Earl under huge pressure to save it 5m from the line. Combine that with him losing about 5-6 against Australia and it's a worrying loss of form. If MSmith turned in those kind of stats, we'd be baying that he's a liability and can't play 15 going forwards.

Class is permanent and we know he does have the capability to do much better, but it's worrying right now.

Puja

[SixAndAHalf]

You'd think we will keep a largely consistent team with two major questions from my perspective:

1. Who to play at 15? Assuming no Steward then I would be less reticent than others to play MSmith, however would also consider Daly if fit
2. Lineout - if Chessum remains out, do we need to bring a jumper into the back row or are the issues able to be resolved with the same personnel? Watching live, the movement was very slow and easily telegraphed.

[Oakboy]

You'd think we will keep a largely consistent team with two major questions from my perspective:

1. Who to play at 15? Assuming no Steward then I would be less reticent than others to play MSmith, however would also consider Daly if fit
2. Lineout - if Chessum remains out, do we need to bring a jumper into the back row or are the issues able to be resolved with the same personnel? Watching live, the movement was very slow and easily telegraphed.

Was Pepper tasked with playing differently from the two previous games? Or did he have a bad game? Previously, he was a functional lineout presence and good for 80.

[Oakboy]

Beating NZ has previously resulted in us being poor in the next match. SB will hopefully ensure that does not recur on Sunday.

[FKAS]

Steward hasn't been completely dominant in the air this season for club or country and but it's rare the opposition win one off him. They at best force a scrum from a knock on or a Steward knock back. Given the aerial bombardment we expect to come he'd be the obvious selection should he be fit. If not then Daly might have to be the way to go, standing Ford and Marcus in the backfield feels like an open invite to the Pumas.

I'd count giving away the knock-on as them winning one off him! He missed two glaring ones in his short time on the pitch on Saturday - one easy catch which bounced off his chest and turned over possession, and one airy slap-back that knocked the ball back 25 metres and put Earl under huge pressure to save it 5m from the line. Combine that with him losing about 5-6 against Australia and it's a worrying loss of form. If MSmith turned in those kind of stats, we'd be baying that he's a liability and can't play 15 going forwards.

Class is permanent and we know he does have the capability to do much better, but it's worrying right now.

Puja

Given our scrum and defence I'm not really worried about the scrums. Losing the ball in the air so the opposition have effectively turnover ball with 90% of your side in an offside position as they stream through in attack is the main risk. Deny that and I'm less worried. Against the Boks the scrums might be more of an issue.

[Puja]

I'd like to see us rotate out any of the Lions test team who haven't had a rest yet - to actually show the bare minimum of willingness on player welfare.

This is a good shout. That'd be Earl and Mitchell, by my reckoning, which wouldn't be insuperable - bring in Pollock (probably good for his development to give him a game from the start anyway) or CCS at 8, and give Spencer a start at 9 (which I'm much less worried about vs Argentina than I would've been against NZ)

...the ‘Pom squad’ (hate that name)...

Hard same. Quite apart from it being inane and stupid, it also has the implication that we're just copying the South Africans rather than doing our own thing, which is a) incorrect, b) annoying, and c) fuelling all the irritating Bokke internet fans who frankly do not need any further encouragement.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Beating NZ has previously resulted in us being poor in the next match. SB will hopefully ensure that does not recur on Sunday.

Once.

That being 2019.

The previous time we beat them (2012), our next game we gave Scotland a spanking.

The previous time (2003) we beat Australia away in the next game.

The previous time (2002) we absolutely buttfucked South Africa in the next game.

[Danno]

Edit, EP beat me to it while I was trawling Wiki

[Mikey Brown]

I'd like to see us rotate out any of the Lions test team who haven't had a rest yet - to actually show the bare minimum of willingness on player welfare.

This is a good shout. That'd be Earl and Mitchell, by my reckoning, which wouldn't be insuperable - bring in Pollock (probably good for his development to give him a game from the start anyway) or CCS at 8, and give Spencer a start at 9 (which I'm much less worried about vs Argentina than I would've been against NZ)

...the ‘Pom squad’ (hate that name)...

Hard same. Quite apart from it being inane and stupid, it also has the implication that we're just copying the South Africans rather than doing our own thing, which is a) incorrect, b) annoying, and c) fuelling all the irritating Bokke internet fans who frankly do not need any further encouragement.

Puja

I keep reading how Argentina bringing on Matera and Carreras at the weekend was like ‘a mini Pom squad’ and it’s painful. At that point it is simply bringing players off the bench.

There is something to the mental side of it though. I could see Scotland collapsing just at the sight of a whole England bench warming up at once.

[Mr Mwenda]

Beating NZ has previously resulted in us being poor in the next match. SB will hopefully ensure that does not recur on Sunday.

Although the sample size is pretty small regarding that, reckon.

[Which Tyler]

I think I'd go (assuming fitness):
1. Baxter
2. George
3. Heyes
4. Itoje
5. Coles
6. Pepper
7. Underhill
8. CCS

09. Spencer
10. FSmith
11. IFW
12. Dingwall
13. Lawrence
14. Roebuck / Freeman
15. Freeman / Daly

16. LCD, 17. Genge, 18. AOF, 19. Chessum, 20. Isiekwe, 21. Pollock
22. JvP, 23. MSmith

I'd like to give 3rd choice hooker a go, but I don't trust Dan at this level.

Rests for Earl & Mitchell post-lions.
Also a rest for Curry, who's held together more by stretchy tape than ligaments these days.
Bring Fin back in to build his bank of experience in a match we ought to be confident about - it's not like he's a big step down from GF)
Give AOF, Isiewke and JvP a shot off the bench
Still a bugger's muddle at FB, but with all our actual FBs injured, there's not a lot we can do about that.

I'm looking at that and I'm thinking of the potential for a full tight-5 coming on at 55 minutes to turn the screw in the tight, and see how that goes, whilst having the flexibility to bail fro that plan and do the "usual" 3-1-2 of forwards.

[Puja]

Beating NZ has previously resulted in us being poor in the next match. SB will hopefully ensure that does not recur on Sunday.

Although the sample size is pretty small regarding that, reckon.

I cannot tell you how many times we have beaten any other team over my rugby-watching lifespan, even the rarer ones like Australia or South Africa, but NZ I can tell you 26-26 draw in 1997 2nd test, win 31-28 in 2002, 13-15 in Wellington in 2003, then 38-21 in 2012 when Burt surprised everyone, 2019 was 19-7 in Yokohama, 2022 draw was 24-24 (? Not 100% on that one), and then 2025 33-19 - a Ford conversion away from having put a 1.5x rankings point victory on them for only the second time.

Admittedly, it's possibly because I started watching rugby in 1995, meaning that one of my core memories was of sitting down for the RWC semi-final at the age of 10, having never seen England lose before and not really knowing that was an option, only to watch us get utterly brutalised by Lomu. So it's entirely possible it's just trauma. But beating New Zealand remains special, no matter how vintage or otherwise the AB side might have been.

I think part of it comes down to the fact that there has never been an occasion where we were verifiably and undeniably better than them, to the extent that I would expect a victory. It's happened to every other nation at some point - Australia's doldrums before Schmidt, Camp Staalrad era Springboks, 2001 or 2013 France, pre-2000s Ireland, pick any one of several periods for Wales or Scotland. The best we've done was 2003, where we were definitely a better team than them, but only by a whisker.

Puja

[p/d]

Keep building. Don’t rest anybody. Fitness changes only. And I say that even though I would like to see tweaks.

[Scrumhead]

I think I'd go (assuming fitness):
1. Baxter
2. George
3. Heyes
4. Itoje
5. Coles
6. Pepper
7. Underhill
8. CCS

09. Spencer
10. FSmith
11. IFW
12. Dingwall
13. Lawrence
14. Roebuck / Freeman
15. Freeman / Daly

16. LCD, 17. Genge, 18. AOF, 19. Chessum, 20. Isiekwe, 21. Pollock
22. JvP, 23. MSmith

I'd like to give 3rd choice hooker a go, but I don't trust Dan at this level.

Rests for Earl & Mitchell post-lions.
Also a rest for Curry, who's held together more by stretchy tape than ligaments these days.
Bring Fin back in to build his bank of experience in a match we ought to be confident about - it's not like he's a big step down from GF)
Give AOF, Isiewke and JvP a shot off the bench
Still a bugger's muddle at FB, but with all our actual FBs injured, there's not a lot we can do about that.

I'm looking at that and I'm thinking of the potential for a full tight-5 coming on at 55 minutes to turn the screw in the tight, and see how that goes, whilst having the flexibility to bail fro that plan and do the "usual" 3-1-2 of forwards.

I like this. Although unless I’ve missed something neither Chessum or JvP would be available for selection. 3rd choice 9 is presumably Quirke but I don’t think I’d risk playing him unless he’s doing a much better job in the England camp than he has with Sale.

We could put Kenningham on to the bench with CCS covering lock. However, unless we’re elevating Batley from the A squad, I think I’d be more inclined to go 5:3.

There’s a fine balance in this one between a bit of rotation and making sure we win. Thankfully, i have a lot of confidence in any second choice players being almost as good as those they’d be replacing.

[Which Tyler]

I like this. Although unless I’ve missed something neither Chessum or JvP would be available for selection. 3rd choice 9 is presumably Quirke but I don’t think I’d risk playing him unless he’s doing a much better job in the England camp than he has with Sale.

We could put Kenningham on to the bench with CCS covering lock. However, unless we’re elevating Batley from the A squad, I think I’d be more inclined to go 5:3.

There’s a fine balance in this one between a bit of rotation and making sure we win. Thankfully, i have a lot of confidence in any second choice players being almost as good as those they’d be replacing.

Dammit, you're right, Quirke was 3rd choice SH. You're also right that, like Dan, I simply don't trust him at this level. Mitchell will have to sit on the bench then and hope to limit his time on the pitch.

I toyed with the idea of Kenningham, but felt it was a bit much of a step down from Curry, and quite liked the idea of a full tight 5 on the bench, with Isiekwe being the adaptable one who could go to 6 if that's where we felt he was needed.

Chessum very much depends on the injury - if he's not fit, then Ewels is next in line and within the squad (or, as you say, Kenningham instead); though Sodeke, Batley and Bamber all have higher ceilings, but I'm not sure any are ready just yet. I've not got problem with Ewels as 5th choice since his learning in South Africa