England v Argentina SUNDAY 4.10pm

[TheDasher]

I only don't know what everyone's taking... I'm all for having players get familiar with other roles to enable us to play a 6:2 split on the bench and cover emergencies, but starting our absolutely stonkingly good no8 at 12 against Argentina just to practice an emergency situation is fcking mad.

Puja when you say that he could be considered at 12 generally, I know what you mean but his strength is in being around and close to rucks if he wants to be, off anyone's shoulder near the play, sometimes wide, sometimes tight. Play him at 12 and I guarantee we'll see less of his strengths, for starters he's great at offloading but not passing to release people out wide. Emergency cover only in my view.

Let's face if guys, 6 Curry (or Pepper), 7 Underhill, 8 Earl is becoming an absolute cheatcode of a backrow, got to keep picking it with CCS, Pollock etc on the bench.

[Danno]

George, Freeman, Roebuck, Lawrence out

Blamire, Ewels Kenningham, Calouri, Murley in/retained

[Stom]

Wow, ok. Arundell on the wing, I guess. Kenningham in?

[Danno]

My guess is LCD + Dan

Dingwall + Slade (gross)

IFW + Arundell (Murley with the most outside of outside shots)

Steward + Smith on the bench - Steward is apparently fit

[Captainhaircut]

Squad really being tested now. 8 (Martin, Chessum, George, Furbank, Freeman, Lawrence/Atkinson, Roebuck) of the likely first 23 out now? Plus BCurry and JVP who would have a shot.

Arundell for Roebuck is ok but does take away a major strength in the air we have used well. Obviously brings other strengths…

Centre and hooker the big concerns. Dingwall and Slade is a horror combo whilst Dan has been twiddling his thumbs for weeks and been fairly dreadful in his most recent England appearances.

Would bring Ewels onto the bench, CCS to 8 and Earl to 12. Arundell for Roebuck and Dan for George.

Leave Ewels on the bench as the safety net for injury like we did CCS last weekend.

[Danno]

If LCD has one of his wobbly days we might as well forget about the lineout, cause Dan isn't going to shore that up.

[p/d]

If LCD has one of his wobbly days we might as well forget about the lineout, cause Dan isn't going to shore that up.

They will both be on the money. Don’t like to wish injury on anyone but pleased with these two in the 23. Unless, that is, Earl can cover 2

[Puja]

I don't quite know how Dan has ended up with the tag of being an unplayable liability on here. Yes, he's not as metronomic in his darts as George, but he's a decent thrower - one iffy game in the summer doesn't make him a disaster area.

He's a good carrier who picks out holes and weak shoulders to attack with pace, he's got excellent hands, and he brings a big impact off the bench. Frankly, I don't get why everyone's chucked him in the bin already.

Puja

[FKAS]

"Hooker Jamie George, wing Tom Roebuck and centre Ollie Lawrence have been ruled out of Sunday's match against Argentina as England's tough autumn stretches the squad.

All three started the 33-19 win over New Zealand last weekend, but George and Lawrence picked up hamstring injuries while Roebuck has a foot problem.

Two other regulars, lock Ollie Chessum and centre Tommy Freeman, are again unavailable after missing the victory over the All Blacks.

Hooker Jamie Blamire, second row Charlie Ewels and uncapped teenage wing Noah Caluori come into the squad as Steve Borthwick's side target an unbeaten autumn."

As you guys are saying going to be interesting to see what we do here now the squad is being stretched.

I suspect Calouri is probably in the training squad to help prepare the starters for the aerial battle that's to come. Probably similar with Ewels, who's not played since the 3rd October and there to help work on the lineout defence.

[Danno]

I don't quite know how Dan has ended up with the tag of being an unplayable liability on here. Yes, he's not as metronomic in his darts as George, but he's a decent thrower - one iffy game in the summer doesn't make him a disaster area.

He's a good carrier who picks out holes and weak shoulders to attack with pace, he's got excellent hands, and he brings a big impact off the bench. Frankly, I don't get why everyone's chucked him in the bin already.

Puja

But his principle weakness is the lineout. Kind of important. Hasn't stopped LCD mind.

[TheDasher]

Get Seb Blake and Will Joseph involved borthers...

[Puja]

I don't quite know how Dan has ended up with the tag of being an unplayable liability on here. Yes, he's not as metronomic in his darts as George, but he's a decent thrower - one iffy game in the summer doesn't make him a disaster area.

He's a good carrier who picks out holes and weak shoulders to attack with pace, he's got excellent hands, and he brings a big impact off the bench. Frankly, I don't get why everyone's chucked him in the bin already.

Puja

But his principle weakness is the lineout. Kind of important. Hasn't stopped LCD mind.

But it's not **weak** is the point I'm making - it's fine. I want him to keep improving it and he's very much not the finished article as a player yet, but I'd have no terrors in him starting an international, except in the fact that it'd leave us with someone completely unsuitable on the bench.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Weirdly it wouldn’t surprise me seeing either Steward or Callouri in the 14 shirt ahead of Arundell.

13 is tricky.

It’s a shame neither of the Quins 13s managed to stake more of a claim or stay fit. Both looked good alongside Dingwall and provide a bit more physicality than Slade/Ojomoh.

[fivepointer]

I don't quite know how Dan has ended up with the tag of being an unplayable liability on here. Yes, he's not as metronomic in his darts as George, but he's a decent thrower - one iffy game in the summer doesn't make him a disaster area.

He's a good carrier who picks out holes and weak shoulders to attack with pace, he's got excellent hands, and he brings a big impact off the bench. Frankly, I don't get why everyone's chucked him in the bin already.

Puja

Think his horror show in Argentina has something to do with most (me included) going a bit cool on him.

Takes a lot to recover from a seriously poor performance and Dan hasnt done that so far this season where his form has been pretty ordinary. I agree that he has a bit going for him but doubts remain in my mind about whether he can really step up.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah, Dan’s appearance in the second test in Argentina is up there with the very worst individual performances I’ve seen from an England player. Really, really bad.

I’d have dropped him for Oghre and made him work to get back in the mix. The fact that he no longer has a central contract makes him easier to drop too. I’m all for a redemption story but I’m really not sure he is good enough to be third choice and given the age profile of our current first and second choice, I’m not convinced he can kick on to the extent he’d need to be the second choice by 2027. I’m hoping Jibulu and Tuipolotu are able to break through and leapfrog both Dan and Oghre.

Our wing options and the way this might impact our gameplan is interesting. We either significantly change our approach to kicking to compete and trust Blackett to devise a plan to utilise IFW and Arundell’s (or Murley) pace, or we risk it with Caluori. Personally, I’d go for the former but neither is ideal given the Pumas have a good aerial game.

[Which Tyler]

Think his horror show in Argentina has something to do with most (me included) going a bit cool on him.

Takes a lot to recover from a seriously poor performance and Dan hasnt done that so far this season where his form has been pretty ordinary. I agree that he has a bit going for him but doubts remain in my mind about whether he can really step up.

This, he's 23 caps in (albeit only 4 starts), and is yet to impress (me) internationally, but has had a couple of disasters, which are also the most recent memories of him for England.
Whilst reserving the right to be wrong, I've given up on him as an international player, in much the same way as I've given up on Dombrandt and Slade, or an Alex Goode previously - though I don't recall any of those being quite as bad as Dan was in Argentina. With less than 20 matches to go before the RWC, and George already fading, we either have to more on ASAP, or commit to someone I've given up on.

I will add that this is from someone who knows next to nothing about front row play. So A] I'm happy to be corrected by those who do know more, but B] If it's bad enough for me to notice, it's probably worse than I can tell.

For now, we've got the likes of Oghre, Langdon, Blamire who all feel like they could have done more if they'd had the same investment as Dan. But more to the point, there's also the likes of Blake, Jibulu and Tuipulotu coming through in exiting ways. Of course, I'm also aware that there's always the lure of the new shiny thing, and that KT's game time needs to be carefully managed still.

[Oakboy]

Think his horror show in Argentina has something to do with most (me included) going a bit cool on him.

Takes a lot to recover from a seriously poor performance and Dan hasnt done that so far this season where his form has been pretty ordinary. I agree that he has a bit going for him but doubts remain in my mind about whether he can really step up.

This, he's 23 caps in (albeit only 4 starts), and is yet to impress (me) internationally, but has had a couple of disasters, which are also the most recent memories of him for England.
Whilst reserving the right to be wrong, I've given up on him as an international player, in much the same way as I've given up on Dombrandt and Slade, or an Alex Goode previously - though I don't recall any of those being quite as bad as Dan was in Argentina. With less than 20 matches to go before the RWC, and George already fading, we either have to more on ASAP, or commit to someone I've given up on.

I will add that this is from someone who knows next to nothing about front row play. So A] I'm happy to be corrected by those who do know more, but B] If it's bad enough for me to notice, it's probably worse than I can tell.

For now, we've got the likes of Oghre, Langdon, Blamire who all feel like they could have done more if they'd had the same investment as Dan. But more to the point, there's also the likes of Blake, Jibulu and Tuipulotu coming through in exiting ways. Of course, I'm also aware that there's always the lure of the new shiny thing, and that KT's game time needs to be carefully managed still.

As regards managing KT, do you see slightly less restraint as acceptable these days? Does Pollock, at 20, being physically competitive with any forward in the game point that way?

[Danno]

Think his horror show in Argentina has something to do with most (me included) going a bit cool on him.

Takes a lot to recover from a seriously poor performance and Dan hasnt done that so far this season where his form has been pretty ordinary. I agree that he has a bit going for him but doubts remain in my mind about whether he can really step up.

This, he's 23 caps in (albeit only 4 starts), and is yet to impress (me) internationally, but has had a couple of disasters, which are also the most recent memories of him for England.
Whilst reserving the right to be wrong, I've given up on him as an international player, in much the same way as I've given up on Dombrandt and Slade, or an Alex Goode previously - though I don't recall any of those being quite as bad as Dan was in Argentina. With less than 20 matches to go before the RWC, and George already fading, we either have to more on ASAP, or commit to someone I've given up on.

I will add that this is from someone who knows next to nothing about front row play. So A] I'm happy to be corrected by those who do know more, but B] If it's bad enough for me to notice, it's probably worse than I can tell.

For now, we've got the likes of Oghre, Langdon, Blamire who all feel like they could have done more if they'd had the same investment as Dan. But more to the point, there's also the likes of Blake, Jibulu and Tuipulotu coming through in exiting ways. Of course, I'm also aware that there's always the lure of the new shiny thing, and that KT's game time needs to be carefully managed still.

As regards managing KT, do you see slightly less restraint as acceptable these days? Does Pollock, at 20, being physically competitive with any forward in the game point that way?

http://rugbyrebels.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=30

[p/d]

I don't quite know how Dan has ended up with the tag of being an unplayable liability on here. Yes, he's not as metronomic in his darts as George, but he's a decent thrower - one iffy game in the summer doesn't make him a disaster area.

He's a good carrier who picks out holes and weak shoulders to attack with pace, he's got excellent hands, and he brings a big impact off the bench. Frankly, I don't get why everyone's chucked him in the bin already.

Puja

Couldn’t agree more.

[Captainhaircut]

Re Dan, his darts are average at best, I think he’s quite a poor defender and his ball security isn’t great. Got the ability to produce some great moments but a bit of a highlights player currently.

Reality is that he needs far more minutes than he gets to develop as a player.

[Which Tyler]

As regards managing KT, do you see slightly less restraint as acceptable these days? Does Pollock, at 20, being physically competitive with any forward in the game point that way?

Unless human biology has changed in the last decade or so - then no.
I'd suggest the precise opposite, as the physical challenges have increased.

Pollock and Kepu both have the bones of a 20-year old. No amount of training or innate skill can change that.

[FKAS]

Re Dan, his darts are average at best, I think he’s quite a poor defender and his ball security isn’t great. Got the ability to produce some great moments but a bit of a highlights player currently.

Reality is that he needs far more minutes than he gets to develop as a player.

Last season he had 866 mins across 24 games (10 starts). Six games with five starts and 277 mins this season already. 23/24 he played over a thousand minutes.

He's getting game time but I think it's important to remember he's still only 24 and he's not going to be a like for like replacement for George and LCD. Those boys are a lot bigger than him for starters. Probably worth noting that Jamie George wasn't straight out the gate an international and club regular he had to do his apprenticeship to the South Africans in Sarries set up and didn't make his first England appearance until he was 24. I don't have an issue with front rowers developing a bit slower than other positions as their careers normally (we all hope anyway) last longer.

[Which Tyler]

George, Freeman, Roebuck, Lawrence out

Blamire, Ewels Kenningham, Calouri, Murley in/retained

So that's:
LHP: Fin Baxter, Ellis Genge, Beno Obano
HK: Jamie Blamire, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Theo Dan
THP: Joe Heyes, Asher Opoku-Fordjour, Will Stuart
LK: Alex Coles, Charlie Ewels, Maro Itoje, Nick Isiekwe
B3: Chandler Cunningham-South, Tom Curry, Ben Earl, Jack Kenningham, Guy Pepper, Henry Pollock, Sam Underhill

SH: Alex Mitchell, Raffi Quirke, Ben Spencer
FH: George Ford, Fin Smith
CE: Fraser Dingwall, Max Ojomoh, Henry Slade
WG: Henry Arundell, Noah Caluori, Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, Cadan Murley
FB: Freddie Steward
UB: Elliot Daly, Marcus Smith


I'd go:
Baxter, LCD, Heyes
Itoje, Coles
Pepper, 8.CCS, Underhill

Spencer, FSmith
Dingwall, Ojomoh
Arundell, 15.Steward, IFW

Blamire, Genge, Stuart, Isiekwe, Curry, Pollock
Quirke, MSmith

6 changes + 3 on the bench is plenty


Earl and Mitchell getting a rest on the principle of player welfare post-Lions. Tempted to have Kenningham on the bench for Curry on the same principle, but not tempted enough to actually do it (already up over 1/3 of the team changed from last weekend).
Also tempted to start Daly on the wing - but if so, in his first match after 4 months, I'd like a direct replacement for him on the bench.

[Stom]

I like:

Baxter
LCD
Heyes
Itoje
Coles
Pepper
Underhill
Earl
Mitchell
Ford
IFW
Dingwall
Ojomah
Arundell
Marcus

Dan, Genge, Stuart, CCS, Kenningham, Pollock, Quirke, Daly.

[Beasties]

If LCD has one of his wobbly days we might as well forget about the lineout, cause Dan isn't going to shore that up.

At least we’ve practised a crap lineout day on Sat. Every eventuality and all that…