So, (some of) the truth about Syria

[Donny osmond]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/reali ... um=twitter

Reality check: are US-led airstrikes on Syrians as bad as Russia's?

The Labour party has implied that the civilian death toll from coalition bombings is comparable with that from Russian ones

 A coalition airstrike on Isis targets during an operation with the Free Syrian Army in Dabiq, Syria. Photograph: Anadolu Agency/Getty Images

A Labour party spokesman has suggested there is too much focus on Russian atrocities in Syria, which “sometimes diverts attention from other atrocities that are taking place”, and highlighted killings by the US-led coalition.

The remarks implied the casualties were comparable, and that coalition attacks had been ignored by politicians, rights groups and the media in the west. What are the facts about civilian deaths in Syria?

No party to Syria’s brutal civil war has joined the conflict without killing civilians, but the scale of deaths caused by Russia’s bombing campaign is much higher than that from coalition airstrikes.

Russian attacks also appear to have deliberately targeted civilians and the infrastructure of civilian life – markets, hospitals and homes – while the coalition has been trying to avoid or limit civilian casualties, although it could do far more, human rights groups said.

“The coalition kills too many civilians but it is clear they are trying to limit those deaths, while everything we understand about the way Russia is behaving shows they are deliberately targeting civilians, civilian infrastructure,” said Chris Woods, the director of Monitoring group Airwars.

“We’d certainly agree that the solution is definitely not more bombs but … Russia and the coalition are fighting different wars when it comes to civilians.”

Airwars has recorded 3,600 civilian deaths caused by Russian bombing raids since they joined the Syrian conflict just over a year ago, a number Woods described as an “absolute minimum”.

In contrast, the coalition has caused nearly 900 civilian deaths over 26 months of bombing, 19 acknowledged by the coalition itself and another 858 recorded by monitoring groups.

“That means the Russians’ death rate probably outpaces the coalition by a rate of eight to one,” Woods said. 

He added that the toll from Russian airstrikes may rise because the group’s analysts, who comb through each reported case of a civilian death to verify the attacks, were struggling to keep up with the pace of attacks.

“We are running a huge backlog of cases because the Russians are alleged to have killed so many civilians.” 

Russia has not acknowledged causing any civilian deaths, and says it is only targeting “terrorists”.

The civilian deaths at the hands of the coalition have not gone unreported in the media or by rights groups, as evidenced byoutrage at the mass casualties this summer. 

Amnesty International, which will release a report on the civilian toll of US strikes this month, has tallied at least 300 deaths “and the real figure is likely at least twice that”, said a Syria researcher for the group, Neil Sammonds.

However, he said, the rate of killing was not comparable with attacks by Russian planes, or killings by the government they were supporting, which dwarf the death toll from any of the outside parties to the conflict.

Forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad were responsible for the majority of killings in the country, monitoring groups agreed. 

The Violations Documentation Centre said just more than 147,000 civilians had been killed between the start of the war in 2011 and 11 October.

It only attributes deaths with clear evidence so not all are accounted for, but its records hold the Syrian government and affiliated militia responsible for 92,000 civilian deaths, Russian forces for 3,412, Syrian opposition fighters, excluding Isis, for 2,470, and Isis for 3,078. It attributes 768 to the international coalition.

“Syrians, especially progressive ones, find it bewildering that so many supposedly similar-minded people worldwide don’t ally with the moderate opposition, and seem to gloss over the sickening abuses of the Assad regime and Russia,” Sammonds said. “Criticisms of the regime and Russia are followed in the same breath with condemnations of the US, whose abuses are far, far fewer.”

The Syrian Network for Human Rights had a higher toll than the VDC, but similar ratios. It said that by the end of December 2015, government forces had killed more than 187,000 civilians, armed opposition groups nearly 3,500, Russian forces 2,585, Isis 2,503 and coalition airstrikes

[kk67]

Gazprom v Halliburton.

[Adder]

I do not despair Donny, you are a good guy. You will soon be voting for Independence.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

[rowan]

Russia has been invited by the elected government to help fight the terrorists and is therefore operating within the boundaries of international law. The US has not been invited by the elected government and is therefore operating outside of international law. Were it the other way around, the Western media would be screaming blue murder. Oh, wait, they're already doing that anyway...

[OptimisticJock]

Russia has been invited by the elected government to help fight the terrorists and is therefore operating within the boundaries of international law. The US has not been invited by the elected government and is therefore operating outside of international law. Were it the other way around, the Western media would be screaming blue murder. Oh, wait, they're already doing that anyway...

Thousands of civi deaths are OK then. They have an invite after all.

[OptimisticJock]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/reali ... um=twitter

Reality check: are US-led airstrikes on Syrians as bad as Russia's?

The Labour party has implied that the civilian death toll from coalition bombings is comparable with that from Russian ones

 A coalition airstrike on Isis targets during an operation with the Free Syrian Army in Dabiq, Syria. Photograph: Anadolu Agency/Getty Images

A Labour party spokesman has suggested there is too much focus on Russian atrocities in Syria, which “sometimes diverts attention from other atrocities that are taking place”, and highlighted killings by the US-led coalition.

The remarks implied the casualties were comparable, and that coalition attacks had been ignored by politicians, rights groups and the media in the west. What are the facts about civilian deaths in Syria?

No party to Syria’s brutal civil war has joined the conflict without killing civilians, but the scale of deaths caused by Russia’s bombing campaign is much higher than that from coalition airstrikes.

Russian attacks also appear to have deliberately targeted civilians and the infrastructure of civilian life – markets, hospitals and homes – while the coalition has been trying to avoid or limit civilian casualties, although it could do far more, human rights groups said.

“The coalition kills too many civilians but it is clear they are trying to limit those deaths, while everything we understand about the way Russia is behaving shows they are deliberately targeting civilians, civilian infrastructure,” said Chris Woods, the director of Monitoring group Airwars.

“We’d certainly agree that the solution is definitely not more bombs but … Russia and the coalition are fighting different wars when it comes to civilians.”

Airwars has recorded 3,600 civilian deaths caused by Russian bombing raids since they joined the Syrian conflict just over a year ago, a number Woods described as an “absolute minimum”.

In contrast, the coalition has caused nearly 900 civilian deaths over 26 months of bombing, 19 acknowledged by the coalition itself and another 858 recorded by monitoring groups.

“That means the Russians’ death rate probably outpaces the coalition by a rate of eight to one,” Woods said. 

He added that the toll from Russian airstrikes may rise because the group’s analysts, who comb through each reported case of a civilian death to verify the attacks, were struggling to keep up with the pace of attacks.

“We are running a huge backlog of cases because the Russians are alleged to have killed so many civilians.” 

Russia has not acknowledged causing any civilian deaths, and says it is only targeting “terrorists”.

The civilian deaths at the hands of the coalition have not gone unreported in the media or by rights groups, as evidenced byoutrage at the mass casualties this summer. 

Amnesty International, which will release a report on the civilian toll of US strikes this month, has tallied at least 300 deaths “and the real figure is likely at least twice that”, said a Syria researcher for the group, Neil Sammonds.

However, he said, the rate of killing was not comparable with attacks by Russian planes, or killings by the government they were supporting, which dwarf the death toll from any of the outside parties to the conflict.

Forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad were responsible for the majority of killings in the country, monitoring groups agreed. 

The Violations Documentation Centre said just more than 147,000 civilians had been killed between the start of the war in 2011 and 11 October.

It only attributes deaths with clear evidence so not all are accounted for, but its records hold the Syrian government and affiliated militia responsible for 92,000 civilian deaths, Russian forces for 3,412, Syrian opposition fighters, excluding Isis, for 2,470, and Isis for 3,078. It attributes 768 to the international coalition.

“Syrians, especially progressive ones, find it bewildering that so many supposedly similar-minded people worldwide don’t ally with the moderate opposition, and seem to gloss over the sickening abuses of the Assad regime and Russia,” Sammonds said. “Criticisms of the regime and Russia are followed in the same breath with condemnations of the US, whose abuses are far, far fewer.”

The Syrian Network for Human Rights had a higher toll than the VDC, but similar ratios. It said that by the end of December 2015, government forces had killed more than 187,000 civilians, armed opposition groups nearly 3,500, Russian forces 2,585, Isis 2,503 and coalition airstrikes

I'd hope US inflicted deaths aren't that high.

[rowan]

Russia has been invited by the elected government to help fight the terrorists and is therefore operating within the boundaries of international law. The US has not been invited by the elected government and is therefore operating outside of international law. Were it the other way around, the Western media would be screaming blue murder. Oh, wait, they're already doing that anyway...

Thousands of civi deaths are OK then. They have an invite after all.

Thousands of civilian deaths according to who? The Western media? How about the 8 million Muslims the US has killed over the past 25 years? Oh, that's "collateral damage." When the Russians do it in their attempts to drive the terrorists out of areas where they are holed up among civilians (basically using civilians as human shields), suddenly it's an outrageous crime against humanity.

[OptimisticJock]

Russia has been invited by the elected government to help fight the terrorists and is therefore operating within the boundaries of international law. The US has not been invited by the elected government and is therefore operating outside of international law. Were it the other way around, the Western media would be screaming blue murder. Oh, wait, they're already doing that anyway...

Thousands of civi deaths are OK then. They have an invite after all.

Thousands of civilian deaths according to who? The Western media? How about the 8 million Muslims the US has killed over the past 25 years? Oh, that's "collateral damage." When the Russians do it in their attempts to drive the terrorists out of areas where they are holed up among civilians (basically using civilians as human shields), suddenly it's an outrageous crime against humanity.

you're wired to the moon mate.

[rowan]

No, I'm just not a brainwashed apologist for American war crimes. The bottom line is the Russians have been invited there and the Americans haven't. But who violated the truce, and allowed their terrorist allies to regain vital territory, by spending several hours bombing Syrian soldiers - killing more than 80? That is an horrific war crime and a blatant attack on another sovereign country. America has murdered 8 million Muslims in the past 25 years and upward of 20 million human beings since WWII. It has attacked dozens of countries and been involved in covert operations in dozens more. It has supported dictatorship, rape and torture, and runs a concentration camp at Guantanamo. It bombed South East Asia to smithereens in the 60s & 70s, has supported the Apartheid regimes of South Africa and Israel, propped up brutal dictatorships throughout Latin America, murdered democratic leaders in Africa and appointed thugs in their place, and has been bombing the Middle East to smithereens for the past quarter of a century. Even domestically the US continues to mass murder its African American population and ride roughshod over Native American rights. The world has not seen such widespread evil as this since the British Empire was at its height - or nadir, depending on how you look at it. We are talking about the epitome of evil, of course.

[OptimisticJock]

you cannae be for real

[Sandydragon]

Russia has been invited by the elected government to help fight the terrorists and is therefore operating within the boundaries of international law. The US has not been invited by the elected government and is therefore operating outside of international law. Were it the other way around, the Western media would be screaming blue murder. Oh, wait, they're already doing that anyway...

Russia is breaking the Geneva conventions. There are committing war crimes.

[Digby]

you cannae be for real

There is some good news. Today Rowan is blaming the US for 8 muslim million deaths in the last 25 years, and only a few weeks back that figure was 10 million.

Your country has murdered more than 20 million people since WWII, including around 10 million Muslims since the beginning of the 1990s, and every taxpaying American is a party to that.

So whilst he's way out there beyond the fringe he's perhaps plotting a fast trajectory back to something which may pass as normalcy if the figure continues to drop at 2 million or so every couple of weeks.

[rowan]

8 million is the last official figure. 10 million is the widely accepted current figure. At least, so far as I'm able to ascertain.

Who says Russia is violating the Geneva Convention? America did that by sending in terrorists to destabilize the country, then using that as a pretext to effectively invade Syria itself, but "accidently" bombing Syrians and Kurds all the time and helping the terrorists - thereby prolonging the conflict, just as they managed to prolong all the others they've created across the region. Russia, meanwhile, is there at the request of the government to help fight the terrorists, and their efficacy was in indeed praised in a leaked US intelligence report.

When Americans and Western Europeans come to realize Russia is not the great threat to civilization they have been brainwashed to believe it is, they will be forced to accept that their own nations are the perpetrators of the vast majority of the evil in this world.

[Digby]

8 million killed by the US can't possibly be an official figure. Though actually if you're just going to start counting people who've died in the last 25 years who weren't actually killed by the US then it's also an oddly low figure.

[rowan]

[WaspInWales]

Is it me or does he seem a bit pro-Russian?

It's nice that the view is aired on the Beeb though.

[Donny osmond]

I do not despair Donny, you are a good guy. You will soon be voting for Independence.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

I try to be a good guy, but thanks for the affirmation.

When I start voting for independence, you may feel free to change your mind...

[rowan]

No, I simply haven't been brainwashed to hate them

[WaspInWales]

No, I simply haven't been brainwashed to hate them

Who is the UN person?

[bruce]

I have my doubts it's a Lady!

[Adder]

I do not despair Donny, you are a good guy. You will soon be voting for Independence.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

I try to be a good guy, but thanks for the affirmation.

When I start voting for independence, you may feel free to change your mind...

Praise Saint Nicola, Hallelujah oh mighty Alex! Cast aside the evil Ruth.

[rowan]

This is what the Trump charade is designed to distract you from . . .

[WaspInWales]

No, I simply haven't been brainwashed to hate them

Contrary to your implication that I have been brainwashed to hate them, I was just pointing out that the fella in the video seems pro-Russian. After reading a few other of his pieces and seeing some interviews, I stand by that comment.

That's fine though, just like the lunatic people who are blind to issues caused by the west, this fella is probably a little generous in his views about Russia and Putin.

[rowan]

No, I simply haven't been brainwashed to hate them

Contrary to your implication that I have been brainwashed to hate them, I was just pointing out that the fella in the video seems pro-Russian. After reading a few other of his pieces and seeing some interviews, I stand by that comment.

That's fine though, just like the lunatic people who are blind to issues caused by the west, this fella is probably a little generous in his views about Russia and Putin.

Apologies. My mistake. Not sure I agree with you about the fella in the video, but everyone's entitled to their view, of course.

Meanwhile, Putin explains why he won't be going to France: https://rbth.com/international/2016/10/ ... nde_638879

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Russia has been invited by the elected government to help fight the terrorists and is therefore operating within the boundaries of international law. The US has not been invited by the elected government and is therefore operating outside of international law. Were it the other way around, the Western media would be screaming blue murder. Oh, wait, they're already doing that anyway...

Being invited by a government committing war crimes doesnt mean that you are within international law in all respectsif you decide to target civilians.

If you'd bothered to read the article you would see that these comparative death figures come not from the western media, but from the likes of Amnesty International. Amnesty can be accused of many things but being the puppets of western governments is not one of them.