Justice - US style

[Coco]

Agree with that.

[WaspInWales]

Exactly. Of course it does, but it doesnt fit the narrative of recent times. Plenty of white nutjobs, crackheads, anti-govt, and innocents alike getting shot for failure to comply or whatever. Hispanics too. You just rarely see it being made a lesson or question of excessive force.

That said, I wonder if this would've ended differently if Black Lives Matter were armed and occupying a federal building for weeks?

[rowan]

Female officer charged in the Tulsa case:

Betty Shelby, the Tulsa police officer who fatally shot an unarmed black man, has been charged with manslaughter.

http://www.euronews.com/2016/09/23/tuls ... cher-death

[WaspInWales]

Female officer charged in the Tulsa case:

Betty Shelby, the Tulsa police officer who fatally shot an unarmed black man, has been charged with manslaughter.

http://www.euronews.com/2016/09/23/tuls ... cher-death

As I mentioned in a previous post, I expected the officer responsible to be charged.

Be interesting to see how things progress from this...also be interesting to see if she'll be treated any differently by the media due to her gender. Such as; I wonder if she's a caring/doting mother?

I fully expect the charges to be dropped or an acquittal within due course.

[rowan]

Female officer charged in the Tulsa case:

Betty Shelby, the Tulsa police officer who fatally shot an unarmed black man, has been charged with manslaughter.

http://www.euronews.com/2016/09/23/tuls ... cher-death

As I mentioned in a previous post, I expected the officer responsible to be charged.

Be interesting to see how things progress from this...also be interesting to see if she'll be treated any differently by the media due to her gender. Such as; I wonder if she's a caring/doting mother?

I fully expect the charges to be dropped or an acquittal within due course.

Absolutely. No way they'll charge her all the obvious question will be 'How come the men always get off?'

They'll probably say she was intimidated and felt threatened or something (he looked like a pretty big guy), but from the video it doesn't look as though he was intimidating or threatening anybody. She obviously just lost the plot and let fire. That's cold-blooded murder; not manslaughter.

[OptimisticJock]

They don't go that far, do they ?. I seem to remember reading that gravity operates on a bullet fired horizontally with the same force as one that's just dropped vertically. They both hit the deck at the same time.
Interestingly, the nutters firing off their AK's into the air....those bullets come back down and can cause serious head injuries. Yet another reason not to attend family weddings.

Depends on the round used. Most police forces tend to use rounds like 9mm which don't travel that far, or go through walls, for that reason. That said, to miss with 100 rounds is pathetic.

A bit off topic,....but over what sort of distance are modern handguns accurate ?.

Depends on the weapon but they're for close quarters. 50m is probably a good round about figure

[Stones of granite]

Depends on the round used. Most police forces tend to use rounds like 9mm which don't travel that far, or go through walls, for that reason. That said, to miss with 100 rounds is pathetic.

A bit off topic,....but over what sort of distance are modern handguns accurate ?.

Depends on the weapon but they're for close quarters. 50m is probably a good round about figure

I see what you did there....

[OptimisticJock]

Armed police and lax gun laws are increasingly beginning to look like an extention of white America's oppression of African Americans. Sure, the latter are able to obtain guns themselves, but if they use them against a white American or especially against an officer of the law there are serious consequences. The reverse does not appear to apply, however.

Of course it does.

One example of an armed white man surviving a confrontation with the police doesn't prove a rule. I'm pretty sure many white people who have taken up arms against other people of the same race and/or cops have found that it didn't end too well for themselves.

There is clearly some very serious issues with US policing of African-Americans though.

There are more whites killed by the police than blacks. Their cops are just shite.

[OptimisticJock]

A bit off topic,....but over what sort of distance are modern handguns accurate ?.

Depends on the weapon but they're for close quarters. 50m is probably a good round about figure

I see what you did there....

Haha. Completely unintentional.

[Stones of granite]

Depends on the round used. Most police forces tend to use rounds like 9mm which don't travel that far, or go through walls, for that reason. That said, to miss with 100 rounds is pathetic.

A bit off topic,....but over what sort of distance are modern handguns accurate ?.

Depends on the weapon but they're for close quarters. 50m is probably a good round about figure

I've no doubt that Glocks can be accurate to 50m, but I reckon most firearms training is done on 25yd indoor ranges (happy to be shown to be wrong), so I would be surprised if an agitated copper would be accurate shooting rapid fire, or even double-taps at more than half that distance.

[OptimisticJock]

A bit off topic,....but over what sort of distance are modern handguns accurate ?.

Depends on the weapon but they're for close quarters. 50m is probably a good round about figure

I've no doubt that Glocks can be accurate to 50m, but I reckon most firearms training is done on 25yd indoor ranges (happy to be shown to be wrong), so I would be surprised if an agitated copper would be accurate shooting rapid fire, or even double-taps at more than half that distance.

You're probably right. We ran our own ranges so could do what we wanted pretty much so we'd have longer ranges. The sig would score us hits at 75m.

[Stones of granite]

Depends on the weapon but they're for close quarters. 50m is probably a good round about figure

I've no doubt that Glocks can be accurate to 50m, but I reckon most firearms training is done on 25yd indoor ranges (happy to be shown to be wrong), so I would be surprised if an agitated copper would be accurate shooting rapid fire, or even double-taps at more than half that distance.

You're probably right. We ran our own ranges so could do what we wanted pretty much so we'd have longer ranges. The sig would score us hits at 75m.

In theatre?

[OptimisticJock]

I've no doubt that Glocks can be accurate to 50m, but I reckon most firearms training is done on 25yd indoor ranges (happy to be shown to be wrong), so I would be surprised if an agitated copper would be accurate shooting rapid fire, or even double-taps at more than half that distance.

You're probably right. We ran our own ranges so could do what we wanted pretty much so we'd have longer ranges. The sig would score us hits at 75m.

In theatre?

Just on the range.

[Stones of granite]

You're probably right. We ran our own ranges so could do what we wanted pretty much so we'd have longer ranges. The sig would score us hits at 75m.

In theatre?

Just on the range.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't mean in contact. This was on TELIC? Just say if I shouldn't be asking.

Edit: got the wrong op name, I think. Never mind. Forget I asked.

[OptimisticJock]

In theatre?

Just on the range.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't mean in contact. This was on TELIC? Just say if I shouldn't be asking.

Edit: got the wrong op name, I think. Never mind. Forget I asked.

Nah. Never did TELIC but ranges in theatre were gash.

[rowan]

There are more whites killed by the police than blacks. Their cops are just shite.

That's because white people are 62% of the population, blacks just 12%. A breakdown of the statistics shows blacks are three times more likely than whites to be shot and killed by police, while young black men are nine times as likely as the average American citizen to be shot and killed by police. Statistics show similar trends on everything from being stopped and questioned to being thrown in prison or put on death row. In every respect African Americans are treated very differently to their white counterparts. Native Americans and so-called "Hispanics" (ie mostly Native Americans from south of the border where they happen to speak Spanish) also fare badly, making it very apparent that racial profiling is prevalent among the US police forces.

[OptimisticJock]

There are more whites killed by the police than blacks. Their cops are just shite.

That's because white people are 62% of the population, blacks just 12%. A breakdown of the statistics shows blacks are three times more likely than whites to be shot and killed by police, while young black men are nine times as likely as the average American citizen to be shot and killed by police. Statistics show similar trends on everything from being stopped and questioned to being thrown in prison or put on death row. In every respect African Americans are treated very differently to their white counterparts. Native Americans and so-called "Hispanics" (ie mostly Native Americans from south of the border where they happen to speak Spanish) also fare badly, making it very apparent that racial profiling is prevalent among the US police forces.

Black's make up roughly the same percent of prison population as whites. So a black person is more likely to come in contact with the police, as you've said above, but a white person is more likely to be killed. Now it's completely possible that the judicial system convicts purely on the colour of their skin, it's also completely possible that they're convicted because of the fact that due to social circumstances they're more likely to commit crime.

[Stones of granite]

There are more whites killed by the police than blacks. Their cops are just shite.

That's because white people are 62% of the population, blacks just 12%. A breakdown of the statistics shows blacks are three times more likely than whites to be shot and killed by police, while young black men are nine times as likely as the average American citizen to be shot and killed by police. Statistics show similar trends on everything from being stopped and questioned to being thrown in prison or put on death row. In every respect African Americans are treated very differently to their white counterparts. Native Americans and so-called "Hispanics" (ie mostly Native Americans from south of the border where they happen to speak Spanish) also fare badly, making it very apparent that racial profiling is prevalent among the US police forces.

Are you sure about those statistics?

[Stones of granite]

There are more whites killed by the police than blacks. Their cops are just shite.

That's because white people are 62% of the population, blacks just 12%. A breakdown of the statistics shows blacks are three times more likely than whites to be shot and killed by police, while young black men are nine times as likely as the average American citizen to be shot and killed by police. Statistics show similar trends on everything from being stopped and questioned to being thrown in prison or put on death row. In every respect African Americans are treated very differently to their white counterparts. Native Americans and so-called "Hispanics" (ie mostly Native Americans from south of the border where they happen to speak Spanish) also fare badly, making it very apparent that racial profiling is prevalent among the US police forces.

Are you sure about those statistics?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-0 ... -cops-2016

According to the famous Tyler Durden (and I have no idea where "he" gets his stats from), 24% of fatal Police shooting victims this year have been Black, which is less than twice as many as expected as a proportion of the population.

The stats also show that men account for 95% of these victims, so I'm not sure that we can't conclude that there is a Police war against men.

[rowan]

There are more whites killed by the police than blacks. Their cops are just shite.

That's because white people are 62% of the population, blacks just 12%. A breakdown of the statistics shows blacks are three times more likely than whites to be shot and killed by police, while young black men are nine times as likely as the average American citizen to be shot and killed by police. Statistics show similar trends on everything from being stopped and questioned to being thrown in prison or put on death row. In every respect African Americans are treated very differently to their white counterparts. Native Americans and so-called "Hispanics" (ie mostly Native Americans from south of the border where they happen to speak Spanish) also fare badly, making it very apparent that racial profiling is prevalent among the US police forces.

Are you sure about those statistics?

I've read these kinds of stats many times over the years. Just a quick google search brought up these two stories, for example:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... 12e05bff9f

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -black-men

[Stones of granite]

There are more whites killed by the police than blacks. Their cops are just shite.

That's because white people are 62% of the population, blacks just 12%. A breakdown of the statistics shows blacks are three times more likely than whites to be shot and killed by police, while young black men are nine times as likely as the average American citizen to be shot and killed by police. Statistics show similar trends on everything from being stopped and questioned to being thrown in prison or put on death row. In every respect African Americans are treated very differently to their white counterparts. Native Americans and so-called "Hispanics" (ie mostly Native Americans from south of the border where they happen to speak Spanish) also fare badly, making it very apparent that racial profiling is prevalent among the US police forces.

Are you sure about those statistics?

I've read these kinds of stats many times over the years. Just a quick google search brought up these two stories, for example:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... 12e05bff9f

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -black-men

From your first link, Washington Post (which is where the TD stats come from too, I think)

According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

Can you spot the arithmetic error?

[kk67]

Worth noting that crime statistics are notoriously unreliable precisely because of variables in the way they are collated, and like unemployment statistics, they are always a prime target for government manipulation.

[Stones of granite]

Worth noting that crime statistics are notoriously unreliable precisely because of variables in the way they are collated, and like unemployment statistics, they are always a prime target for government manipulation.

Oh absolutely, but these particular statistics are in the,selves interesting because, or so I am given to understand, the US Government rather shamefully doesn't track these things, which is why the Washington Post maintains its own database.

Now, my big problem with this is that by somehow conspiring to screw up basic arithmetic, which is then rounded up and quoted by the hand-wringing tendency, we end up with numbers being banded about that bare no relation to reality, do not stand up to scrutiny and undermine the whole argument.

[Which Tyler]

As it's relevant here again - some stats I ran on the BLM thread:

We only tend to see videos of black males. How are white males killed by the polis? Is it the same as with black males? Are white males all posing genuine threats?

Sorry, back to my original links in page 1 (the next bit only shows up on the full site, not the mobile version)
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-i ... s-database
2015 saw the following numbers killed by police in the USA:
581 White
306 Black
195 Hispanic / Latino
24 Asian / PI
13 Native American
27 Unknown / Other

In terms of dead (at police hands) per million of that population, we get:
7.27 Black
3.51 Hispanic/Latino
3.40 Native American
2.93 White
1.34 Asian / PI

Out of interest, and looking in a little more detail.
Of the 1146 people killed by police in 2015; 1019 of them were shot.
Of that 1146; 229 of them were unarmed.
Of that 229: 111 of those died by gunshot; 46 by Taser, 42 died in custody, 29 struck by vehicle, 1 unarmed combat.
Of that 229, the racial breakdown is: 103 = White, 70 = black, 36 = Hispanic, 5 PI; 4 NA.

In 2015, 56 cops died as a result of violent assault (deliberate gunfire[39], vehicular assault[8], bomb[6], unarmed[3]). https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2015

[rowan]

Well, how often do we witness scenes like that in Tulsa with white victims? If it were happening to white people too, we'd be seeing it on our TV screens and social media feeds, that's for sure. But we're not. We are only seeing black male victims at last 90% of the time.