All Blacks vs Pumas in Sucktown: poll included

[morepork]

NZ is part of Polynesia you doghnut.

[rowan]

It was an excellent post by Lizard. But rugby has always been New Zealand's national game, yet South Africa held the edge throughout the amateur era. Oh, the Kiwis are quick to blame the refereeing, altitude and the non-eligibility of Maori players for tours to the republic during much of that era, but how about the five grandslams the Boks had achieved before the All Blacks managed their first? How about the fact SA had won a series in New Zealand (37) as well? That South Africa's advantage was generally in the backs is hardly surprising, given the warmer climate and firmer grounds. Australia, also, was beginning to gain an edge on NZ in that department in the 1980s. That's why the changing demographics were such a Godsend to New Zealand, and very timely as well, coinciding with the advent of the World Cup and professionalism. Game-breakers like Inga, Cullen, Jonah & Vindiri not only helped the ABs turn the tables on the Wallabies & SA (once the Boks came out of isolation), they revolutionized the game in New Zealand - which henceforth became more expansive. Perhaps another fortunate coincidence was the sudden rise to prominence of the Hong Kong 7s toward the end of the amateur era. That's where a large number of New Zealand's future Polynesian backline stars first made their mark.

[morepork]

I'm guessing you didn't follow much domestic rugby league Rowan.

[rowan]

In New Zealand? Did anybody?

[morepork]

In New Zealand? Did anybody?

I grew up playing it in Auckland in the '80s. Not all sports were Lilly White chief....

[rowan]

I didn't say they were. But given Pacific Island immigration to New Zealand only began in earnest in the latter half of the 20th century, especially the 1960s, it's unlikely there were many NZ-born Pacific Islanders in any New Zealand sport at senior level prior to the 1980s. I believe Olsen Filipaina (who I recall, btw) was one of th first and has even been described as the 'trailblazer' for players of Pacific Island origin in the XIII man game (this occurring in the 80s). By the end of that decade the Kiwis were Polynesian-dominated, as I recall - no doubt due in part to the reasons I've already mentioned in an earlier post. I sense you are reading too much into my comments and seeing things which are not actually there.

NB: I'm also aware All Blacks legend Bryan Williams came to prominence on the 1970 tour of SA.

[morepork]

James Leuluai, Darryl Williams, the Sorrenson brothers, all the Tuimavaves, Don and Duane Mann, Fred Ah Kuoi, etc etc etc.

Olsen is a legend because he got the better of Wally Lewis in the '85 series and he was the all time test point top dog up until about 1990. His trailblazing was done in Australia in the NRL where he experienced racism like he had never seen back home, and was a role model for young Polynesian boys playing the game (of which there were lots).

[rowan]

Yes, I remember all that, including the Filipaina-Lewis showdown. I think a few of the guys you mentioned there played for NZ Maori, didn't they? Mixed-race, I suppose, as Auckland had already become a bit of a melting pot by that stage.

Still not sure where you're going with this, however. It appears to support, not refute, what I wrote about the changing demographics at that time. The effects no doubt kicked in a little earlier in Auckland, of course.

[morepork]

Bored now.

[rowan]

Of course, there are many other factors to consider here, especially from the South African perspective. They were unbeaten in a series during the entire first half of the 20th century when all factors were working in their favor, but they suffered increasingly through isolation at the end of the amateur era, and since the end of Apartheid the XV man code has no longer been regarded as the national sport and appears to have lost government backing to some extent. On the other hand, they have begun to tap into their substantial non-white population, belatedly, so it'll be interesting to see where that takes them in the decades to come.

[Lizard]

I agree that for most of the amateur era the Springboks had the edge over the All Blacks. I'm not sure that it is fair to use the number of grand slams as a comparison to back that point up. Have a look at how many attempts each country had. My recollection is that New Zealand had very few compared to South Africa and Australia.

[Lizard]

Australia of course have the unique distinction of the Mals Dnarg, by losing against every Home Nation in one tour.

[rowan]

NZ were thwarted during arguably the two greatest eras in their pre-World Cup history, during the Invincibles tour of the mid-20s when a dispute over gate-takings caused Scotland to pull out, and in 67 when an outbreak of Foot & Mouth disease prevented the All Blacks from playing in Ireland. That aside, they tried & failed in 05, 35, 53, 64 & 72. Meanwhile, SA failed in 06 & 70, but in between they completed successive slams in 12, 31, 51 & 60, scoring 189 points to 25 in total, conceding no more than 5 points in any one of those 16 matches, and notching record 38-0 & 44-0 wins over Ireland in 12 & Scotland in 51 into the bargain. They were in a class of their own.

Perhaps it's time they gave the Pumas a shot...

[Which Tyler]

NZ were thwarted during arguably the two greatest eras in their pre-World Cup history, during the Invincibles tour of the mid-20s when a dispute over gate-takings caused Scotland to pull out...

Something there sounds familiar

[Spy]

NZ were thwarted during arguably the two greatest eras in their pre-World Cup history, during the Invincibles tour of the mid-20s when a dispute over gate-takings caused Scotland to pull out...

Something there sounds familiar

Nice .

Not quite the same situation. IIRC, the Scots thought the 1905 Originals tour was going to be a fizzer, and would only pay a minimal fee to NZ. The Originals management negotiated a portion of the gate sales instead, which Scotland agreed to. Of course, the Originals were very successful, grounds sold out, including the Scotland Test, and the Originals did well on the deal.

Roll around 1924/25 and the Scots were still in a huff about it, and refused to play the NZ side. 20 years later. That's some serious grudge-holding.

[Lizard]

Ah. Thanks.