5 Most Influential Players

[rowan]

Lochore names McCaw, Lomu, Wilko, Eales and Iceman as his most influential 5 players ever.

http://www.worldrugby.org/video/187443

Who would yours be?

From the players that I've seen with my own personal eyes (as opposed to those I've only read about but either never seen or just watch a few old highlights reels) I'd go with the following:

1 Jonah Lomu
2 David Campese
3 Hugo Porta
4 Danie Gerber
5 Martin Johnson

[Lizard]

Depends what you mean by "influential". Influence to what end - dominating the game in your era, or altering the game permanently? Often, a player who changes the game is not the one who perfects that change.

Without the influence of Inga Tuigamala for example, it's pretty unlikely that Counties would have put a giant schoolboy No. 8 on the wing.

If Grant Fox hadn't brought ridiculously overlong pre-kick routines into test rugby, whither Wilko?

Johnson and Eales were no doubt hugely influential in their day but did either have any lasting effect on how we play or watch the game (other than giving Pommy and Aussie fans respectively entirely unrealistic expectations)?

[Which Tyler]

I'd say
1: Lomu - basically the threat of him leaving for League was the final nail in rugby's amateur era.
>>>>>>>>>
2: Pienaar - with a little help from Nelson, helped unite a divided country... temporarily
>>>>>>
Anyone else after those 2 has had basically no real bearing on the game since Mr Webb-Ellis's story which is almost certainly untrue

[onlynameleft]

Baron Wakefield of Kendal?

[Stom]

Adrian Stoop

[Lizard]

Zinzan Brooke. I would say he began the trend of forwards who not only have the ball-handling skills of backs, but can think like a back when required and make the most of those skills in the loose.

[Digby]

Only really considering players I've seen, so no Gareth Edwards or Frik du Preez or...

Os du Randt. One of the first truly massive players who also had mobility and a high work rate, and was not only not a liability as a tall prop but an asset.

Tim Horan. Not only brilliant but played across the midfield, and too showed what was possibly with the aid of modern medicine and battling back to the very highest levels.

Joanh Lomu. Very big, very fast, changed the game. Might have gone for a Campo or Jason Robinson and the notion you needn't have an attack game but just the ball to one freak talent, or perhaps Cullen and what he could do is the one who influenced more coaches into looking at what was possible on kick returns, not English coaches, but elsewhere at least. But Lomu is the standout influence.

Jonny Wilkinson. Changed the game with the mentality being sought at 10, the physicality being sought at 10, and too raised the bar on what it took to prepare oneself physically and technically in training.

Tricky last spot, I'm tempted in part to go for Johnson, Eales, Thorn, POC for differing reasons of aggression, leadership, intensity, lineout technicians, crossing codes successfully, but in the end the last spot when really thinking about influence goes to;

Michael Jones. There will be those who'll maintain Kronfeld perhaps and McCaw certainly have raised the bar, but it was Jones who did the most to highlight the road that others have traveled.

[rowan]

I take it from your guys' comments on Zinny and the Iceman that you never saw Rob Louw play for South Africa. When it comes to backrowers with the speed and skills of backs he was perhaps the prototype; at least as far as I recall. Waka Nathan was of a similar mould apparently, but that was before my time - and before rugby games were shown on TV, as well!!

[Buggaluggs]

Barry John Big influence all the ABs
Michael Jones or half the 1987 ABs RWC team. Taught the rest of the world we were playing pretend rugby
Jonah Lomu You can't beat a big fast skillful player
David Campese Yes you can
Martin Johnson A great leader can lead an average team to great things

[rowan]

"Without the influence of Inga Tuigamala for example, it's pretty unlikely that Counties would have put a giant schoolboy No. 8 on the wing. "

Good point. He was the first of the really "big" wingers who relied on power more than pace. JK was a big guy too, but he was very much in the traditional mould - just a lot bigger than all the others.

Meanwhile, John Gallagher might have been the first of the 'attacking fullbacks' - though Campo sometimes performed that role for the Wallabies as well. Cullen took it to new heights. Playing him at center in the 1999 semis was one of John Hart's biggest blunders.

[Lizard]

"Without the influence of Inga Tuigamala for example, it's pretty unlikely that Counties would have put a giant schoolboy No. 8 on the wing. "

Good point. He was the first of the really "big" wingers who relied on power more than pace. JK was a big guy too, but he was very much in the traditional mould - just a lot bigger than all the others.

Yes, I did think about JK. However although he was big, he still played traditionally, using speed and agility as his primary weapons. Inga was the first to really use size and power as a first resort, rather than as a back up to other skills.

Meanwhile, John Gallagher might have been the first of the 'attacking fullbacks' - though Campo sometimes performed that role for the Wallabies as well. Cullen took it to new heights. Playing him at center in the 1999 semis was one of John Hart's biggest blunders.

The revolution in fullback play from a purely defensive role to an attacking one is an excellent point. But I reckon it wasn't Gallagher but Serge Blanco who really forged that path.

Before WWII, only 7 test fullbacks scored tries at all and none of them did it more than once. Taniela Ranavue scored 2 for Fiji in 1947 and 1952. The first All Black fullback ever to score a try was the great Don Clarke, in 1959. In his 31 tests, Don went on to amass a total of 2 tries. The record was moved to 3 in 1966 by Aussie Jim Lenehan, who played 24 tests. In the 70's things began to change with two famous names - JPR Williams scored his first test try in 1970 and got to his 6th in 1977 (62 caps at FB). Andy Irvine meanwhile opened his ledger in 1974 and racked up 11 tries by 1981 (54 caps at FB). With JPR and Irvine opening the door, Blanco smashed it down scoring 34 tries in 81 tests as a fullback (4 more tries as a winger) from 1981-1991. Campese became perhaps the first true wing/fullback with his rate of scoring, dotting down 12 times in 16 tests wearing the 15 jersey (1983-1990). John Gallagher had a similar strike rate of 13 in his mere 18 tests. Burke and Jeff Wilson were also high scorers from the back, but it was Cullen who took things to the next level, knocking off Blancos record with 41 tries in 47 tests (1996-2002).

[rowan]

Inga was 10 cm shorter than JK but 10kg heavier!

Yes, I didn't think about the Europeans when it came to fullback play. JPR was before my time but I saw Blanco at the stadium on a few occasions, including when he scored the match-winning try against Australia at Concorde Oval in the inaugural World Cup.

Vague memories of Irving on TV and remember thinking he would leave a huge void in the Scottish team when he retired - only for Gavin Hastings to show up! Eales following Cutler in the Aussie 2nd row was another example of back-to-back legends with similar styles in the same position. Obviously there are many more, but those stand out in my memory.

Gallagher was English-born of course and played a major role in Wellington's 1986 NPC slam, bursting into the backline from fullback and scything through opposing teams with that sizzling pace of his. It was charismatic coach Earle Kirton who converted him from center, and what a stroke of genius that turned out to be!

Nepia openly lamented his lack of attacking opportunities with the All Blacks, particularly on that "Invincibles" tour where he played all 32 games as a teenager but was confined to tackling and clearing. He is credited with "inventing" the spiral punt after observing the way an American friend tossed the gridiron ball, and had a range of up to 70 yards. He didn't even do the goal-kicking. That was left to 1st-5 Mark Nicholls.

Incidentally, Danie Craven has been credited with introducing the dive-pass to international rugby; a tactic which caught the All Blacks by surprise when the touring Springboks won a series there (decisively) in 1937.

Don Clarke, apparently the heaviest man in the All Blacks team at times, liked to get involved in attacking play, but not quite the way 'Kipper' & Cullen did! He moved to South Africa but returned to New Zealand to participate in the 'This is your Life' tribute to Nepia in 1985, and actually got down on one knee and proclaimed that he, Nepia, had been the "best ever." A year later Nepia died at the age of 82.

[Matt Ha]

"Without the influence of Inga Tuigamala for example, it's pretty unlikely that Counties would have put a giant schoolboy No. 8 on the wing. "

Good point. He was the first of the really "big" wingers who relied on power more than pace. JK was a big guy too, but he was very much in the traditional mould - just a lot bigger than all the others.

Meanwhile, John Gallagher might have been the first of the 'attacking fullbacks' - though Campo sometimes performed that role for the Wallabies as well. Cullen took it to new heights. Playing him at center in the 1999 semis was one of John Hart's biggest blunders.

I would say Andy Irvine was the first out-and-out "attacking full back". He could have the odd 'mare in defence but was in a class of his own when attacking.

[rowan]

In fact, big Gav didn't actually debut until 3 years after Irvine had retired. Seems I had a memory lapse on that one. Eales did indeed follow directly on from Cutler, as I recalled it.

Meanwhile, if we're going to talk about Nepia, we could delve back into the archives a little further & pull out Otago-born Thomas Rangiwahia Ellison, among the stars of the 1888 Natives' year-long, 107-match tour of Australia & Britain, New Zealand's first ever national captain (to Australia in 1893), and author of one of the game's first coaching manuals. He was also credited with inventing the wing-forward position (abandoned in the 1930s) while at the Poneke club in Wellington, and designing the now famous All Blacks uniform (while serving on the inaugural NZRFU committee). An interpreter, lawyer and politician (as well as author), Ellison was an advocate of professional rugby as well. All this from a man who only reached 37 years of age...

NB: His family progeny have included countless sports stars, including 3-time Super Bowl winner Riki Ellison.

[rowan]

Following on from the earlier theme of back-to-back legends in the same position for the same national team, I guess Gregan and Genia would be another example, although there was a year or two between, I believe. Of course, the Gov himself was preceded by farr-Jones, so it seems the Wallabies have been well-served behind the scrum going back a long, long time.

[onlynameleft]

Zinzan Brooke. I would say he began the trend of forwards who not only have the ball-handling skills of backs, but can think like a back when required and make the most of those skills in the loose.

Hmm, I still say he (and Jones, Kronfeld, whoever) was standing on Wavell Wakefield's shoulders. Wakefield was the man who really invented back row play in the mould we know it today. Brooke was a great exponent of it to be fair.

[Len]

Hard not to be biased. But fuck it. I'll go for pro era only though.

Dan Carter. We thought we'd seen the benchmark all flyhalfs had to aspire to in 2003, 2 years later Carter destroyed the Lions and made us think again. Complete all round player.

Richie McCaw. Look at the numbers, percentages and achievements. Won't be beaten in our lifetime I don't think.

John Eales. Bledisloe kick broke my heart as a child. I scoffed when I saw a lock lining up that kick. He only went and made it.

And um. Get back to me.

[Donny osmond]

I started watching intl rugby in 1990 so only listing players from around that time onwards. Also I would draw a huge distinction between the most influential players and the best players. Richie McCaw is prob the starkest example of this. (Probably) Untouchable as the greatest exponent of open side rugby, and of intl captaincy, but I wouldn't class him as the most influential in either role.

1. Lomu. Changed the game in a way no-one else has. In some ways that's an accident of timing, with him making his mark just as professionalism was becoming real. He certainly wasn't the best winger of modern times, but easily the most influential.

2. Serge Blanco. Re-wrote attacking the script on attacking full backs. Others have done it better, notably Cullen, but Blanco opened my eyes to what a full back could/should do.

3. Richard Hill. Again, others have arguably been better blind sides, but for me Hill showed everyone what 6s could and should be doing in an era when professionalism was developing and his contributions formed the direction of that development.

4. Eales. A rare instance of the best also being the most influential, and I'm thinking more of his captaincy than his rugby, as good a player as he was. Again, came thru as a captain in the years when pro rugby was crying out for someone to take it by the scruff and mould it, which as a captain is exactly what he did. Other captains, Pieenar, Johnstone, McCaw have touched dizzying heights, but I dont feel like any of them have changed the way people view captaincy the way Eales did.

5. Inga? Campese? Horan? Sella? Joost vdW? Feck knows. If Jonathan Davies hadn't gone to league I suspect he would prob be here. On balance I think prob Joost van der Westhuizen. I cant remember too many players before him who combined skills, physicality and warrior spirit the way he did. Imposed himself on every game I saw him play, showed the world how to dictate a game of professional rugby.

Honourable mention to Dan Carter. Maybe he'll be on the list in a few years. To me he's clearly the all time best player, yes he's set standards for others to dream of following... but has he changed the way the game is played? Maybe but its not yet clear. Raising the bar for skills and nous is one thing, moulding the direction that rugby takes is another.

[Len]

Sort of depends on what influence we are talking about. For their team or the game itself?

[Donny osmond]

Was taking it as for the game itself. Surely it would be nigh on impossible to compare players' local influence on a global comparison? How would you compare Keith Wood's influence on Irish rugby against David Sole's influence on Scottish rugby against Pienaar's influence on SA rugby in any objective sense?

In fairness, trying to compare influence on the game as a whole is about as subjective as it gets.

Dunno mate.