England v Argentina SUNDAY 4.10pm

[Oakboy]

I think Contepomi needs to find composure and search his memory a bit before being hypocritical. Talking of knees, that bastard Lavanini's tackle from the side on Nathan Hughes when he was bound and could not see him coming was horrendous. That WAS a deliberate maiming attempt. Curry's was just a fair tackle, arguably a bit late.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I was unable to watch the game. I saw highlights and Ojomoh had a hand in everything. Was he really good, or was it just the highlights?

And, also, how did the others go? I've read here that Daly was crap, how did the others go? Steward...I see above, anyone else? Would it have been better with MSmith and Arundell playing? Or were all the problems coming from the pack and 9/10?

You did best just to get the highlights. The game was a turgid affair. Ojomoh was largely good. A few bits off the mark, but the game didn't really manifest in any way to showcase what he can really do. The kick pass was fab, but under zero pressure. Offload for Slade was a beaut. It was argely just anti-attacking rugby though.

[Oakboy]

I was unable to watch the game. I saw highlights and Ojomoh had a hand in everything. Was he really good, or was it just the highlights?

And, also, how did the others go? I've read here that Daly was crap, how did the others go? Steward...I see above, anyone else? Would it have been better with MSmith and Arundell playing? Or were all the problems coming from the pack and 9/10?

You did best just to get the highlights. The game was a turgid affair. Ojomoh was largely good. A few bits off the mark, but the game didn't really manifest in any way to showcase what he can really do. The kick pass was fab, but under zero pressure. Offload for Slade was a beaut. It was argely just anti-attacking rugby though.

I'd guess that just about everything Ojomoh did fitted into the highlights. That was not his fault. He showed pace, judgement and good hands on the few occasions he could get involved.

Somebody earlier said our drop off in performance was more about game plan than selection. That is true but the two are connected of course. We won and I'd guess that the team and gameplan will be very different for the 6N opener.

[p/d]

Thought our drop off was because Pumas learnt how to catch and hold onto the ball.

[twitchy]

The pumas whole game plan is a late game blitz isn't it. That scotland performance wasn't a one-off. They are incredibly good at it and have mugged off a lot of the top teams. I really respect being able to go through that many phases without making a mistake and ramping the pressure up it takes a lot of skill. It was excruciating at the end from an england perspective.

[Oakboy]

The pumas whole game plan is a late game blitz isn't it. That scotland performance wasn't a one-off. They are incredibly good at it and have mugged off a lot of the top teams. I really respect being able to go through that many phases without making a mistake and ramping the pressure up it takes a lot of skill. It was excruciating at the end from an england perspective.

We clung on but could we have changed things for the last 20 or so? I thought SB was a bit passive at that point but did the result completely justify his decision? It always seems more enterprising to change - Marcus for Ford, say - but sometimes it takes great nerve not to change. I just want to forget the game and remember the result.

[Puja]

How many did Argentina take in the air? None. They got nothing. Quite frankly I'll take a knock on from anyone against a team that's good in the air. Our scrum and first phase defence is good. At international rugby it's often the turnover ball, the bouncing ball, the ball won in the air beyond the opposition defence that creates the points. Very hard to win everything clean in the air when the opposition are allowed to jump into you with only passing interest in attempting to play the ball.

He also increasingly ran the lines you'd expect from a 13 as the game went on. With Ojomoh offering limited direct carrying and Slade no direct carrying he gave the attack something to get over the line. Probably not something we'll need in the 6N when we will hopefully be fielding at least two of Freeman, Lawrence and Roebuck. Will depend on what Borthwick thinks we need I expect. As he's selected Steward for every game he's been fit this Autumn maybe he's changed his mind about what he wants at 15 though he might change it again by the 6N

They didn’t get nothing- I’ll wait for Puja’s mbm but as I said in my original post, the whole crazy last 5 minutes came from Steward knocking on a very easy unchallenged catch on the right wing. 3 passes later and it’s with Malia who kicks a 50/22 but also gets a penalty which leads to the entry for their final try. Steward catches that and it’s the 75th minute and we are camped in their half.

For someone whose super strength is meant to be the high ball, it’s a moment that not good enough and almost costs us.

I'm afraid that, as warned last week, there won't be one for this game. I was actually very tempted, cause I think there is stuff to explore in that match (notably, why we were so rubbish, - I suspect that (controversially) AOF and Ojomoh were a reasonable chunk of that - some rookie errors amidst the good stuff, which caused system problems. A good learning experience that they will hopefully be better for), but I am hugely overbooked and stressed this week and I know for a fact that attempting to commit to another task will go badly, so I'm attempting to be sensible and stick by my original decision.

Yeah that specific knock on down the right wing was poor, not sure if he took his eye off it or he misjudged the trajectory but iirc it came off his shoulder. Losing one ball midway in the opposition half shouldn't lead to us fighting for the game though. There were multiple other feck ups during the second half that helped allow the Pumas back in. It will be the lack of accuracy across the second half that will probably grind on Borthwick. Steward should take that kick, we fell off lots of tackles we should have made, competed at rucks we shouldn't have (giving penalties away) etc.

It's not an isolated incident though - he lost out on several against Argentina, he bounced one off his chest/shoulder in exactly the same fashion against New Zealand, and he was overmastered multiple times against Australia. I'm really not sure that I buy your "a knock-on is fine" theory - I get why you say it, but is it really materially different to their chaser tapping it back? The one against Argentina landed neatly in Matera's arms.

Puja

[Puja]

I was unable to watch the game. I saw highlights and Ojomoh had a hand in everything. Was he really good, or was it just the highlights?

And, also, how did the others go? I've read here that Daly was crap, how did the others go? Steward...I see above, anyone else? Would it have been better with MSmith and Arundell playing? Or were all the problems coming from the pack and 9/10?

Daly wasn't utterly appalling, but was a good deal off the pace, didn't really do anything good, and made one horrendous decision to KADAB really good attacking ball aboput 30m out, which went right down Carreras's throat without pressure and let him kick the ball 80m downfield.

Ojomoh had a perfect highlights game - try, 2 try assists, but intermingled with some poor decision-making in both attack and defence. Feels weird to say he was just okay, given the three big highlights, but that's probably the right assessment.

Slade was okay. Ran a couple of good lines, didn't really let anyone down or do anything sparkling. Spencer had a fantastic box-kicking game, but just has zero ability to play with his head up for England. Doesn't matter what the situation or the momentum or the arrangement of defence - if the ball stopped for half a second, it was time for a box-kick. We looked so much better when Mitchell came on. Ford was fine, but stood far too deep most of the time and showed very little interest in going to the line. IFW had some highlights, but still doesn't look properly fit to me - very rarely ran at full speed or tried to go around the outside and looked like he was going at 75% pace most of the time.

Pack were solid, but gave away some stupid penalties/got on the wrong side of the ref. It was noticeable just how badly we went downhill when Itoje had to come off and it wasn't because Ewels was particularly crap. We are very reliant on him to lift our pack above meh.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

I was unable to watch the game. I saw highlights and Ojomoh had a hand in everything. Was he really good, or was it just the highlights?

And, also, how did the others go? I've read here that Daly was crap, how did the others go? Steward...I see above, anyone else? Would it have been better with MSmith and Arundell playing? Or were all the problems coming from the pack and 9/10?

You did best just to get the highlights. The game was a turgid affair. Ojomoh was largely good. A few bits off the mark, but the game didn't really manifest in any way to showcase what he can really do. The kick pass was fab, but under zero pressure. Offload for Slade was a beaut. It was argely just anti-attacking rugby though.

I'd guess that just about everything Ojomoh did fitted into the highlights. That was not his fault. He showed pace, judgement and good hands on the few occasions he could get involved.

Somebody earlier said our drop off in performance was more about game plan than selection. That is true but the two are connected of course. We won and I'd guess that the team and gameplan will be very different for the 6N opener.

We definitely set out differently, Whether that was game plan driven or game plan set against personnel is anyone's guess. Considering how much we kicked I'd say it was plan over personnel, but only Statistical Believer knows for sure.

40 kicks in play, which was our highest of the AIs.

[Mellsblue]

Daly a constant threat to England.

This is both true and hilarious.

[Oakboy]

Daly a constant threat to England.

This is both true and hilarious.

Wry humour from p/d as usual!

SB was not forced into picking him. Other quality wingers were available. Maybe, it highlights the diffference between fitness and match fitness. SB was quoted about Daly impressing in training before the match. What a mistake-a to make-a.

[Mr Mwenda]

Was it a mistake? Perhaps Arundel would have been worse? Shiny Bosoms will point at the result. But I agree, it didn't look like Daly's experience was much help!

[fivepointer]

Picking a guy without a minutes playing time this season was always a risk as some of us did point out beforehand.

SB got most things right this Autumn but he erred on this one.

[FKAS]

Was it a mistake? Perhaps Arundel would have been worse? Shiny Bosoms will point at the result. But I agree, it didn't look like Daly's experience was much help!

Hard to tell without hearing from within the camp. He might have been a vocal leader on the pitch. Otherwise p/d is pretty spot on, not Daly's best day for England.

Was a bit of a gamble, didn't seem to pay off particularly but we did win.

[Spiffy]

The pumas whole game plan is a late game blitz isn't it. That scotland performance wasn't a one-off. They are incredibly good at it and have mugged off a lot of the top teams. I really respect being able to go through that many phases without making a mistake and ramping the pressure up it takes a lot of skill. It was excruciating at the end from an england perspective.

Lucky for England that Argentina are woefully slow starters. How they can leave out such a brilliant player as Santi Carreras from the starting XV is hard to figure.

[Danno]

I dunno, I just think it's well past time that Slade and Daly were sent to the glue factory. Steal a living elsewhere.

[FKAS]

The pumas whole game plan is a late game blitz isn't it. That scotland performance wasn't a one-off. They are incredibly good at it and have mugged off a lot of the top teams. I really respect being able to go through that many phases without making a mistake and ramping the pressure up it takes a lot of skill. It was excruciating at the end from an england perspective.

Lucky for England that Argentina are woefully slow starters. How they can leave out such a brilliant player as Santi Carreras from the starting XV is hard to figure.

Albornoz and Malia aren't exactly poor players themselves. Mallia a regular with Toulouse and Albornoz hotly tipped to be joining Toulon next summer. Could you squeeze all three into the same backline and maybe embrace more of a counter attacking game as part of the kick tennis they like?

[Danno]

The pumas whole game plan is a late game blitz isn't it. That scotland performance wasn't a one-off. They are incredibly good at it and have mugged off a lot of the top teams. I really respect being able to go through that many phases without making a mistake and ramping the pressure up it takes a lot of skill. It was excruciating at the end from an england perspective.

Lucky for England that Argentina are woefully slow starters. How they can leave out such a brilliant player as Santi Carreras from the starting XV is hard to figure.

Albornoz and Malia aren't exactly poor players themselves. Mallia a regular with Toulouse and Albornoz hotly tipped to be joining Toulon next summer. Could you squeeze all three into the same backline and maybe embrace more of a counter attacking game as part of the kick tennis they like?

They're very good but Spiffy is right. Benching Carreras is just bizarre. Montoya, Matera and Santi are probably their best three players, why you'd leave one on the bench for an hour is beyond me.

[Captainhaircut]

Albornoz and Malia aren't exactly poor players themselves. Mallia a regular with Toulouse and Albornoz hotly tipped to be joining Toulon next summer. Could you squeeze all three into the same backline and maybe embrace more of a counter attacking game as part of the kick tennis they like?

They aren’t going to have to worry about squeezing them all in for a while since Curry broke Malia’s knee. Not sure what Felipe is whinging about since it solved this problem for him.

[FKAS]

Lucky for England that Argentina are woefully slow starters. How they can leave out such a brilliant player as Santi Carreras from the starting XV is hard to figure.

Albornoz and Malia aren't exactly poor players themselves. Mallia a regular with Toulouse and Albornoz hotly tipped to be joining Toulon next summer. Could you squeeze all three into the same backline and maybe embrace more of a counter attacking game as part of the kick tennis they like?

They're very good but Spiffy is right. Benching Carreras is just bizarre. Montoya, Matera and Santi are probably their best three players, why you'd leave one on the bench for an hour is beyond me.

Well they left two on the bench for that long, excluding some HIA coverage.

[Danno]

Albornoz and Malia aren't exactly poor players themselves. Mallia a regular with Toulouse and Albornoz hotly tipped to be joining Toulon next summer. Could you squeeze all three into the same backline and maybe embrace more of a counter attacking game as part of the kick tennis they like?

They're very good but Spiffy is right. Benching Carreras is just bizarre. Montoya, Matera and Santi are probably their best three players, why you'd leave one on the bench for an hour is beyond me.

Well they left two on the bench for that long, excluding some HIA coverage.

Mad innit

[FKAS]

They're very good but Spiffy is right. Benching Carreras is just bizarre. Montoya, Matera and Santi are probably their best three players, why you'd leave one on the bench for an hour is beyond me.

Well they left two on the bench for that long, excluding some HIA coverage.

Mad innit

It's the big coaching craze in international rugby, the impact bench. Teams struggling to implement it like Ireland and Scotland are falling away in the second half of the big games this Autumn.

[Oakboy]

Well they left two on the bench for that long, excluding some HIA coverage.

Mad innit

It's the big coaching craze in international rugby, the impact bench. Teams struggling to implement it like Ireland and Scotland are falling away in the second half of the big games this Autumn.

The way that we are building alternatives in most positions means that the bench impact will be less about saving the better players. Arguably, we have five forwards (front row + 2 backrowers) of equal standard with the starters. The impact comes from bringing five sets of fresh legs on at the same time.

Hopefully, we can be innovative and lead the world in adapting further. A genuine 5/6 like Martin (or maybe CCS), for example, would move on from 6:2 as currently applied to 5:3 so that something new could be achieved with three backs.

Against Argentina, instead of trying not to lose in the last 20, we could have taken the game by the scruff of the neck and scored tries to move out of sight. Bringing, say, Mitchell, Marcus and Arundell, on and not kicking the ball away might have resulted in a different game trend.

I'm sure SB and Blackett will be looking at alternatives. Let's face it, we simply don't have the poundage to beat SA at their own game. Yes, we need to be competitive up front but we won't win an arm-wrestle. There has to be more emphasis on speed. Stats in today's DT indicated we were not near the top for quick ball from rucks. That surprised me and is maybe one area where we need to review our approach (perhaps selection and style).

[Which Tyler]

Your surprised that selecting Spencer at 9, and a kick-ball game plan didn't land us near the top for quick ball from rucks?

[Mikey Brown]

Well they left two on the bench for that long, excluding some HIA coverage.

Mad innit

It's the big coaching craze in international rugby, the impact bench. Teams struggling to implement it like Ireland and Scotland are falling away in the second half of the big games this Autumn.

I couldn’t tell which of these posts were even serious, given how relentless the talk about our bench has been.

It will be interesting to see how Martin gets on if/when he gets back to where he was fitness wise. He might be the sort of player that is actually suited to 25 minutes of thumping people and bolstering the scrum, but I really can’t picture him being used as a flanker again unless it’s to swap in for Chessum/Coles moving there.

CCS is still a bit of an enigma. I’d love to have see him get a go at 8 with the Bath pair, but Earl has looked much more like his World Cup self than he has for a while now.