New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Mellsblue]

We need a couple of hookers to emerge, a fourth lock/Martin to stop breaking, a second no8, two scrum halves, a couple of ICs to put together more than two good games, a second 13 plus Furbank to prove form and a third choice 15 to get some game time. Other than that it’s hunky dory.

Overall, are we quantity rather than quality? My optimism allows for building a team better than the sum of its parts. We have few, if any, absolute top stream talented players but we have depth.

My point is that in a lot of positions we don’t have depth.
Other than props, flankers, 10 and wings then I think we aren’t very deep at all.

[Danno]

Even props are shaky. After the first and sub 1/3 we're looking at either journeymen or 21 year olds right now

[Danno]

All moaning aside, we're in a much better state than we've been in for years. A few bits to improve, one or two to fine tune, but I'm feeling pretty optimistic.

[fivepointer]

There are concerns around a couple of positions but I think we're getting a pretty good squad with quality and some depth.

When you consider who didnt play this autumn, I think its clear that SB has done a fine job in building the squad. Now to bring through a hooker and SH and for some of those already blooded to kick on.

[Scrumhead]

We need a couple of hookers to emerge, a fourth lock/Martin to stop breaking, a second no8, two scrum halves, a couple of ICs to put together more than two good games, a second 13 plus Furbank to prove form and a third choice 15 to get some game time. Other than that it’s hunky dory.

Overall, are we quantity rather than quality? My optimism allows for building a team better than the sum of its parts. We have few, if any, absolute top stream talented players but we have depth.

My point is that in a lot of positions we don’t have depth.
Other than props, flankers, 10 and wings then I think we aren’t very deep at all.

A few bits to unpack here.

1) Are we quantity rather than quality? IMO - no. Personally, I find it a bit strange when I see people complaining about our lack of an obvious 4th choice prop or the perceived quality our 5th/6th choice locks.

Fasogbon and Sela may be young, but they’re also two highly promising players that looked a cut above their peers at U20 level and are already getting senior level starts.

Ewels and Isiekwe might not be popular choices but these are highly experienced guys. It also depends how you judge ‘quality’. Who else has players of their experience at test/Champions Cup experience that far down the depth chart?

If I take the first 40 players who are in genuine contention for the squad, I genuinely don’t think anyone there is lacking in quality. Some are excellent, some are good and some are perfectly good enough to be reliable back ups.

2) Centre depth isn’t low IMO. It’s inexperienced, but I think we have at least 5 or 6 centres who have shown they’re very capable at test level. After Lawrence and Slade, Dingwall, Atkinson, and Ojomoh have a handful of caps. However, Marchant’s return and Joseph’s start to life at Gloucester should add to that mix. The priority is building the right combinations and getting these fully up to speed in a relatively short space of time. Personally, I favour Atkinson and Lawrence, but I can see a strong argument for the Ojomoh, Lawrence club combination. The possibility of having another high quality club combination of Atkinson and Joseph is interesting too. Marchant is a classy player who might even push to start.

What is the actual yardstick for depth? South Africa have an insane supply of physical beasts and France seem to have a conveyor belt of high quality players in most positions, but it wasn’t that long ago they recalled Slimani who’s 35.

[Oakboy]

Overall, are we quantity rather than quality? My optimism allows for building a team better than the sum of its parts. We have few, if any, absolute top stream talented players but we have depth.

My point is that in a lot of positions we don’t have depth.
Other than props, flankers, 10 and wings then I think we aren’t very deep at all.

A few bits to unpack here.

1) Are we quantity rather than quality? IMO - no. Personally, I find it a bit strange when I see people complaining about our lack of an obvious 4th choice prop or the perceived quality our 5th/6th choice locks.

Fasogbon and Sela may be young, but they’re also two highly promising players that looked a cut above their peers at U20 level and are already getting senior level starts.

Ewels and Isiekwe might not be popular choices but these are highly experienced guys. It also depends how you judge ‘quality’. Who else has players of their experience at test/Champions Cup experience that far down the depth chart?

If I take the first 40 players who are in genuine contention for the squad, I genuinely don’t think anyone there is lacking in quality. Some are excellent, some are good and some are perfectly good enough to be reliable back ups.

2) Centre depth isn’t low IMO. It’s inexperienced, but I think we have at least 5 or 6 centres who have shown they’re very capable at test level. After Lawrence and Slade, Dingwall, Atkinson, and Ojomoh have a handful of caps. However, Marchant’s return and Joseph’s start to life at Gloucester should add to that mix. The priority is building the right combinations and getting these fully up to speed in a relatively short space of time. Personally, I favour Atkinson and Lawrence, but I can see a strong argument for the Ojomoh, Lawrence club combination. The possibility of having another high quality club combination of Atkinson and Joseph is interesting too. Marchant is a classy player who might even push to start.

What is the actual yardstick for depth? South Africa have an insane supply of physical beasts and France seem to have a conveyor belt of high quality players in most positions, but it wasn’t that long ago they recalled Slimani who’s 35.

Good round-up.

I suppose, to an extent, we should define quality. "Not more debates on 'world-class'," I hear. Let's just settle on a player being on a par (more or less) with his opposite number from an average of, say, France, NZ and Ireland in order to be of top international standard.

In that category we probably have four props, two hookers, two locks, six backrowers, one SH, three FHs, four wingers and one FB (that's 23 players or thereabouts).

We have some excellent potential at centre but none would step across to any of the other three countries' XVs and not weaken them at present, I'd suggest.

As a starting point, two years out from the RWC, that is the best position since 2001 by a distance.

[FKAS]

I agree wholeheartedly on the centre point. We don't lack quality there it's more experience. Scrumhead has mentioned 7 centres and not Beard or Woodward who'd both be in the England A squad if I was picking it. Ma'asi-White is developing nicely, not an option yet but could be soon, Gus Hall at 20 was the go to 13 for the last two England A games. Feels far more positive in terms of conveyor belt of talent in the centres than we've had in some time. The key will be getting caps and experience around that group to give us depth, that's where Rassie has been brilliant for SA. Rotate two or three out a week to give experience to squad players but keep the core strong, over a few years you start to develop a vast selection of players.

[Mellsblue]

We don’t actually have a centre that is proven as a quality test class player. Listing names shows depth but doesn’t show depth of proven test players which is what we should be talking about.

[SixAndAHalf]

My point is that in a lot of positions we don’t have depth.
Other than props, flankers, 10 and wings then I think we aren’t very deep at all.

A few bits to unpack here.

1) Are we quantity rather than quality? IMO - no. Personally, I find it a bit strange when I see people complaining about our lack of an obvious 4th choice prop or the perceived quality our 5th/6th choice locks.

Fasogbon and Sela may be young, but they’re also two highly promising players that looked a cut above their peers at U20 level and are already getting senior level starts.

Ewels and Isiekwe might not be popular choices but these are highly experienced guys. It also depends how you judge ‘quality’. Who else has players of their experience at test/Champions Cup experience that far down the depth chart?

If I take the first 40 players who are in genuine contention for the squad, I genuinely don’t think anyone there is lacking in quality. Some are excellent, some are good and some are perfectly good enough to be reliable back ups.

2) Centre depth isn’t low IMO. It’s inexperienced, but I think we have at least 5 or 6 centres who have shown they’re very capable at test level. After Lawrence and Slade, Dingwall, Atkinson, and Ojomoh have a handful of caps. However, Marchant’s return and Joseph’s start to life at Gloucester should add to that mix. The priority is building the right combinations and getting these fully up to speed in a relatively short space of time. Personally, I favour Atkinson and Lawrence, but I can see a strong argument for the Ojomoh, Lawrence club combination. The possibility of having another high quality club combination of Atkinson and Joseph is interesting too. Marchant is a classy player who might even push to start.

What is the actual yardstick for depth? South Africa have an insane supply of physical beasts and France seem to have a conveyor belt of high quality players in most positions, but it wasn’t that long ago they recalled Slimani who’s 35.

Good round-up.

I suppose, to an extent, we should define quality. "Not more debates on 'world-class'," I hear. Let's just settle on a player being on a par (more or less) with his opposite number from an average of, say, France, NZ and Ireland in order to be of top international standard.

In that category we probably have four props, two hookers, two locks, six backrowers, one SH, three FHs, four wingers and one FB (that's 23 players or thereabouts).

We have some excellent potential at centre but none would step across to any of the other three countries' XVs and not weaken them at present, I'd suggest.

As a starting point, two years out from the RWC, that is the best position since 2001 by a distance.

I don't think Freeman, Lawrence or Marchant would weaken those sides - we are pretty well set at 13 so it's finding the right balance at centre with the ultimate 10 and full back.

Hopefully Furbank can come back at the level he was before lessening the need for a playmaker at 12 and then perhaps I'd be looking at Ford-Lawrence-Freeman-Furbank with BJVR and Marchant coming in through 2026 and Atkinson, Dingwall, Ojomoh all pushing hard.

[Which Tyler]

We don’t actually have a centre that is proven as a quality test class player.

Except for Marchant and Lawrence

Listing names shows depth but doesn’t show depth of proven test players which is what we should be talking about.

Which is the point being made, isn't it?

[FKAS]

We don’t actually have a centre that is proven as a quality test class player. Listing names shows depth but doesn’t show depth of proven test players which is what we should be talking about.

Yeah that's why I said experience and talking about how Rassie rotated the squad. Need to get caps into these young guys so that they have the chance to fulfil their potential as international quality players.

We've done well so far with Dingwall, Lawrence and Freeman all showing they can do the job at international level. Seb Atkinson had a very good start pre injury and Marchant coming back adds another who we know can do the job.

[Danno]

Ojomoh didn't exactly do a 36 either.

[Mikey Brown]

Most of those guys have still only had a handful of games in a row for England at any one time though. There’s a lot of talent and we’re in a good spot, but being able to do a job is only the first step I think. I mean 36 had a pretty promising start didn’t he?

[Oakboy]

We don’t actually have a centre that is proven as a quality test class player. Listing names shows depth but doesn’t show depth of proven test players which is what we should be talking about.

Yeah that's why I said experience and talking about how Rassie rotated the squad. Need to get caps into these young guys so that they have the chance to fulfil their potential as international quality players.

We've done well so far with Dingwall, Lawrence and Freeman all showing they can do the job at international level. Seb Atkinson had a very good start pre injury and Marchant coming back adds another who we know can do the job.

Yes, the 6N selection at centre will be fascinating. At 12, Dingwall and Ojomoh showed merit in the AIs. Atkinson looked OK in Argentina. At 13, Freeman and Lawrence looked good. Marchant won't be available (as I understand it).

Another factor that interests me is how the 6:2 split will be handled (assuming SB continues with that bench style). Furbank back, fully fit at FB, might push Marcus off the bench in favour of a gas merchant (if he is considered adequate FH cover). Would that also be slightly in favour of Dingwall at 12?

[Mellsblue]

We don’t actually have a centre that is proven as a quality test class player.

Except for Marchant and Lawrence

Listing names shows depth but doesn’t show depth of proven test players which is what we should be talking about.

Which is the point being made, isn't it?

Lawrence has more poor games than good, imo, albeit was a step up on his mean in the AIs. I’ll pass judgement on Marchant when I’ve seen him play a few test matches.

[Mellsblue]

We don’t actually have a centre that is proven as a quality test class player. Listing names shows depth but doesn’t show depth of proven test players which is what we should be talking about.

Yeah that's why I said experience and talking about how Rassie rotated the squad. Need to get caps into these young guys so that they have the chance to fulfil their potential as international quality players.

We've done well so far with Dingwall, Lawrence and Freeman all showing they can do the job at international level. Seb Atkinson had a very good start pre injury and Marchant coming back adds another who we know can do the job.

I know it’s a rarity but I was agreeing with you.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I think saying Atkinson was OK is underselling it a tad!

[FKAS]

We don’t actually have a centre that is proven as a quality test class player. Listing names shows depth but doesn’t show depth of proven test players which is what we should be talking about.

Yeah that's why I said experience and talking about how Rassie rotated the squad. Need to get caps into these young guys so that they have the chance to fulfil their potential as international quality players.

We've done well so far with Dingwall, Lawrence and Freeman all showing they can do the job at international level. Seb Atkinson had a very good start pre injury and Marchant coming back adds another who we know can do the job.

I know it’s a rarity but I was agreeing with you.

your new year's resolution coming early

[Scrumhead]

We don’t actually have a centre that is proven as a quality test class player.

Except for Marchant and Lawrence

Listing names shows depth but doesn’t show depth of proven test players which is what we should be talking about.

Which is the point being made, isn't it?

Lawrence has more poor games than good, imo, albeit was a step up on his mean in the AIs. I’ll pass judgement on Marchant when I’ve seen him play a few test matches.

Eh? Marchant’s already had several good games for England.

Your definition of ‘proven’ seems very different to mine. Lawrence and Slade are both hit and miss but to suggest they’re unproven is exceptionally harsh IMO. Dingwall, Ojomoh, Atkinson and Joseph are unproven but that’s what I’d expect for guys with a handful of caps. Arguably Ojomoh and Atkinson should have been involved sooner, but not by that much.

It’s an area that needs to be prioritised but lack of experience doesn’t necessarily mean a player isn’t or can’t be perfectly good enough.

Again, give me the yardstick we’re measuring this by? How many ‘proven’ centres do most countries have? For example, France’s centres are mostly pretty inexperienced. Fickou is the exception. Ireland have Aki, Henshaw (who are both past their best), Ringrose and McCloskey (who’s also 33) then a huge drop off. NZ have Jordie Barrett, Ioane and Leinert-Brown then a big drop off in experience/ability.

Genuinely, I’m looking around at the age profile and quality of other squads and feeling very happy about ours.

[Oakboy]

I think saying Atkinson was OK is underselling it a tad!

Is it about consistency and mistake avoidance with him? Lots of you are more convinced, I accept.

To be fair to SB, it won't be easy to give everyone game time. I'd pick a back line of 9. Mitchell, 10. Fin, 11. IFW, 12. Dingwall, 13. Freeman, 14. Roebuck/Arundell, 15. Furbank for the 6N opener but SB won't. He'll agree on 9 and 11 but beyond that? Freeman will start but in which shirt?

[FKAS]

I think saying Atkinson was OK is underselling it a tad!

Is it about consistency and mistake avoidance with him? Lots of you are more convinced, I accept.

To be fair to SB, it won't be easy to give everyone game time. I'd pick a back line of 9. Mitchell, 10. Fin, 11. IFW, 12. Dingwall, 13. Freeman, 14. Roebuck/Arundell, 15. Furbank for the 6N opener but SB won't. He'll agree on 9 and 11 but beyond that? Freeman will start but in which shirt?

I'd be surprised if Arundell starts but otherwise there's a great chance that sides starts if all are fit. Ford at 10, maybe given his form in the Autumn.

[Mellsblue]

Except for Marchant and Lawrence


Which is the point being made, isn't it?

Lawrence has more poor games than good, imo, albeit was a step up on his mean in the AIs. I’ll pass judgement on Marchant when I’ve seen him play a few test matches.

Eh? Marchant’s already had several good games for England.

Your definition of ‘proven’ seems very different to mine. Lawrence and Slade are both hit and miss but to suggest they’re unproven is exceptionally harsh IMO. Dingwall, Ojomoh, Atkinson and Joseph are unproven but that’s what I’d expect for guys with a handful of caps. Arguably Ojomoh and Atkinson should have been involved sooner, but not by that much.

It’s an area that needs to be prioritised but lack of experience doesn’t necessarily mean a player isn’t or can’t be perfectly good enough.

Again, give me the yardstick we’re measuring this by? How many ‘proven’ centres do most countries have? For example, France’s centres are mostly pretty inexperienced. Fickou is the exception. Ireland have Aki, Henshaw (who are both past their best), Ringrose and McCloskey (who’s also 33) then a huge drop off. NZ have Jordie Barrett, Ioane and Leinert-Brown then a big drop off in experience/ability.

Genuinely, I’m looking around at the age profile and quality of other squads and feeling very happy about ours.

Marchant hasn’t played for England in years so I’m reserving judgement until I’ve seen him play some test rugby again.

Proven to me is definitely having more than 7, 2 & 2 caps as Dingers, Atkinson and Ojomoh have. Or 2 caps at OC as Freeman has. Not sure how that’s even arguable. Perhaps if Dingwall had been good to excellent in all 7 caps but he’s been poor to good, imo.

[Danno]

With you on Dingwall. He's been fine. But I don't really want fine, I want - for example - Ojomoh bashing through tackles one minute and then seeing what's on after Ford realises things are going nowhere and delivering the ball on a kicked plate for IFW to score the next minute.

[Mellsblue]

With you on Dingwall. He's been fine. But I don't really want fine, I want - for example - Ojomoh bashing through tackles one minute and then seeing what's on after Ford realises things are going nowhere and delivering the ball on a kicked plate for IFW to score the next minute.

Not sure if it’s been discussed, I’m of the thought that the ojomoh crossfield was a planned move?

[Danno]

With you on Dingwall. He's been fine. But I don't really want fine, I want - for example - Ojomoh bashing through tackles one minute and then seeing what's on after Ford realises things are going nowhere and delivering the ball on a kicked plate for IFW to score the next minute.

Not sure if it’s been discussed, I’m of the thought that the ojomoh crossfield was planned move?

Whatever works. It was absolutely perfect.