EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Puja]

The way Ford has kicked so far this season I'm not sure Eng would lose any kicking points with Ford kicking v playing Farrell at IC.

It is a temperament thing though. I don't think anyone doubts Ford's talent as a goal-kicker, but that Wales game will take a time to live down.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

The way Ford has kicked so far this season I'm not sure Eng would lose any kicking points with Ford kicking v playing Farrell at IC.

It is a temperament thing though. I don't think anyone doubts Ford's talent as a goal-kicker, but that Wales game will take a time to live down.

Puja

I'd be more inclined to say it was a one off, at the end of a season when he was mentally shot, rather than evidence of a serious weakness. I'll admit that I'm desperate to keep him at 10 and get an attacking threat at 12, though.

[Digby]

The way Ford has kicked so far this season I'm not sure Eng would lose any kicking points with Ford kicking v playing Farrell at IC.

It is a temperament thing though. I don't think anyone doubts Ford's talent as a goal-kicker, but that Wales game will take a time to live down.

Puja

That's not unreasonable, equally Farrell needs to live down such as the Wales game in the WC, when the attack game even with plenty of ball was at best inept

[Mikey Brown]

The way Ford has kicked so far this season I'm not sure Eng would lose any kicking points with Ford kicking v playing Farrell at IC.

It is a temperament thing though. I don't think anyone doubts Ford's talent as a goal-kicker, but that Wales game will take a time to live down.

Puja

That's not unreasonable, equally Farrell needs to live down such as the Wales game in the WC, when the attack game even with plenty of ball was at best inept

That's the odd thing isn't it. It seems more common you hear "remember that time he forgot his kicking boots" as a criticism than "remember that time he completely forgot how to do anything except kick goals".

[Mellsblue]

It is a temperament thing though. I don't think anyone doubts Ford's talent as a goal-kicker, but that Wales game will take a time to live down.

Puja

That's not unreasonable, equally Farrell needs to live down such as the Wales game in the WC, when the attack game even with plenty of ball was at best inept

That's the odd thing isn't it. It seems more common you hear "remember that time he forgot his kicking boots" as a criticism than "remember that time he completely forgot how to do anything except kick goals".

Agreed. I thought the same about Hodgson. Would Beauden Barrett get in the England team under and English head coach?

[TheNomad]

It's all about areas of weakness though isn't it? Arguably Farrell's points from the boot (and he is a better kicker than Ford, both in accuracy and especially range) are more valuable as we don't have the backs (proven, anyway - to be fair we haven't really tried) to really rack up the points that could be better created by Ford.

I'm not a particular Farrell fan, but playing inside Burgess and Barritt (jeez, did that actually happen?) can't be good for any 10.

The hunch remains that a well selected unit of backs, complemented by Ford, has higher potential for point scoring vs. a more prosaic set with Farrell, which is sort of what you're arguing.

I would rule out Farrell's other aspects of his game though. His defensive (both tackling and organisation) is pretty bloody good and his distribution is OK (one side more than the other). His running's improving too. Can't help feeling Slade is a better option there though - he's just such a natural talent.

More generally, in terms of talent I see Ford (no one takes it to the line like he does), Slade (all round skill set) and Daly (incredible pace and balance) as arguably our three most gifted backs. I'd love to get them all in the side, But I think JJ's rightly got the 13 slot and alongside his good attacking game (arguably not as good as Daly's ) his defensive error count is impressively low. I suppose Daly could play 15 but it never really looked like he felt at home when he played there for Wasps, and our starting 15 needs to be starting there at club level.

[Mellsblue]

Is Farrell's % higher than Ford's? I'm fairly certain someone put some stats on here a while ago that proved it was very close. Can't remember who was slightly in front. You are probably correct on range. Is that another argument for getting Daly in the team?

We'll have to differ in his defensive capabilities. His propensity to rush out of the line and/or be bounced off when attempting a big hit is a huge liability.

We can certainly agree on the hope Slade puts in a run of good IC performances.

[Which Tyler]

Is Farrell's % higher than Ford's? I'm fairly certain someone put some stats on here a while ago that proved it was very close. Can't remember who was slightly in front. You are probably correct on range. Is that another argument for getting Daly in the team?

We'll have to differ in his defensive capabilities. His propensity to rush out of the line and/or be bounced off when attempting a big hit is a huge liability.

We can certainly agree on the hope Slade puts in a run of good IC performances.

That'd be yesterday, at 4.00. I was on a stat.s kick yeaterday - hopefully I'll put some results up today.

The way Ford has kicked so far this season I'm not sure Eng would lose any kicking points with Ford kicking v playing Farrell at IC.

18 from 22 = 81.81%
Plus 3 DGs

ETA: Since September 1st 2014:
Ford has hit 249 shots from the tee; from 324 efforts - Strike Rate = 76.85% + 10 DGs in 62 matches
Faz. has hit 231 shots from the tee; from 289 efforts - Strike Rate = 79.93% + 3 DGs in 52 matches

Between them, they've scored 1111 points from the tee in 114 matches; an average of 9.75 points per match.
That kicking percentage difference amounts to about 0.3 points per match.

[Mellsblue]

Is Farrell's % higher than Ford's? I'm fairly certain someone put some stats on here a while ago that proved it was very close. Can't remember who was slightly in front. You are probably correct on range. Is that another argument for getting Daly in the team?

We'll have to differ in his defensive capabilities. His propensity to rush out of the line and/or be bounced off when attempting a big hit is a huge liability.

We can certainly agree on the hope Slade puts in a run of good IC performances.

That'd be yesterday, at 4.00. I was on a stat.s kick yeaterday - hopefully I'll put some results up today.

The way Ford has kicked so far this season I'm not sure Eng would lose any kicking points with Ford kicking v playing Farrell at IC.

18 from 22 = 81.81%
Plus 3 DGs

ETA: Since September 1st 2014:
Ford has hit 249 shots from the tee; from 324 efforts - Strike Rate = 76.85% + 10 DGs in 62 matches
Faz. has hit 231 shots from the tee; from 289 efforts - Strike Rate = 79.93% + 3 DGs in 52 matches

Between them, they've scored 1111 points from the tee in 114 matches; an average of 9.75 points per match.
That kicking percentage difference amounts to about 0.3 points per match.

My apologies. I didn't read your edit, only the initial Ford only stats. Regardless, it proves my point. Which, as any married man will tell you, is all that matters.

[Digby]

Regardless, it proves my point. Which, as any married man will tell you, is all that matters.

One could claim it'd make your point irregardless, but then down the rabbit hole it is

[Stom]

Is Farrell's % higher than Ford's? I'm fairly certain someone put some stats on here a while ago that proved it was very close. Can't remember who was slightly in front. You are probably correct on range. Is that another argument for getting Daly in the team?

We'll have to differ in his defensive capabilities. His propensity to rush out of the line and/or be bounced off when attempting a big hit is a huge liability.

We can certainly agree on the hope Slade puts in a run of good IC performances.

That'd be yesterday, at 4.00. I was on a stat.s kick yeaterday - hopefully I'll put some results up today.

The way Ford has kicked so far this season I'm not sure Eng would lose any kicking points with Ford kicking v playing Farrell at IC.

18 from 22 = 81.81%
Plus 3 DGs

ETA: Since September 1st 2014:
Ford has hit 249 shots from the tee; from 324 efforts - Strike Rate = 76.85% + 10 DGs in 62 matches
Faz. has hit 231 shots from the tee; from 289 efforts - Strike Rate = 79.93% + 3 DGs in 52 matches

Between them, they've scored 1111 points from the tee in 114 matches; an average of 9.75 points per match.
That kicking percentage difference amounts to about 0.3 points per match.

I just looked at it myself, and is it actually 0.3 points a game? As how many of those shots at goal at penalties and how many conversions? It's .09 of a shot at goal difference, which could be as high as 0.3 or as low as 0.2.

Anyway, that's nitpicking

[Which Tyler]

My apologies. I didn't read your edit, only the initial Ford only stats. Regardless, it proves my point. Which, as any married man will tell you, is all that matters.

It's not just Puja - I hadn't realised mine was the last post on the page, so I'd edit, see that no new replies had come in, and felt free to keep on editing.

Anyway - I promised some stat.s; sources ar ESPN for most stats, statbunker for minutes played and shots at goal:

EPS Wk3.png

I have another page with figures averaged out per 80 minutes played; but after only 3 rounds it's a mess, with some players having stats divided by zero, others being multiplied to reach an 80 minute mark etc. Still undecided what to do when we reach LV and Euro cups with their wildly differing classes of opponent, and fielding of academy sides for some etc etc - probably just include them.

I just looked at it myself, and is it actually 0.3 points a game? As how many of those shots at goal at penalties and how many conversions? It's .09 of a shot at goal difference, which could be as high as 0.3 or as low as 0.2.

Anyway, that's nitpicking

I took the total points scored in that time as well (1111 IIRC) and used that to take my average points scored from. ETA: look, I even said as much.
IIRC it was 0.3 to 3 decimal places (0.3011... IIRC)

However, I did cock up my working for this season; he's 18 from 23, not 18 from 22 - obviously, I was still working in my head at that time, with just a calculator for the percentage.
I did find that something like 50.5% of Ford's kicks were conversions; whilst Faz was around 45% conversions.
Now that may mean that Faz goes for the posts from a higher percentage of penalties; or it may mean that Ford's teams scored more tries (I didn't look at that); quite honestly that bit was so close it wasn't worth bothering with.

BTW - my source was statbunker

[TheNomad]

BTW - my source was statbunker

Lovely stuff on the stats! The telegraph used to have a page that did this but they don't anymore. A lot fo the stats (as we'll see) just back up what you already know but it's nice to see it there

Some observations - forwards:

- The Vunipola brothers, blimey, they sure make some hefty yards and get through a lot of work
- for the amount of time he's been on the pitch, Hughes, given he's meant to be in dire form, is still an interesting prospect
- Clifford is getting through more defensive work than I gave him credit for, though Quins have needed to defend!
- some unflattering TC stats for two of our starting back row (BV, Robshaw) though!?
- top tackler Itoje, that's some going for a team that are top of the table. He remains a really viable option at 6, no doubt
- Lawes is carrying more than he used to
- LCD and George, as we knew, do noticeably more around the park than Hartley

Some observations - Backs:

- not really right to compare Slade with others 10s yet, as he's been playing further out, but he consistently racks up a few DBs. He's a cracking all rounder and feels like the right long term bet for 12
- Marchant, in a struggling side, appears to be doing fairly well all things considered
- a few too many missed tackles for Daly, but going forward I think he's arguably our most threatening all round attacker. He's a joy to watch (actual, rather than stats)
- Ford's tackle stats: it may be that he's being backed up by others, but 21 made, 0 missed. Have some of that
- Roko: what the actual f*ck is he on? As ever, topping the attacking stats in essentially all categories. Must get more of a chance

[Which Tyler]

- not really right to compare Slade with others 10s yet, as he's been playing further out, but he consistently racks up a few DBs. He's a cracking all rounder and feels like the right long term bet for 12

I didn't really know where to put Slade - I've always felt he'd be best suited to IC; but he's spent the vast majority of his career at OC; and 2/3 of this season at FH.
I went for FH, as, apart from anything else, he's probably England's 3rd choice there and has played there more this season. I put him 3rd of the 3 FHs, so that it's easier to compare his stats to the centres.

I should be able to simply chuck him in the centres if he ends up getting much more gametime there.

[TheNomad]

At test level, to be honest he's probably a 10, capable of playing 12. I don't think he's a 13. Will be interesting to see where he settles in a few years...maybe he won't...but I think the issue is that he's unlikely to be playing at 12 for Exeter with Hill and Devoto there.

[Stom]

At test level, to be honest he's probably a 10, capable of playing 12. I don't think he's a 13. Will be interesting to see where he settles in a few years...maybe he won't...but I think the issue is that he's unlikely to be playing at 12 for Exeter with Hill and Devoto there.

Again, I really don't see this as an issue. At the weekend, Slade was more often at 1st or 3rd receiver than 2nd when he played 12, and more often at 2nd when he had moved to 13. I just think it's Exeter's system, and I think the experience of moving across the backline will stand Slade in good stead when it comes to defending and attacking against top class opposition.

He definitely has ability, that's for sure, you can see it as soon as he gets the ball. Though I feel he's a midfielder, not a 10, tbh. He could also do a job as a 15, I feel, but there's no need for that, I'd rather see Nowell there.

[TheNomad]

Like Daly, if Nowell's being considered for 15 then he needs to be playing there. He in particular, while a lovely attacker, lacks a few key points at 15 for me. He lacks everything that Goode has, the irony being that Goode lacks what he has. Nowell would need to be:
- better under the high ball
- better positionally
- better kicking game

At test level I fear these would be exposed

[Which Tyler]

Still undecided what to do when we reach LV and Euro cups with their wildly differing classes of opponent, and fielding of academy sides for some etc etc - probably just include them.

I should say here - that I'm open to suggestions on improvements to the graphic; and whether people want me to include LV and Euro cup rugby - not to mention internationals where applicable.

[Mellsblue]

Beware the Harry Sloan rule.

[Stom]

Beware the Harry Sloan rule.

??

[Mellsblue]

Beware the Harry Sloan rule.

??

Someone put some stats up here last season that placed Harry Sloan as an above average premiership centre and above other centres that are of international quality. I used this as exhibit a in my case against stats.

[Digby]

Both George and LCD being touted heavily for England, but as Hartley is confirmed as captain one of them at least isn't making the squad. Not sure Hartley needed t be confirmed this early, I don't see the harm in him being under pressure for a place.

[Peat]

Still undecided what to do when we reach LV and Euro cups with their wildly differing classes of opponent, and fielding of academy sides for some etc etc - probably just include them.

I should say here - that I'm open to suggestions on improvements to the graphic; and whether people want me to include LV and Euro cup rugby - not to mention internationals where applicable.

Euro Cup maybe, LV cup no. Tbh, its Euro Cup no but I think someone might convince me otherwise; the standard of LV makes it simply irrelevant.

[Stom]

Both George and LCD being touted heavily for England, but as Hartley is confirmed as captain one of them at least isn't making the squad. Not sure Hartley needed t be confirmed this early, I don't see the harm in him being under pressure for a place.

To be honest, watching LCD I do see that he needs a lot of improvement. Makes a lot of mistakes that George just doesn't.

[Digby]

Both George and LCD being touted heavily for England, but as Hartley is confirmed as captain one of them at least isn't making the squad. Not sure Hartley needed t be confirmed this early, I don't see the harm in him being under pressure for a place.

To be honest, watching LCD I do see that he needs a lot of improvement. Makes a lot of mistakes that George just doesn't.

To be expected, still not sure they should be told they're out of contention to start no matter how they play