Bible more Violent than Quran

[BBD]

Is there a similar study that looks at the coverage of peace, good will, kindness, charitable acts etc? in the interest of completeness and balance

[SerjeantWildgoose]

Is there a similar study that looks at the coverage of peace, good will, kindness, charitable acts etc? in the interest of completeness and balance

What? In WiW's toast?

I don't think you'll find much by way of completeness or balance in a few rounds of Brennans. A toast only diet will not fulfil the body's needs and will lead to vitamin deficiency and nutritional-deficient ailments such as rickets, scurvey and Yorkshire.

[rowan]

Is there a similar study that looks at the coverage of peace, good will, kindness, charitable acts etc? in the interest of completeness and balance

Just reverse the one mentioned in the Independent. As for the rest of it, I'm not sure. The most charitable people in the US, in terms of amounts of money given to charity in the name of religion, are the Mormons. I'm not sure, but I think their brand of Christianity adheres to the belief that the lost tribes of Israel sailed out of the Mediterranean and across the Athlantic to the Americas where they became Indians. A lot of Polynesians are also Mormons. 1980/1990s Samoan-New Zealand rugby star Michael Jones, for example, refused to play on Sundays leading to his omission from the 95 RWC squad.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

Sure, that's not restricted to Mormons. The Jocks are forever unearthing some monstrously talented Calvinist who would beat the world as long as it didn't need beating on a Sunday.

I remember Jones, but Euan Murray is still playing for Scotland - albeit not on a Sunday - and went on tour with the Lions in 2009. I'm not sure where he stands on slaying first born sons or incinerating entire city populaces because of an aul bit of unrepented sin.

[rowan]

& then you've got Tom Cruise, John Travolta and others within the Church of Scientology believing we are all descended from aliens and a spaceship is out there somewhere just waiting to whisk its followers off to some heavenly galaxy as soon as the time is right. Those suckers tried to recruit me once after I did a free IQ test in their Auckland office (saw the ad on the door). Took me years to shake them off, even after I'd moved back to Wellington. Scary people, I can tell you

[Donny osmond]

Sure, that's not restricted to Mormons. The Jocks are forever unearthing some monstrously talented Calvinist who would beat the world as long as it didn't need beating on a Sunday.

I remember Jones, but Euan Murray is still playing for Scotland - albeit not on a Sunday - and went on tour with the Lions in 2009. I'm not sure where he stands on slaying first born sons or incinerating entire city populaces because of an aul bit of unrepented sin.

Murray wasn't so much uncovered as had his religion beaten into him. Literally. Took a massive and sickening blow to the head one game, cant remember who against but even from the sidelines it was horrible to see. When he came to, he'd found God in a big way, and has kept in close contact with the big guy ever since.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

Murray wasn't so much uncovered as had his religion beaten into him. Literally.

Clearly he was schooled by the Christian Brothers.

Did I say Euan Murray? Meant Eric Liddle.

[morepork]

& then you've got Tom Cruise, John Travolta and others within the Church of Scientology believing we are all descended from aliens and a spaceship is out there somewhere just waiting to whisk its followers off to some heavenly galaxy as soon as the time is right. Those suckers tried to recruit me once after I did a free IQ test in their Auckland office (saw the ad on the door). Took me years to shake them off, even after I'd moved back to Wellington. Scary people, I can tell you

The one just below Albert Park?

[Lizard]

There were a couple of major schisms long before the protesters of northern Europe broke with the Catholics of southern Europe and became the Protest-ants.

Couple?

http://the40.org/world-religions-tree.html

Splittists.


Sent from my genius using brilliance

[BBD]

Is there a similar study that looks at the coverage of peace, good will, kindness, charitable acts etc? in the interest of completeness and balance

Just reverse the one mentioned in the Independent. As for the rest of it, I'm not sure. The most charitable people in the US, in terms of amounts of money given to charity in the name of religion, are the Mormons. I'm not sure, but I think their brand of Christianity adheres to the belief that the lost tribes of Israel sailed out of the Mediterranean and across the Athlantic to the Americas where they became Indians. A lot of Polynesians are also Mormons. 1980/1990s Samoan-New Zealand rugby star Michael Jones, for example, refused to play on Sundays leading to his omission from the 95 RWC squad.

It probably needs it to be considered of any value as a study, simply reversing it doesn't give us much

[Digby]

Is there a similar study that looks at the coverage of peace, good will, kindness, charitable acts etc? in the interest of completeness and balance

Just reverse the one mentioned in the Independent. As for the rest of it, I'm not sure. The most charitable people in the US, in terms of amounts of money given to charity in the name of religion, are the Mormons. I'm not sure, but I think their brand of Christianity adheres to the belief that the lost tribes of Israel sailed out of the Mediterranean and across the Athlantic to the Americas where they became Indians. A lot of Polynesians are also Mormons. 1980/1990s Samoan-New Zealand rugby star Michael Jones, for example, refused to play on Sundays leading to his omission from the 95 RWC squad.

It probably needs it to be considered of any value as a study, simply reversing it doesn't give us much

And you'd need context. The OP notes violence as being referenced but that could mean it's being cited within cautionary tale, no doubt the OT does go in for some fire and brimstone but there's nothing stated so far which would allow one to conclude it's actually a more violent collection of tales than any other religious tome

[BBD]

Is there a similar study that looks at the coverage of peace, good will, kindness, charitable acts etc? in the interest of completeness and balance

Just reverse the one mentioned in the Independent. As for the rest of it, I'm not sure. The most charitable people in the US, in terms of amounts of money given to charity in the name of religion, are the Mormons. I'm not sure, but I think their brand of Christianity adheres to the belief that the lost tribes of Israel sailed out of the Mediterranean and across the Athlantic to the Americas where they became Indians. A lot of Polynesians are also Mormons. 1980/1990s Samoan-New Zealand rugby star Michael Jones, for example, refused to play on Sundays leading to his omission from the 95 RWC squad.

It probably needs it to be considered of any value as a study, simply reversing it doesn't give us much

And you'd need context. The OP notes violence as being referenced but that could mean it's being cited within cautionary tale, no doubt the OT does go in for some fire and brimstone but there's nothing stated so far which would allow one to conclude it's actually a more violent collection of tales than any other religious tome

Agreed
So "no butting, gouging, rabbit punches or low blows and when I say "break", then break " references 4 different acts of violence, but all cautionary
taken from the OT (probably)

[Digby]

It probably needs it to be considered of any value as a study, simply reversing it doesn't give us much

And you'd need context. The OP notes violence as being referenced but that could mean it's being cited within cautionary tale, no doubt the OT does go in for some fire and brimstone but there's nothing stated so far which would allow one to conclude it's actually a more violent collection of tales than any other religious tome

Agreed
So "no butting, gouging, rabbit punches or low blows and when I say "break", then break " references 4 different acts of violence, but all cautionary
taken from the OT (probably)

I think that's the Sermon on the 22 from Deuteronomy

[Vengeful Glutton]

Bit in bold is the way I recall it, aside from attempting to defend their city, at least.

The OT is in fact little more than a collection of myths and legends from the ancient world, but which is which is another question. As stated, the Legend of Gilgamesh seems to have been the source for many.

The earliest gospel, Mark was probably written before the fall of Jerusalem (70AD),

But you're referencing religious sources here; not factual historical evidence as presented by the recognized historians of the time. There is not a single reference of any Jewish miracle-worker named Jesus prior to the Council of Nicea in 325AD. There are only religious references, likely slipped in at a later time. Btw, I think it was Queen Elizabeth the 1st who had a clause added to the Bible stating anti-monarchism equated to 'blasphemy.'

Strabo, Livy. Marcus Velleius Paterculus, Memnon of Heraclea, Quintus Curtius Rufus, Pamphile of Epidaurus, Thallus, Plutarch,
Gaius Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius, Appian, Arrian, Lucius Ampelius, Dio Cassius, Herodian, Sextus Julius Africanus & Diogenes Laërtiusree were the foremost Greek and Roman historians, politicians, philosophers and writers of the first few centuries AD, and none of them mention Jesus.

I think you need to re-read the books of Exodus and Joshua.

Yes there is:

Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger & Suetonius do mention Christ (and Christians).

I find it hard to believe that this is still being discussed. Jesus of Nazareth existed, and was crucified. Historical scholars accept that.

You are correct about Gilgamesh. It undoubtedly inspired the writers of Genesis.

Myths and legends do exist in the OT. However mythology describes the genealogy and lives of a God (or Gods). That does not exist in the OT.

Christine Hayes's scholarly introduction is excellent:

[rowan]

& then you've got Tom Cruise, John Travolta and others within the Church of Scientology believing we are all descended from aliens and a spaceship is out there somewhere just waiting to whisk its followers off to some heavenly galaxy as soon as the time is right. Those suckers tried to recruit me once after I did a free IQ test in their Auckland office (saw the ad on the door). Took me years to shake them off, even after I'd moved back to Wellington. Scary people, I can tell you

The one just below Albert Park?

Just off Queen Street, as I recall, but we're going back to the 1980s, here.

[rowan]

Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger & Suetonius do mention Christ (and Christians).

But the word Christ is just Greek for the anointed one. That's not a reference to Jesus. Tacitus, Pliny & Suetonius do not mention Jesus but only make a few references to Christ, while the testimony of Josephus has been proved to be a forgery, likely introduced to the New Testament by the Romans at the time it was actually written at the Council of Nicea in 325AD. Very few scholars of repute have continued to cite this passage since the turn of the 19th century.

"the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars." http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

In expanding their empire eastward the Romans required a new religion with which to control the masses. They achieved this simply by plagiarising the Torah then adding a solar deity whose life is a carbon copy of multitudes of solar deities which existed in pagan religions throughout antiquity. There is a 3500-year-old inscription on the walls of the Temple of Luxor in Egypt, for example, describing the immaculate conception and birth of Horus, born of ISIS, a virgin impregnated by the holy ghost.

In fact, you only need to read the Old & New Testaments themselves to see the amazing similarities between Joseph and Jesus. Born of a miracle birth, Joseph had 12 brothers, Jesus had 12 disciples, Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, Jesus for 30, Brother Judah betrayed Joseph, disciple Judas betrayed Jesus, both began work at age 30, and so on.

The Romans weren't even particularly imaginative on the issue! & why do you think the Pope lives smack in the middle of Rome? And, once again, the Jews themselves do not accept Jesus any more than the Christians accept Muhammad. Only Islam accepts them all, and that is because the Arabs did precisely what the Romans did and created their own religion merely by extension.

[Digby]

Jesus of Nazareth existed, and was crucified. Historical scholars accept that.

Do they en masse not publish any proof of this for similar reasons to no major outlets naming The Stig?

[rowan]

Jesus of Nazareth existed, and was crucified. Historical scholars accept that.

Do they en masse not publish any proof of this for similar reasons to no major outlets naming The Stig?

Not only no proof, but no actual mention. Quite amazing really. Read that list again:

Strabo, Livy. Marcus Velleius Paterculus, Memnon of Heraclea, Quintus Curtius Rufus, Pamphile of Epidaurus, Thallus, Plutarch,
Gaius Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius, Appian, Arrian, Lucius Ampelius, Dio Cassius, Herodian, Sextus Julius Africanus & Diogenes Laërtiusree were the foremost Greek and Roman historians, politicians, philosophers and writers of the first few centuries AD, and none of them mention Jesus.

& the Jews, who were actually on the scene at the time, reject him outright.

Now weigh that against Josephus, whose testimony has been regarded as a forgery for centuries and not even cited by the church any more, and Tacitus, Pliny the Younger & Suetonius who only make a few brief references to an 'anointed one.'

[zer0]

The Roman's were a pragmatic bunch and didn't give a sh*t about what religion you practiced, as long as you paid your taxes and included the Emperor in the prayers/sacrifices to your chosen deity or deities. If you caused trouble they sent the Legions to beat you back into line. Forging a pretend religion to control a bunch of people in a desert is about as un-Roman as you can get. They preferred to do their ruling with a spreadsheet in one hand and a gladius in the other.

But if they were going to create a pretend religion, why do it in the Levant of all places? The place is surrounded by wealthy provinces, including the Imperial province of Egypt (one ruled directly by the Emperor, and not the senate). In other words, the place would be crawling with Legionaries. Sure the Jews kicked up a fuss every once in a while, but the Britons and Germans were often far more troublesome. If they were going to create a pretend religion, then Britain would've been the place to do it, as they expended massively disproportionate resources to hold that damp patch of dirt for as long as they did. If they weren't prepared to make up a fake religion there, then I doubt they'd do it anywhere.

[rowan]

Probably because the indigenous tribes of northern Europe were not aware of the ancient Roman religion. The Greeks of pre-Roman Byzantium were, and it was they who the Romans first sought to bring under their control, before they even thought about imposing it on the peoples of the desert. So the new religion was undoubtedly created to transcend that barrier. Also, the ancient Roman religion, unlike its Greek counterpart, incorporated not only the ancient Greek deities but also Mythra of Persia and Isis of Egypt. So it is only natural that it would incorporate the religion of the Jews as it moved its empire eastward, with its second capital in Constantinople - named after the first Christian emperor, coincidentally. & it was Constantine himself who convened the Council of Nicea, where the Bible is widely believed to have been written. Amazing that this relic of the Roman empire continues to influence the lives of so many today in the 21st century.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Rowan you are eliding the collection of the NT with the writing of it. It's the equivalent of saying none of Shakespeare's plays existed before the first folio. Iirc a couple of the gospels were written within living memory of Jesus, another is more or less a copy of one of those and the last is written a fair bit later.

It is not an accident that the gospels mainly follow the structure of Greek myth. That's rather the point when you are writing to an audience who have that as their dominant frame of reference.

I'm not sure how many documentary sources you'd want of someone called Jesus preaching in Judea, but there are surely enough even if you discount the Bible.

None of which means that Jesus performed miracles, or was the son of God or any of the rest of that nonsense.

[Digby]

I'm not sure how many documentary sources you'd want of someone called Jesus preaching in Judea, but there are surely enough even if you discount the Bible.

More than there are, and more than those written at such a point in time later, and more than those who refer to someone who might have been Jesus but was called something else. Given what there is I'm not denying there was someone called Jesus preaching, indeed it'd seem probable there was, but I wouldn't take it as proof.

[rowan]

I'm not sure how many documentary sources you'd want of someone called Jesus preaching in Judea, but there are surely enough even if you discount the Bible.


From religiously inspired sources only. That's the point. Again, Strabo, Livy. Marcus Velleius Paterculus, Memnon of Heraclea, Quintus Curtius Rufus, Pamphile of Epidaurus, Thallus, Plutarch, Gaius Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius, Appian, Arrian, Lucius Ampelius, Dio Cassius, Herodian, Sextus Julius Africanus & Diogenes Laërtiusree were the foremost Greek and Roman historians, politicians, philosophers and writers of the first few centuries AD, and none of them mention Jesus. Tacitus, Pliny the Younger & Suetonius do not mention Jesus but only make a few references to Christ, which means the anointed one, while the testimony of Josephus has been proved to be a forgery, likely introduced to the New Testament by the Romans at the time it was actually written at the Council of Nicea in 325AD. Very few scholars of repute have continued to cite this passage since the turn of the 19th century, and the church itself has long since abandoned the practice. & the Jews who inhabited the region at the time neither mention Jesus nor accept the claim he existed. This was a Roman invention, and that's why the Pope sits in Rome to this very day.

As mentioned, the New Testament is as unoriginal as the Old Testament, which is a plagiary of the Torah. The solar deity is unbiquitous throughout antiquity. There is a 3500-year-old inscription on the walls of the Temple of Luxor in Egypt, for example, describing the immaculate conception and birth of Horus, born of ISIS, a virgin impregnated by the holy ghost. & you only need to read the Old & New Testaments themselves to see the amazing similarities between Joseph and Jesus. Born of a miracle birth, Joseph had 12 brothers, Jesus had 12 disciples, Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, Jesus for 30, Brother Judah betrayed Joseph, disciple Judas betrayed Jesus, both began work at age 30, and so on. The brothers/disciples are believed to represent the constellations, btw, as the whole story can be taken apart and be seen to be based on atrology, which is hardly surprising, since the ancients new the night sky as well as we know our way around the internet.

[rowan]

Interestingly like the ancient Egyptians the Maori worshipped a solar deity named 'Ra.' In Polynesian religion, which is now widely dismissed as mythology (Christianity was imposed in its place), the sky god Rangi impregnated the earth goddess Papa and created life. The most well-known demigod in their pantheon is Maui, a trickster in the mold of Loki from Norse mythology. The 2nd largest Islands of both New Zealand and Hawaii are named for Maui. The North Island is known in Maori as 'Te Ika a Maui' - the fish of Maui, while the South Island is known as his great canoe 'Te Wai Pounamu.'

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I'm not sure how many documentary sources you'd want of someone called Jesus preaching in Judea, but there are surely enough even if you discount the Bible.

More than there are, and more than those written at such a point in time later, and more than those who refer to someone who might have been Jesus but was called something else. Given what there is I'm not denying there was someone called Jesus preaching, indeed it'd seem probable there was, but I wouldn't take it as proof.

Given that him living or not isn't really the point I'll take balance of probabilities rather than search for beyond reasonable doubt.