Corbyn Wins

[Stom]

So only Labour supporters can comment on a discussion on the Labour party? The is surely a debate across opposing views which is the point of this forum.

15000 new supporters. brilliant. Well done. Now, lets see how he polls across the country come the big electoral tests shall we? Because at the moment he is seen as a joke, and a dangerous joke. Convincing like minded lefties that he is the second coming is one thing, convincing the wider electorate is another all together. Lots of noise on twitter and Facebook don't translate into votes at the ballot box.

Seems all the Corbyn haters want labour to move closer in policy to the Conservatives. If they do that is there really any point in them existing? If there is cock all difference we might as well just leave the country to the tories

Nope. A lot of us simply think that Corbyn is completely ill equipped to lead the party. He's a lightweight, temperamentally unsuited to the leadership role. His failings should be obvious by now. He's simply not up to it.

Do we want a more radical, progressive Labour party? You bet we do. But it has to be competently lead by someone able to articulate its message and be able to draw support from a wide base.

Ah, but you see, that's a debate to be had. And one I would happily get involved in.

I think that many people - myself included - would rather see someone like Corbyn in there drawing the party closer to its roots than someone else whose only aim is election. Even if he fails to become PM, he will have shifted the discussion, which is only a good thing.

If a true change candidate who had leadership qualities presented themselves, I'm sure people would be ecstatic. As it is, there's Corbyn. So until that person arrives, they'll stick with Corbyn, he's the lesser of two evils, so to speak.

I also don't think many are attached to Corbyn himself, more to what he stands for. He's an old fashioned belief politician. There aren't many of them left. If others see him and believe they can achieve what he has, that's also positive.

[Digby]

I think that many people - myself included - would rather see someone like Corbyn in there drawing the party closer to its roots than someone else whose only aim is election. Even if he fails to become PM, he will have shifted the discussion, which is only a good thing.

Drawing the party closer to it's base and remaining relevant to the electorate is I think something which isn't impossible, but I don't think lurching there suddenly and gaining momentum through Momentum is even close to a good idea. I'm also not sure if the Tories get back in with a bigger majority he'll be having much impact on the discussion, other than perhaps creating a group who want to argue for the purity of their beliefs and rage against compromise. And I've a problem with the idea that politics should be other than a compromise, the government being to me about governing for everyone including those who don't agree with you and thus largely plotting some path through the centre ground. Holding out for being able to do things as you want as per a set of 'pure' values and otherwise shouting at one's opponents seems a childish way to behave.

[kk67]

But the centre ground in British politics is now a very difficult line to draw. In the last 20/30 years Parliamentary parties have become almost indistinguishable from each other. Parliament now primarily seems to be representing business interests and little else. That's not compromise and it certainly ain't governance.

[Digby]

But the centre ground in British politics is now a very difficult line to draw. In the last 20/30 years Parliamentary parties have become almost indistinguishable from each other. Parliament now primarily seems to be representing business interests and little else. That's not compromise and it certainly ain't governance.

Maybe it's just me, but the political parties of the last 20-30 years seem remarkably easy to distinguish between. Okay it wasn't perhaps as easy as Foot Vs Thatcher, but even with two brain cells there's no way Blair for instance was the same as Major, or Brown the same as Cameron.

[kk67]

But the centre ground in British politics is now a very difficult line to draw. In the last 20/30 years Parliamentary parties have become almost indistinguishable from each other. Parliament now primarily seems to be representing business interests and little else. That's not compromise and it certainly ain't governance.

Maybe it's just me, but the political parties of the last 20-30 years seem remarkably easy to distinguish between. Okay it wasn't perhaps as easy as Foot Vs Thatcher, but even with two brain cells there's no way Blair for instance was the same as Major, or Brown the same as Cameron.

The Parliamentary parties......not the national parties.

[Digby]

But the centre ground in British politics is now a very difficult line to draw. In the last 20/30 years Parliamentary parties have become almost indistinguishable from each other. Parliament now primarily seems to be representing business interests and little else. That's not compromise and it certainly ain't governance.

Maybe it's just me, but the political parties of the last 20-30 years seem remarkably easy to distinguish between. Okay it wasn't perhaps as easy as Foot Vs Thatcher, but even with two brain cells there's no way Blair for instance was the same as Major, or Brown the same as Cameron.

The Parliamentary parties......not the national parties.

I'm not buying it. Maybe if people are pig ignorant, astonishingly lazy and/or just flat out thick it's difficult to tell them apart, maybe.

[Mellsblue]

For those who don't see why some think Corbyn dangerous. Imagine Fox, Cash or Bone (great name for a country band or 80's prog rock group) suddenly becoming leader of the Conservatives, and in so doing dragging the Conservatives to the right and becoming UKIP in all but name. Does that scare you? If so, then that is how a lot of people, even those on the centre left, feel. If not then wow. I'm centre right and the thought scares me.

Also, I loved the story about Milne changing an MP's speech about Trident whilst said MP was sat on stage waiting to give 'his' doctored speech. Truly unbelievable.

[morepork]

For those who don't see why some think Corbyn dangerous. Imagine Fox, Cash or Bone (great name for a country band or 80's prog rock group) suddenly becoming leader of the Conservatives, and in so doing dragging the Conservatives to the right and becoming UKIP in all but name. Does that scare you? If so, then that is how a lot of people, even those on the centre left, feel. If not then wow. I'm centre right and the thought scares me.

Also, I loved the story about Milne changing an MP's speech about Trident whilst said MP was sat on stage waiting to give 'his' doctored speech. Truly unbelievable.

So just add water and instant Venezuela or North Korea then? Come on....

[Mellsblue]

For those who don't see why some think Corbyn dangerous. Imagine Fox, Cash or Bone (great name for a country band or 80's prog rock group) suddenly becoming leader of the Conservatives, and in so doing dragging the Conservatives to the right and becoming UKIP in all but name. Does that scare you? If so, then that is how a lot of people, even those on the centre left, feel. If not then wow. I'm centre right and the thought scares me.

Also, I loved the story about Milne changing an MP's speech about Trident whilst said MP was sat on stage waiting to give 'his' doctored speech. Truly unbelievable.

So just add water and instant Venezuela or North Korea then? Come on....

You seem to have missed the point and just decided to become all hyperbolic in its place.

But no, I don't think that will happen. Just as I don't believe we'd have a Nazi Germany if Cash became PM. Doesn't mean that I'm not worried about the prospect of a lurch to the left Just as many socialists went in to hyperbole overload after the last election.

[morepork]

For those who don't see why some think Corbyn dangerous. Imagine Fox, Cash or Bone (great name for a country band or 80's prog rock group) suddenly becoming leader of the Conservatives, and in so doing dragging the Conservatives to the right and becoming UKIP in all but name. Does that scare you? If so, then that is how a lot of people, even those on the centre left, feel. If not then wow. I'm centre right and the thought scares me.

Also, I loved the story about Milne changing an MP's speech about Trident whilst said MP was sat on stage waiting to give 'his' doctored speech. Truly unbelievable.

So just add water and instant Venezuela or North Korea then? Come on....

You seem to have missed the point and just decided to become all hyperbolic in its place.

But no, I don't think that will happen. Just as I don't believe we'd have a Nazi Germany if Cash became PM. Doesn't mean that I'm not worried about the prospect of a lurch to the left Just as many socialists went in to hyperbole overload after the last election.

Countering perceived hyperbole with anecdotal hyperbole. Nice. Best we just leave things as they are then.

[kk67]

Fox, Cash or Bone (great name for a country band or 80's prog rock group)

Sounds like a legal firm to me.

I don't think that's a reasonable analogue. You're comparing 2 very dodgy suits (let's leave Bill out of this) to a guy that has devoted his life to public service.

[Mellsblue]

Fox, Cash or Bone (great name for a country band or 80's prog rock group)

Sounds like a legal firm to me.

I don't think that's a reasonable analogue. You're comparing 2 very dodgy suits (let's leave Bill out of this) to a guy that has devoted his life to public service.

It's their position on the political spectrum that is the comparison, not their CV. If you do want to discuss their CV's, then just as many people are as sceptical about life long politicians and public servants as there are people sceptical about suits.

[Mellsblue]

So just add water and instant Venezuela or North Korea then? Come on....

You seem to have missed the point and just decided to become all hyperbolic in its place.

But no, I don't think that will happen. Just as I don't believe we'd have a Nazi Germany if Cash became PM. Doesn't mean that I'm not worried about the prospect of a lurch to the left Just as many socialists went in to hyperbole overload after the last election.

Countering perceived hyperbole with anecdotal hyperbole. Nice. Best we just leave things as they are then.

I witnessed first hand such hyperbole on wide and varied media. To me it's not anecdotal.

My point is that, just as many would see Fox as PM as dangerous so people see Corbyn as PM as dangerous. Myself, who is quite happy to see power float around the middle whilst preferably just to the right, I see both scenarios as dangerous. Though, for some reason you took that to mean that I thought Corbyn would turn the UK into some international outcast. Perhaps we have different ideas of what dangerous is. To me it's a lurch away from what has been the centre ground since I was born, whether that be left or right. For someone who waxes lyrical about the dangerous free marketeers in the NZ political system I thought you'd understand.

[kk67]

If you do want to discuss their CV's, then just as many people are as sceptical about life long politicians and public servants as there are people sceptical about suits.

That's because our predominantly right wing media portray conviction politicians as being loonies and many of your centrist Parliamentarians now do likewise. We're constantly being told we need more business leaders in Parliament but in my humble opinion that's exactly what has got us in such a mess in the first place. Even Michael Portillo now accepts that an unregulated free market is going to eat itself and us.

But I guess if big business is paying you 10k for 3 hours consultancy work you pretty much do as you're told.

[Digby]

If you do want to discuss their CV's, then just as many people are as sceptical about life long politicians and public servants as there are people sceptical about suits.

That's because our predominantly right wing media portray conviction politicians as being loonies and many of your centrist Parliamentarians now do likewise. We're constantly being told we need more business leaders in Parliament but in my humble opinion that's exactly what has got us in such a mess in the first place. Even Michael Portillo now accepts that an unregulated free market is going to eat itself and us.

But I guess if big business is paying you 10k for 3 hours consultancy work you pretty much do as you're told.

You say we're in a mess, which is sort of true but also when isn't that true. But we also have many of the best opportunities we've ever known (asides from nauseating Lloyds Bank adverts)

And who are you hearing from in favour of an unregulated free market? That'd be an extreme position even for those on the extreme of politics, certainly there's no such view among any credible politician in the Conservative party.

[Mellsblue]

If you do want to discuss their CV's, then just as many people are as sceptical about life long politicians and public servants as there are people sceptical about suits.

That's because our predominantly right wing media portray conviction politicians as being loonies and many of your centrist Parliamentarians now do likewise. We're constantly being told we need more business leaders in Parliament but in my humble opinion that's exactly what has got us in such a mess in the first place. Even Michael Portillo now accepts that an unregulated free market is going to eat itself and us.

But I guess if big business is paying you 10k for 3 hours consultancy work you pretty much do as you're told.

Yes, yes. We can't think for ourselves. We're all puppets of the main stream media etc etc

I always love how people suddenly think that people who they've always disagreed with are suddenly correct when they hold a similar opinion. Me, if someone I've always thought was wrong suddenly agrees with me then I question my own position.

I always remember suddenly realising that I agreed with quite a few of David Aaronovitch's (sp?) opinion pieces and immediately felt he'd moved towards my way of thinking. I dug through a few of his old pieces and realised that we'd both moved towards each other.

I guess if Iranian and Russian state media are paying Corbyn then he'll do as they tell him.

[kk67]

If you do want to discuss their CV's, then just as many people are as sceptical about life long politicians and public servants as there are people sceptical about suits.

That's because our predominantly right wing media portray conviction politicians as being loonies and many of your centrist Parliamentarians now do likewise. We're constantly being told we need more business leaders in Parliament but in my humble opinion that's exactly what has got us in such a mess in the first place. Even Michael Portillo now accepts that an unregulated free market is going to eat itself and us.

But I guess if big business is paying you 10k for 3 hours consultancy work you pretty much do as you're told.

Yes, yes. We can't think for ourselves. We're all puppets of the main stream media etc etc

I always love how people suddenly think that people who they've always disagreed with are suddenly correct when they hold a similar opinion. Me, if someone I've always thought was wrong suddenly agrees with me then I question my own position.

I always remember suddenly realising that I agreed with quite a few of David Aaronovitch's (sp?) opinion pieces and immediately felt he'd moved towards my way of thinking. I dug through a few of his old pieces and realised that we'd both moved towards each other.

I guess if Iranian and Russian state media are paying Corbyn then he'll do as they tell him.

Well,....not everyone in this country takes part in political debate aside from reading the tabloids so the control of the media is critical. Murdoch, Desmond, the Rothermere's and the Lebedev bros...hardly representative is it..?.

I was told that people become more conservative with age but the gross corruption that is at epidemic levels in public life makes me feel that only a more radical approach is going to achieve anything.

[Mellsblue]

That's because our predominantly right wing media portray conviction politicians as being loonies and many of your centrist Parliamentarians now do likewise. We're constantly being told we need more business leaders in Parliament but in my humble opinion that's exactly what has got us in such a mess in the first place. Even Michael Portillo now accepts that an unregulated free market is going to eat itself and us.

But I guess if big business is paying you 10k for 3 hours consultancy work you pretty much do as you're told.

Yes, yes. We can't think for ourselves. We're all puppets of the main stream media etc etc

I always love how people suddenly think that people who they've always disagreed with are suddenly correct when they hold a similar opinion. Me, if someone I've always thought was wrong suddenly agrees with me then I question my own position.

I always remember suddenly realising that I agreed with quite a few of David Aaronovitch's (sp?) opinion pieces and immediately felt he'd moved towards my way of thinking. I dug through a few of his old pieces and realised that we'd both moved towards each other.

I guess if Iranian and Russian state media are paying Corbyn then he'll do as they tell him.

Well,....not everyone in this country takes part in political debate aside from reading the tabloids so the control of the media is critical. Murdoch, Desmond, the Rothermere's and the Lebedev bros...hardly representative is it..?.

I was told that people become more conservative with age but the gross corruption that is at epidemic levels in public life makes me feel that only a more radical approach is going to achieve anything.

I agree that plenty of people will take their political views solely from what their newspaper tells them. The ownership isn't representative but then there aren't many who are willing to lose money just for the privilege of owning a newspaper. Not really sure what you can do about it. State owned perhaps but even the BBC gets called out by both sides for being bias - I see that as sure fire proof that they are probably doing it correctly for the most part.

There are also plenty who do not even read a newspaper and who take their political leanings from, say, 10 minutes worth of sound bites over a course of a political campaign. Then there are people who take a great interest in politics. For example, my household contains a Politics degree for one, a politics A-level for the other, both of whom have worked in both the public and private sector, a liberal democrat, a Conservative, an active local politician and can count the local MP as a friend.
The point being you can't just whitewash everyone as being puppets of the msm just because they don't agree with you.

The lack of political interest from the general public is a problem. Most are uninformed and rely on the 10 mins of soundbites I mentioned above and that is a huge problem and always will be. Those people will always only hear what they want to hear and that is true across the political spectrum.

[Digby]

That's because our predominantly right wing media portray conviction politicians as being loonies and many of your centrist Parliamentarians now do likewise. We're constantly being told we need more business leaders in Parliament but in my humble opinion that's exactly what has got us in such a mess in the first place. Even Michael Portillo now accepts that an unregulated free market is going to eat itself and us.

But I guess if big business is paying you 10k for 3 hours consultancy work you pretty much do as you're told.

Yes, yes. We can't think for ourselves. We're all puppets of the main stream media etc etc

I always love how people suddenly think that people who they've always disagreed with are suddenly correct when they hold a similar opinion. Me, if someone I've always thought was wrong suddenly agrees with me then I question my own position.

I always remember suddenly realising that I agreed with quite a few of David Aaronovitch's (sp?) opinion pieces and immediately felt he'd moved towards my way of thinking. I dug through a few of his old pieces and realised that we'd both moved towards each other.

I guess if Iranian and Russian state media are paying Corbyn then he'll do as they tell him.

Well,....not everyone in this country takes part in political debate aside from reading the tabloids so the control of the media is critical. Murdoch, Desmond, the Rothermere's and the Lebedev bros...hardly representative is it..?.

I was told that people become more conservative with age but the gross corruption that is at epidemic levels in public life makes me feel that only a more radical approach is going to achieve anything.

Tabloid sales really aren't that high, most people in the country don't read a paper.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Yes, yes. We can't think for ourselves. We're all puppets of the main stream media etc etc

I always love how people suddenly think that people who they've always disagreed with are suddenly correct when they hold a similar opinion. Me, if someone I've always thought was wrong suddenly agrees with me then I question my own position.

I always remember suddenly realising that I agreed with quite a few of David Aaronovitch's (sp?) opinion pieces and immediately felt he'd moved towards my way of thinking. I dug through a few of his old pieces and realised that we'd both moved towards each other.

I guess if Iranian and Russian state media are paying Corbyn then he'll do as they tell him.

Well,....not everyone in this country takes part in political debate aside from reading the tabloids so the control of the media is critical. Murdoch, Desmond, the Rothermere's and the Lebedev bros...hardly representative is it..?.

I was told that people become more conservative with age but the gross corruption that is at epidemic levels in public life makes me feel that only a more radical approach is going to achieve anything.

Tabloid sales really aren't that high, most people in the country don't read a paper.

And those that do tend to seek out one which accords with their prejudices.

[Stom]

Well,....not everyone in this country takes part in political debate aside from reading the tabloids so the control of the media is critical. Murdoch, Desmond, the Rothermere's and the Lebedev bros...hardly representative is it..?.

I was told that people become more conservative with age but the gross corruption that is at epidemic levels in public life makes me feel that only a more radical approach is going to achieve anything.

Tabloid sales really aren't that high, most people in the country don't read a paper.

And those that do tend to seek out one which accords with their prejudices.

Actually, I feel that, especially nowadays, Tabloid readers have been reading the same paper for decades. They're not new readers (unless children of old readers, sometimes), and as the paper has changed its tone towards one problem or another, the individuals PoV is also changed. That's why it's dangerous.

The younger generation are more likely to gather their news from Facebook, Twitter, etc., which is why the classification of FB, Twitter, etc., as tech companies and not media companies is also dangerous. Newspapers were not classed as tech just because they had printing presses...

But, sorry, that's a different discussion

[kk67]

Tabloid sales really aren't that high, most people in the country don't read a paper.

Or their e-quivalent. I'm surprised that The Times has stayed behind a paywall. Didn't expect that experiment to last. I haven't read it since. I assume it's picking up the slack now that The Tele' is so celebrity obsessed and tragically poor..?. PEye reports that the Tele has gone from a staff of 400 journos to 30 part timers.

[kk67]

And those that do tend to seek out one which accords with their prejudices.

Yeah. £360 pa for the Times. £360m turnover from 140,000 subscribers in 2013.

[Digby]

I'd still say the Times was my paper of choice, but as I'm not commuting on the train 5 days a week now I actually buy it far less. I don't always agree with the Times, but I do think it's the best written. The Guardian does some really good pieces and actually stands for something more than itself it seems, but it's also full of Guardian articles.

[morepork]

You seem to have missed the point and just decided to become all hyperbolic in its place.

But no, I don't think that will happen. Just as I don't believe we'd have a Nazi Germany if Cash became PM. Doesn't mean that I'm not worried about the prospect of a lurch to the left Just as many socialists went in to hyperbole overload after the last election.

Countering perceived hyperbole with anecdotal hyperbole. Nice. Best we just leave things as they are then.

I witnessed first hand such hyperbole on wide and varied media. To me it's not anecdotal.

My point is that, just as many would see Fox as PM as dangerous so people see Corbyn as PM as dangerous. Myself, who is quite happy to see power float around the middle whilst preferably just to the right, I see both scenarios as dangerous. Though, for some reason you took that to mean that I thought Corbyn would turn the UK into some international outcast. Perhaps we have different ideas of what dangerous is. To me it's a lurch away from what has been the centre ground since I was born, whether that be left or right. For someone who waxes lyrical about the dangerous free marketeers in the NZ political system I thought you'd understand.

I think we differ on the definition of centre ground here. If you don't make waves the scum settles on the surface.

Thanks for the critcism, but NZ and the UK are cast in the same mold. Politicians in both countries push this centre ground myth on stage and cater to slash and sell behind the scenes. When they are done, they get a nice cushy payout on the board of directors somewhere.