Welsh Squad

[Sandydragon]

Wainwright looked like he deserved to be there. The others not so much.

[bruce]

Fuck me we were awful and we still would have got a hiding but did we get anything out of that ref?

[Sandydragon]

Fuck me we were awful and we still would have got a hiding but did we get anything out of that ref?

I’m debating the final yellow for Plumtree, the tackled player was dropping as he was tackled. Thomas’ yellow was just insane.

He game a scrum penalty against us which was a joke, and others which looked a bit suspect as well. And calling back the Lake tap and go just seemed very pedantic.

Admittedly we were crap but his penalties, not all of which were fair, gave the English fantastic field position. And we won’t mention offside at the ruck which was largely ignored until Williams threw the ball into Genge and it just couldn’t be missed.

He was way past pedantic and ina game like rugby the ref can ruin the match by constantly reaching for his whistle.

[newgalesurf]

First time I gave up watching a 6N game in the first half.

So frustrating. What the hell is wrong when you can’t get the basics of the game right. Set piece is atrocious. Line out horrible. Stupid penalties took promising attacking positions to deep defending and conceding tries

So removing a team will improve the talent pool. How can teams be blamed for players basic skills. Thought a professional player should practice their job in their own time

[UKHamlet]

The problem for Wales is simple. Size. We have two props who would look good in my front garden with fishing rods, a pair of locks who wouldn’t look out of place in the reed section of an orchestra, and a back row who miss their buddies, the other four dwarves. The backs are okay. When they have decent ball to use, they look creative, but that happened twice in eighty minutes. There is an old rugby adage, “Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.” Solve the forward problem, solve the team problem.

Which brings me back to Deaves and Morse, both of whom are capable players, but in the modern size-oriented game, become a luxury. We can afford one, but not two. Same goes for the second row. We have two willowy string beans, but we need an enforcer. A temporary expedient would be Jake in for Daf - if he’s fit. I really don’t know what to do at tighthead. We have no destructive monsters. At loose head, Carre needs to start. He’s not the best scrummager but he has bulk, he carries well, and he’s ginger. The last bit is worth five points. At hooker, the consensus is Lake is the only option. He’s fucking useless. And he’s thick. And he’s uninspiring.

[normanski]

That just about sums it up, Hammy.

It was men against boys, the u-14s playing an u-18 side. While the ref didn’t help with his constant whistle blowing, our ill discipline from the off was our undoing. You can’t stay in a game with two periods of thirteen players against a well structured side like England.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Fuck me we were awful and we still would have got a hiding but did we get anything out of that ref?

I’m debating the final yellow for Plumtree, the tackled player was dropping as he was tackled. Thomas’ yellow was just insane.

He game a scrum penalty against us which was a joke, and others which looked a bit suspect as well. And calling back the Lake tap and go just seemed very pedantic.

Admittedly we were crap but his penalties, not all of which were fair, gave the English fantastic field position. And we won’t mention offside at the ruck which was largely ignored until Williams threw the ball into Genge and it just couldn’t be missed.

He was way past pedantic and in a game like rugby the ref can ruin the match by constantly reaching for his whistle.

Most refs would do their best to avoid giving two yellows in rapid succession. This one seemed pretty keen to do it to us.

Having said that, when our team's on a warning why are so dumb that we don't alter our approach? In a game like that (constantly on the back foot) it's better to concede a try than to get a yellow which will make us concede several.

[pompey-zebra]

Fuck me we were awful and we still would have got a hiding but did we get anything out of that ref?

I’m debating the final yellow for Plumtree, the tackled player was dropping as he was tackled. Thomas’ yellow was just insane.

He game a scrum penalty against us which was a joke, and others which looked a bit suspect as well. And calling back the Lake tap and go just seemed very pedantic.

Admittedly we were crap but his penalties, not all of which were fair, gave the English fantastic field position. And we won’t mention offside at the ruck which was largely ignored until Williams threw the ball into Genge and it just couldn’t be missed.

He was way past pedantic and in a game like rugby the ref can ruin the match by constantly reaching for his whistle.

Most refs would do their best to avoid giving two yellows in rapid succession. This one seemed pretty keen to do it to us.

Having said that, when our team's on a warning why are so dumb that we don't alter our approach? In a game like that (constantly on the back foot) it's better to concede a try than to get a yellow which will make us concede several.

Yep, don't compound one error, with another. I think that even by that stage, their brains were scrambled. These are professional rugby players who seemed unable to carry out even the basics of the sport effectively.

[Sourdust]

The problem for Wales is simple. Size.

This.

We are Japan.

Everyone else is Godzilla.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The problem for Wales is simple. Size. We have two props who would look good in my front garden with fishing rods, a pair of locks who wouldn’t look out of place in the reed section of an orchestra, and a back row who miss their buddies, the other four dwarves. The backs are okay. When they have decent ball to use, they look creative, but that happened twice in eighty minutes. There is an old rugby adage, “Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.” Solve the forward problem, solve the team problem.

Which brings me back to Deaves and Morse, both of whom are capable players, but in the modern size-oriented game, become a luxury. We can afford one, but not two. Same goes for the second row. We have two willowy string beans, but we need an enforcer. A temporary expedient would be Jake in for Daf - if he’s fit. I really don’t know what to do at tighthead. We have no destructive monsters. At loose head, Carre needs to start. He’s not the best scrummager but he has bulk, he carries well, and he’s ginger. The last bit is worth five points. At hooker, the consensus is Lake is the only option. He’s fucking useless. And he’s thick. And he’s uninspiring.

Agreed on size, particularly vs England, France and SA.

Agreed on Carre starting, but there are big doubts eg 1 tackle in 29 minutes. Lake's throwing negates his size . . . I'd start Elias. Tight head, I think Griffin was okay. Good tackler: 11 in 51 minutes. Francis was also decent though.

Jenkins tackles like a machine, he's one of our best players and plays for 80. He should be captain. Paired with him, yeah an enforcer. Rhys Davies is an enforcer option, although I'd be thinking about him at 6. Outside the squad, agreed about Ball.

Mann is busy but is teeny for a 6. From the squad I'd try Rhys Davies. Outside the squad, Ratti's the best option. Moriarty also. Plumtree is big but a fucking liability as we saw again yesterday. At 7 we can afford a smaller player (Jac Morgan is only 182cm), but I think MacLeod was pretty good, and is apparently 188cm. At international level I think Morse should be a 7 or bench cover. We will look a bit better with Cracknell, I think, although again he is no giant. NB Deaves put in 10 tackles in 27 minutes, Mann 9 tackles in 51, MacLeod 12 in 53.

James was good and I can't wait to see him paired with Llewellyn.

Mee was very busy (9 tackles in 53 mins) but missed a few (as did LRZ). Adams only made 4 in 80. Grady 2 in 27 minutes. Perhaps it would be better to have Mee and Rogers starting.

Stats are interesting. Tackles per minute is revealing. Hardy is top but that was 1 tackle in 1 minute so not a sensible number. After that, Deaves was significantly above the rest at 0.36 tackles per minute. After him our next best were Jenkins* and MacLeod (0.25), Mee, Lake and Mann (0.23), Griffin (0.22). Our worst were Adams (0.06), Carre (0.05) and Belcher (0.04). For a back-rower, Plumtree was poor at 0.10

* And NB Jenkins managed this work rate for 80 minutes so has the best engine there.

https://www.rugbypass.com/live/england- ... /?g=947106

Some other fun stats: Wales 75% scrum success, England 100%, Wales 76% lineout success, England 95%.

But we beat them for conversion success: 100%. They only got 4 out of 7. Hah!

[Son of Mathonwy]

The problem for Wales is simple. Size.

This.

We are Japan.

Everyone else is Godzilla.

That's why we can only beat Japan.

[Sandydragon]

I’d like to say be calmed down over night but that would be a lie.

Our set piece was abysmal. Scrum wise we got in the wrong side of the ref. But th lineout was a shocker. As the main set piece it needs to function even when under pressure. It’s not all Lakes fault, but he was bloody awful yesterday and nothing he did around the park made up for a poor set piece, a stupid yellow and lack of any captaincy ability.

We pick a ball playing IC then kick the leather off the ball. Why? Some of our kicks were contactable. Many weren’t. Not good enough.

Plumtree was daft for his yellow, but he was trying a desperate tackle after two other players, be of whom (Hardy) had just someon the pitch, were too busy day dreaming to notice they might have to defend.

Thomas’ yellow was utter bollocks. If he was preventing a try then why no penalty try? He seemed to start ripping the ball while on his feet and on many days that wouldn’t have been penalised. But I don’t see many positives from his performance especially gifting a try.

Against a monster French pack we need a reinforced pack. Start with Carre and Francis. Not Lake at hooker. There are better players at the dragons but since they are not in the squad I’d go for Elias. Replace Beard. Bring Craxknell back into the back row. I thought Deaves went well yesterday. I’d start him.

Move James to IC, or keep him at 13 and bring in Watkin. If our tic tacs are to kick so much then let’s have a centre partnership that is more solid. I’d keep the back three the same.

But there has to be changes following yesterdays disaster.

[Sandydragon]

The other thought that springs to mind is the disruption around the regions. I think that’s a poor excuse. Most of the players in the squad yesterday aren’t affected by the loss of the Ospreys.

And size wise we aren’t that far off the races. It wasn’t that like ago that we were physically as strong as other nations, so clearly we are lacking conditioning.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I’d like to say be calmed down over night but that would be a lie.

Our set piece was abysmal. Scrum wise we got in the wrong side of the ref. But th lineout was a shocker. As the main set piece it needs to function even when under pressure. It’s not all Lakes fault, but he was bloody awful yesterday and nothing he did around the park made up for a poor set piece, a stupid yellow and lack of any captaincy ability.

We pick a ball playing IC then kick the leather off the ball. Why? Some of our kicks were contactable. Many weren’t. Not good enough.

Plumtree was daft for his yellow, but he was trying a desperate tackle after two other players, be of whom (Hardy) had just someon the pitch, were too busy day dreaming to notice they might have to defend.

Thomas’ yellow was utter bollocks. If he was preventing a try then why no penalty try? He seemed to start ripping the ball while on his feet and on many days that wouldn’t have been penalised. But I don’t see many positives from his performance especially gifting a try.

Against a monster French pack we need a reinforced pack. Start with Carre and Francis. Not Lake at hooker. There are better players at the dragons but since they are not in the squad I’d go for Elias. Replace Beard. Bring Craxknell back into the back row. I thought Deaves went well yesterday. I’d start him.

Move James to IC, or keep him at 13 and bring in Watkin. If our tic tacs are to kick so much then let’s have a centre partnership that is more solid. I’d keep the back three the same.

But there has to be changes following yesterdays disaster.

I've a horrible feeling he'll give them a chance to redeem themselves. Or is that just what I've come to expect from Gatland, bloody-minded in the face of reality?

[Son of Mathonwy]

The other thought that springs to mind is the disruption around the regions. I think that’s a poor excuse. Most of the players in the squad yesterday aren’t affected by the loss of the Ospreys.

And size wise we aren’t that far off the races. It wasn’t that like ago that we were physically as strong as other nations, so clearly we are lacking conditioning.

6 of them play in England, another 2 in France, they should be unaffected by the WRU's shit-show*. I don't really get it. Is their confidence so low that they're missing a vital few percent off their performances so they've lost before they've begun?

* on the other hand, with that many coming from outside it has to hit our cohesion in the first match together.

[Puja]

Fuck me we were awful and we still would have got a hiding but did we get anything out of that ref?

I’m debating the final yellow for Plumtree, the tackled player was dropping as he was tackled. Thomas’ yellow was just insane.

Plumtree was desperately unlucky - if Pollock scores, that's not a yellow in the slightest, but unfortunately Plumtree tackled him into touch by his head and the offence prevented the try being scored, which meant it had to be a yellow by the current laws.

Lake's one was an act of egregious stupidity that should see him lose the captaincy - blatant and cynical offence to stop a try, right in front of the referee. The only thought process that makes sense to me is that he might've thought that the referee wouldn't have the minerals to give a yellow card immediately after the first and he would be immune, but even if that was the case, it was still an incredibly stupid gamble and not what should be expected from a captain.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Fuck me we were awful and we still would have got a hiding but did we get anything out of that ref?

I’m debating the final yellow for Plumtree, the tackled player was dropping as he was tackled. Thomas’ yellow was just insane.

Plumtree was desperately unlucky - if Pollock scores, that's not a yellow in the slightest, but unfortunately Plumtree tackled him into touch by his head and the offence prevented the try being scored, which meant it had to be a yellow by the current laws.

Lake's one was an act of egregious stupidity that should see him lose the captaincy - blatant and cynical offence to stop a try, right in front of the referee. The only thought process that makes sense to me is that he might've thought that the referee wouldn't have the minerals to give a yellow card immediately after the first and he would be immune, but even if that was the case, it was still an incredibly stupid gamble and not what should be expected from a captain.

Puja

I’m sure Lake felt that he would only gift a penalty following the card. But I agree it was foolish.

Plumtree was a desperation tackle.

Thomas was just a bad refereeing decision.

[Sandydragon]

The other thought that springs to mind is the disruption around the regions. I think that’s a poor excuse. Most of the players in the squad yesterday aren’t affected by the loss of the Ospreys.

And size wise we aren’t that far off the races. It wasn’t that like ago that we were physically as strong as other nations, so clearly we are lacking conditioning.

6 of them play in England, another 2 in France, they should be unaffected by the WRU's shit-show*. I don't really get it. Is their confidence so low that they're missing a vital few percent off their performances so they've lost before they've begun?

* on the other hand, with that many coming from outside it has to hit our cohesion in the first match together.

Quite. I can understand a young player like Dan Edwards not focusing completely due to the issues at the Ospreys. But for most, that’s a poor excuse. One of our more noticeable players was Deaves so the Ospreys situation didn’t impact his game.

I sense the game plan isn’t understood and we aren’t matching players to the game plan. This obsession with a ball playing IC isn’t working for us overall, not against power teams like England.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Fuck me we were awful and we still would have got a hiding but did we get anything out of that ref?

I’m debating the final yellow for Plumtree, the tackled player was dropping as he was tackled. Thomas’ yellow was just insane.

Plumtree was desperately unlucky - if Pollock scores, that's not a yellow in the slightest, but unfortunately Plumtree tackled him into touch by his head and the offence prevented the try being scored, which meant it had to be a yellow by the current laws.

Lake's one was an act of egregious stupidity that should see him lose the captaincy - blatant and cynical offence to stop a try, right in front of the referee. The only thought process that makes sense to me is that he might've thought that the referee wouldn't have the minerals to give a yellow card immediately after the first and he would be immune, but even if that was the case, it was still an incredibly stupid gamble and not what should be expected from a captain.

Puja

Agree, Plumtree is one of the few players who get it! I thought the Lake yellow was harsh as the maul was breaking up, what was he supposed to do? Oh and anyone who advocates dropping Beard has absolutely no clue about forward play.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Fuck me we were awful and we still would have got a hiding but did we get anything out of that ref?

I’m debating the final yellow for Plumtree, the tackled player was dropping as he was tackled. Thomas’ yellow was just insane.

Plumtree was desperately unlucky - if Pollock scores, that's not a yellow in the slightest, but unfortunately Plumtree tackled him into touch by his head and the offence prevented the try being scored, which meant it had to be a yellow by the current laws.

Lake's one was an act of egregious stupidity that should see him lose the captaincy - blatant and cynical offence to stop a try, right in front of the referee. The only thought process that makes sense to me is that he might've thought that the referee wouldn't have the minerals to give a yellow card immediately after the first and he would be immune, but even if that was the case, it was still an incredibly stupid gamble and not what should be expected from a captain.

Puja

The law around penalty tries is terrible. It should never be the case that an attacking team is better off if they don't score a try.

Having said that, the players all know the laws (presumably?) however badly written they are.

[Sandydragon]

I’m debating the final yellow for Plumtree, the tackled player was dropping as he was tackled. Thomas’ yellow was just insane.

Plumtree was desperately unlucky - if Pollock scores, that's not a yellow in the slightest, but unfortunately Plumtree tackled him into touch by his head and the offence prevented the try being scored, which meant it had to be a yellow by the current laws.

Lake's one was an act of egregious stupidity that should see him lose the captaincy - blatant and cynical offence to stop a try, right in front of the referee. The only thought process that makes sense to me is that he might've thought that the referee wouldn't have the minerals to give a yellow card immediately after the first and he would be immune, but even if that was the case, it was still an incredibly stupid gamble and not what should be expected from a captain.

Puja

The law around penalty tries is terrible. It should never be the case that an attacking team is better off if they don't score a try.

Having said that, the players all know the laws (presumably?) however badly written they are.

The problem is that there are certain situations when it’s hard not to tackle high when an opposition player is dropping. Plumtree would have been better off letting Pollock score, but that’s not something you want to coach.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Plumtree was desperately unlucky - if Pollock scores, that's not a yellow in the slightest, but unfortunately Plumtree tackled him into touch by his head and the offence prevented the try being scored, which meant it had to be a yellow by the current laws.

Lake's one was an act of egregious stupidity that should see him lose the captaincy - blatant and cynical offence to stop a try, right in front of the referee. The only thought process that makes sense to me is that he might've thought that the referee wouldn't have the minerals to give a yellow card immediately after the first and he would be immune, but even if that was the case, it was still an incredibly stupid gamble and not what should be expected from a captain.

Puja

The law around penalty tries is terrible. It should never be the case that an attacking team is better off if they don't score a try.

Having said that, the players all know the laws (presumably?) however badly written they are.

The problem is that there are certain situations when it’s hard not to tackle high when an opposition player is dropping. Plumtree would have been better off letting Pollock score, but that’s not something you want to coach.

I dont think anyone can blame Plumtree for that one.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Plumtree was desperately unlucky - if Pollock scores, that's not a yellow in the slightest, but unfortunately Plumtree tackled him into touch by his head and the offence prevented the try being scored, which meant it had to be a yellow by the current laws.

Lake's one was an act of egregious stupidity that should see him lose the captaincy - blatant and cynical offence to stop a try, right in front of the referee. The only thought process that makes sense to me is that he might've thought that the referee wouldn't have the minerals to give a yellow card immediately after the first and he would be immune, but even if that was the case, it was still an incredibly stupid gamble and not what should be expected from a captain.

Puja

The law around penalty tries is terrible. It should never be the case that an attacking team is better off if they don't score a try.

Having said that, the players all know the laws (presumably?) however badly written they are.

The problem is that there are certain situations when it’s hard not to tackle high when an opposition player is dropping. Plumtree would have been better off letting Pollock score, but that’s not something you want to coach.

We need our players to be more careful when it comes to things that might get carded. When a team is struggling in a match its often a card that opens the floodgates and effectively loses the game. Sometimes we need to accept that a try's probably going to come so let's not make it any worse than that . . . and maybe a 5 pointer rather than a 7 point penalty try.

Obviously the laws/interpretations could be improved but players need to work within the current system.

[MrK]

The problem for Wales is simple. Size. We have two props who would look good in my front garden with fishing rods, a pair of locks who wouldn’t look out of place in the reed section of an orchestra, and a back row who miss their buddies, the other four dwarves. The backs are okay. When they have decent ball to use, they look creative, but that happened twice in eighty minutes. There is an old rugby adage, “Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.” Solve the forward problem, solve the team problem.

Which brings me back to Deaves and Morse, both of whom are capable players, but in the modern size-oriented game, become a luxury. We can afford one, but not two. Same goes for the second row. We have two willowy string beans, but we need an enforcer. A temporary expedient would be Jake in for Daf - if he’s fit. I really don’t know what to do at tighthead. We have no destructive monsters. At loose head, Carre needs to start. He’s not the best scrummager but he has bulk, he carries well, and he’s ginger. The last bit is worth five points. At hooker, the consensus is Lake is the only option. He’s fucking useless. And he’s thick. And he’s uninspiring.

I disagree with your first argument. Its not size. Its Power. We were actually heavier in the pack, and around the same height metrics too. In fact when Carre and Francis and Plumtree were on, we were considerably "bigger". The difference is in how we apply that size, its dynamism, intent and conditioning. Our power to weight ratio must be the lowest in world rugby. For me this is a mindset thing - call it "dog", call it aggression, call it what you want. But when we go into contact, in either defence or attack, we lack the necessary impact. We have to address this, Id rather a team of smaller players who punch above their weight than what we currently have, which is a pack of decent size ,with the effectiveness of a powder puff. Beard, Jenkins, Mann (at 6) are not the answer.

I agree with Carre starting, Id actually start with Francis too - Hooker is a nightmare, we have 2 powerful hookers in the squad that cant hit a lineout, and 1 who can. Id bench Lake I agree with you, unisnspiring, and start the other one who cant throw. The Second Row is a blindspot for the selectors, Beard and Jenkins just do not work together, Id rather we had 2 new locks but I cant see that happening, Id go Rhys Davies and pick one from Beard/Jenkins , and then the backrow has to be Wainwright, Botham, Cracknell - I was an advocate of McLeod, but Botham has more dog - he'd get my vote.

Id then have Lake, Smith and Griffin on the Bench (id rather chuck Burrows in but that aint gonna happen) - and then Carter or F Thomas (Id have Ball but that aint gonna happen) and probably McLeod (Id have Moriaty) on the bench along with Deaves (the luxury - but he does punch above his weight).

None of this will happen, and we will probably have the age old problem of Welsh rugby management "the boys were pretty disappointed with how they performed but all deserve a chance to put it right this week"... they dont!

[Son of Mathonwy]

None of this will happen, and we will probably have the age old problem of Welsh rugby management "the boys were pretty disappointed with how they performed but all deserve a chance to put it right this week"... they dont!

If I hear anyone say 'the boys are chomping at the bit to make amends' it will probably kill me.