Statistic of the Day

[scuzzaman]

The crazy thing about this All Blacks side is that what they're doing (have already done, considering the record win streak) ought not to be possible.

They lost 700+ test caps experience after the RWC, among them two of the greatest ever players of the game.

Are they "rebuilding"? Did they suffer a years long dip in performance? Did they even fecking notice?!?

No, they've actually got better. It shouldn't be possible, but there it is. Hats off to Shags and the rest of the staff and team. An amazing achievement.

Lizard, got any stats ideas for comparative post-RWC retirement performances?

[Lizard]

The crazy thing about this All Blacks side is that what they're doing (have already done, considering the record win streak) ought not to be possible.

They lost 700+ test caps experience after the RWC, among them two of the greatest ever players of the game.

Are they "rebuilding"? Did they suffer a years long dip in performance? Did they even fecking notice?!?

No, they've actually got better. It shouldn't be possible, but there it is. Hats off to Shags and the rest of the staff and team. An amazing achievement.

Lizard, got any stats ideas for comparative post-RWC retirement performances?

I've done that before, on an old board. The short version is the post-1987 All Blacks were awesome for another year (but didn't suffer many retirements as these days now the 4-year cycle is set). The 2003 England team suffered a precipitous and immediate decline. Everyone else was relatively poor except the 2011/15 All Blacks who we are all familiar with.

[rowan]

No doubt Lizard is going to be busy on this thread later after the stunner in Chicago, but that was obviously Ireland's first ever win over the All Blacks, meaning only Scotland from the so-called foundation 8 member unions of World Rugby have yet to beat them (don't hold your breath on that count either). Does that also make Ireland just the 6th team ever to beat NZ (if we don't count Rhodesia/Zimbabwe), & Ireland's 40 points was surely one of the highest tallies ever posted against the All Blacks.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I was certain that Argentina would beat us to a victory over the ABs.

[rowan]

Strange thing about Ireland is they've been pretty awesome for quite some time now, but just didn't produce when it counted most - at last year's Rugby World Cup. That's got to be their next assignment, a first ever berth in the World Cup semi-finals.

[hellovating]

Strange thing about Ireland is they've been pretty awesome for quite some time now, but just didn't produce when it counted most - at last year's Rugby World Cup. That's got to be their next assignment, a first ever berth in the World Cup semi-finals.

we're often shite too. it's always a surprise watching us.

[rowan]

Kiss me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was the first time a nation had beaten New Zealand for the first time since France in 1954. Certainly a first in my life-time anyway. I'm not quite that old!!

Btw, they made a play about Munster's 1978 victory over the ABs. I guess yesterday's victory will become an epic movie...

[rowan]

Of the 4 World Cup-winning nations, we find New Zealand has still lost to the least amount of opposing national teams (6), England just two more with 8, South Africa dropped to third last year with 9, and Australia is a distant 4th with 11. Also, only 4 nations, SA, Australia, England & France have ever beaten the All Blacks in NZ.

NZ has lost to: Australia 42 times, SA 35, France 12, England 7, Wales 3 & Ireland once.
England has lost to Wales 57 times, Ireland 47, Scotland 42, France 39, NZ 32, Australia 25, SA 23 and Argentina 4 times.
SA has lost to NZ 55 times, Australia 36, England 12, France 11, Ireland 6, Scotland 5, Wales & Argentina twice each, & Japan once.
Australia has lost to NZ 109 times, SA 46, England 21, France 18, Wales & Ireland 10 each, Scotland 9, Argentina 5, Fiji twice & Samoa and Tonga once apiece.

[Lizard]

Funny. I just logged on to post pretty much what Rowan has said (but without that weird kissing thing). Ka pai, Rowan.

The only additional comment I was going to make was that I hadn't previously twigged that the last time Wales beat NZ, France was yet to do so (although their first time was on the same tour, during which we also lost to Cardiff, drew with Swansea and Ulster, and lost to South-West France, but won the other 30 matches.)

Only France and South Africa have scored 40+ against the All Blacks. Both have done so twice.

[Lizard]

So for completeness...

First/last test wins against the All Blacks:
Ireland: 2016/2016
World XV: 1992/1992
France: 1954/2009
England: 1936/2012
Lions: 1930*/1993
South Africa: 1921/2014
Australia: 1910/2015
Wales: 1905/1953

*Playing as "Great Britain"

[rowan]

Argentina isn't far away, given the advantage of a guaranteed two tests per year against the All Blacks. & Ireland's success might just have given them a psychological boost as well. Even the All Blacks can have a bad day at the office once in a while.

[Lizard]

Yes, I would have bet on Argentina being next to beat us before Ireland.

[rowan]

Wow, Wednesday already - and just 22,978 days since Wales last beat the All Blacks...

[Lizard]

Be fair. It's only 22,971.

[Lizard]

I saw I good tweet the other day; "No one beats Ireland 29 times in a row"*

Inspired by that thought:

Most tests against the All Blacks without a win:
30 Scotland (2 draws)
24 Argentina (1 draw)
Italy 12
Samoa 6
Canada, Fiji, Tonga 5 each
Japan, USA 3 each
Romania 2
Georgia, Namibia, Pacific Islanders, Portugal 1 each



*Of course that was never really on the cards given the draw in 1973, meaning the winning streak was only 22

[rowan]

Maybe Scotland and Argentina should ask to play them in Chicago

[Lizard]

Maybe Scotland and Argentina should ask to play them in Chicago

Our record in non-RWC matches on neutral ground is pretty poor (50%), so it might be a good idea for them!

2008 v AUS, Hong Kong, W
2009 v AUS, Tokyo, W
2010 v AUS, Hong Kong, L
2016 v IRE, Chicago, L

I can see it being a realistic option for Argentina - they've already played one RC match at Twickenham. I'm not sure that Scotland would be a sufficient draw card anywhere else to make it an economic proposition.

[rowan]

It's not so long ago that Ireland were where Scotland is now - and Wales before that. & Scotland very nearly made the semis of the last World Cup, let's remember. So while they don't look remotely threatening to the All Blacks even on their home patch at present, who knows how things will stand a decade from now? The real danger comes, of course, when you start to write teams off...

[Lizard]

Were Ireland ever as much in the doldrums as Scotland?

My view is based not just on the likely quality of the rugby though. Ireland in Chicago has a certain resonance due to the propensity of Americans to feel kinship with the Irish. I'm not aware of any significant Scottish diaspora in a country that could viably host a top level test match.

[af73]

Were Ireland ever as much in the doldrums as Scotland?

We (Scotland) had some decent periods against 5 nations opposition particularly in the 80's/90's

From 1986 - 1999 Scotland played Ireland 15 times, won 13 & drew 1
and versus Wales (1981 - 1999) played 19 won 11 including Cardiff wins in '82, '84 and '90 (Thorburns 70m kick kyboshing the '86 game for us!)
France won at Murrayfield in 1978 but it wouldn't be until 1994 that they did so again.

Grand Slams in 1984 & 1990. Last game stumbles (against England) costing another two in 1995 & 1996 likewise last day defeats at Twickenham costing Triple Crowns (Eng/Wal/Ire) in 1987 and 1993

Thought we had the All Blacks in Auckland in 1990.....but then a hail shower, Derek Bevan and Grant Fox happened.

Them were the days

Our most recent 'turned to sh1t' period coincided with Italy's arrival and with it a convenient annual "battle for the wooden spoon" moniker.

[rowan]

Were Ireland ever as much in the doldrums as Scotland?

My view is based not just on the likely quality of the rugby though. Ireland in Chicago has a certain resonance due to the propensity of Americans to feel kinship with the Irish. I'm not aware of any significant Scottish diaspora in a country that could viably host a top level test match.

As I recall, Ireland were rooted to the bottom of the 5 Nations table for much of the late 80s and 90s, with only the demise of Wales in the latter decade sparing their blushes entirely. In fact, during that period - late 80s/90s - they were 0-13 against France, 1-12 against Scotland , 2-10 against England, and 6-6 against Wales. They also picked up the wooden spoon a few times, of course. Meanwhile they lost 15 straight tests against the SANZAR giants, with the All Blacks topping 60 against them in Dublin in '97, they were 2-3 versus Italy and 2-1 versus up-and-coming Argentina, they got hammered 40-15 in Samoa and lost a series 2-0 in Namibia.

I'm not sure even Scotland has plummeted to quite the same depths in the past decade-and-a-half...

[Lizard]

Fair enough. I certainly recalled Scotland being handy in the 80s, but I didn't remember Ireland being that bad. A gap in my knowledge has been filled.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Fair enough. I certainly recalled Scotland being handy in the 80s, but I didn't remember Ireland being that bad. A gap in my knowledge has been filled.

We were really really bad.

[rowan]

Amazing thing about Ireland is their remarkable consistency at the World Cup. They've qualified from the group stages at 7/8 tournaments but never won a single game beyond the group stages, being eliminated at the next stage (6 QFs & 1 repechage) on each occasion. They were runners-up in their group at the first four World Cups, dipped to third in 2007, and finished top in 2011 & 2015.

[Lizard]

Ireland have set a record winning streak against the All Blacks and could extend it this weekend.

Longest Winning Streaks v NZ
South Africa: 6 (1937-1949)
Australia: 3 (1929, equaled 2000-01)
France: 3 (1994-95)
Wales: 2 (1935-1953)
England: 2 (2002-03)
Lions: 1 (1930, equaled 1959, twice in 1971, 1977 & 1993)
Ireland: 1 (2016)