Turkey 15/7/16

[rowan]

Interesting article about Turkey's role in the Middle East here: http://www.thecanary.co/2016/11/15/extr ... -progress/

[rowan]

The government has come up with a brilliant idea to make room for all the journalists, teachers, judges, police officers and soldiers it has been arresting in the wake of a disastrous coup attempt: Let all the rapists out so long as they marry their victims. Simple! http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/outrag ... sCatID=509

[rowan]

Government backs down on this after fierce street demonstrations. Actually, what it entailed was arranged marriages, still common in the east, whereby sexual relationships were established before the girl reached the age of consent; statutory rape, in other words. So I think the anger was mostly directed at the fact the government seemed almost to be legitimizing the practice of arranged marriages, in which the male partner is sometimes decades older than the female.

[rowan]

Never a dull moment in this country, that's for sure. The Syrian regime has, for the first time, struck Turkish troops - who have been operating inside Syrian borders without authority from anybody, under the pretext of "chasing ISIS" (as well as Kurds, of course). 3 Turkish soldiers killed. Given our glorious leader's penchant for volatile hyperbole one might expect all kinds of revenge threats to follow.

But there is a problem with that now, because the EU has formally frozen accession talks with Turkey today due to the draconian response to the so-called "attempted coup." What this means is that Turkey will now likely look eastward instead, to the Shanghai Pact - which includes Russia. So obviously they're not going to want to upset Moscow now by retaliating against its ally Syria.

In addition to which, much relied upon Russian tourism has only just begun to trick back into Turkey following a crippling boycott during the summer due to the shooting down of a Russian plane operating against terrorists in Syria. The lira has apparently hit a low against the dollar at about 3.3 right now.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... z4QqeuRmfn

[Stones of granite]

Never a dull moment in this country, that's for sure. The Syrian regime has, for the first time, struck Turkish troops - who have been operating inside Syrian borders without authority from anybody, under the pretext of "chasing ISIS" (as well as Kurds, of course). 3 Turkish soldiers killed. Given our glorious leader's penchant for volatile hyperbole one might expect all kinds of revenge threats to follow.

But there is a problem with that now, because the EU has formally frozen accession talks with Turkey today due to the draconian response to the so-called "attempted coup." What this means is that Turkey will now likely look eastward instead, to the Shanghai Pact - which includes Russia. So obviously they're not going to want to upset Moscow now by retaliating against its ally Syria.

In addition to which, much relied upon Russian tourism has only just begun to trick back into Turkey following a crippling boycott during the summer due to the shooting down of a Russian plane operating against terrorists in Syria. The lira has apparently hit a low against the dollar at about 3.3 right now.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... z4QqeuRmfn

There is a lot of mystery surrounding this incident. Some facts to consider.
- Turkish forces are nowhere near Syrian Government forces in the location where this incident is reported to have taken place.
- The incident occurred at 3:30am or thereabouts, while the Syrian Airforce had not previously carried out any nighttime attacks, and has a very limited capability to do so.
- The incident occurred on the anniversary of the Turks shooting down a Russian aircraft.

[rowan]

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that. The plot thickens. As predicted, the government is already threatening retaliation, but that would be very myopic, for the reasons mentioned above. The bottom line is, Turkey has no right to be in Syria. ISIS is not a valid reason to simply roll your tanks across foreign borders these days (we all know it's only a pretext). Turkey really needs to stop at this point and take a long, hard look in the mirror. The problem is, when we talk about "Turkey" these days, we are no longer talking about the will of the Turkish people. They have no control over any of this.

[rowan]

From the horse's own mouth, and Turkey is a NATO member

The Turkish military launched its operations in Syria to end the rule of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Nov. 29.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... sCatID=352

[Stones of granite]

From the horse's own mouth, and Turkey is a NATO member

The Turkish military launched its operations in Syria to end the rule of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Nov. 29.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... sCatID=352

Turkey's membership of NATO being relevant how, exactly?

[rowan]

Very much so. Where do you think our glorious leader draws his power from - his bicep muscles perhaps?

Of course, if you prefer the view that he has gone AWOL, and that NATO has absolutely no interest in regime change in Syria or any other secular Middle Eastern nation, and would never dream of getting involved in one, then good luck to you.

[Stones of granite]

Very much so. Where do you think our glorious leader draws his power from - his bicep muscles perhaps?

Of course, if you prefer the view that he has gone AWOL, and that NATO has absolutely no interest in regime change in Syria or any other secular Middle Eastern nation, and would never dream of getting involved in one, then good luck to you.

Your glorious leader doesn't draw any power from NATO, that's for sure. His adventures in Syria are not NATO backed, approved, or even considered wise.

[rowan]

Fact, Turkey is part of NATO. Fact, it has not been kicked out. Fact, America's criticism of Turkey's actions in Syria has been about comparable to its criticisms of Israel in Palestine. Fact, the US continues to support Turkey diplomatically and financially. If you can't read between the lines and figure it out, then good luck to you.

[Stones of granite]

Fact, Turkey is part of NATO. Fact, it has not been kicked out. Fact, America's criticism of Turkey's actions in Syria has been about comparable to its criticisms of Israel in Palestine. Fact, the US continues to support Turkey diplomatically and financially. If you can't read between the lines and figure it out, then good luck to you.

NATO is a defensive alliance, it isn't a foreign policy alliance. If the US supports Turkey diplomatically and financially (which I doubt) then that is a bilateral issue between the US and Turkey and nothing to do with NATO. Saudi Arabia isn't a NATO member and there is no doubt that the US support them diplomatically.

You're just confused.

[rowan]

NATO is a defensive alliance,

This comment alone shows just how little you know about anything at all, let alone Turkey's relationship with the US and the rest of NATO.

[rowan]

Turkish war crimes? Don’t be absurd - they’re in NATO!

Cizre Kurds have accused Turkish forces of carrying out a civilian massacre. It is alleged that 150 people were burnt to death in a basement, and civilians were denied access to food and medical supplies.

An RT film crew arrived recently in the ruined town. Amid the scenes of destruction, one woman witness accused Turkish forces of killing ‘three-four- maybe five hundred people’. There have also been disturbing claims that some of the victims were beheaded.

RT has submitted its footage of Cizre to leading international human rights organizations and asked if full investigations will follow.

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/336253-turki ... imes-nato/

If there were global justice, Nato would be in the dock over Libya


Libya was supposed to be different. The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan had been learned, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy insisted last year. This would be a real humanitarian intervention. Unlike Iraq, there would be no boots on the ground. Unlike in Afghanistan, Nato air power would be used to support a fight for freedom and prevent a massacre. Unlike the Kosovo campaign, there would be no indiscriminate cluster bombs: only precision weapons would be used. This would be a war to save civilian lives.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nato-libya

NATO War Crimes in Afghanistan: A Never Ending Story

A close look at Afghanistan proves that a lot of these "human errors" have been happening there since the NATO-invasion started.
Recently, the U.S. army announced that it suspended ten military personnel who have been held responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan last October. The attack, which was clearly a war crime according to different human rights organizations including the United Nations, killed at least 42 civilians, mostly medical staff members and patients.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinio ... -0047.html

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

I watched Dr Strangelove the other day. I have seen it perhaps a dozen times; it makes sense of senseless news. When Major TJ "King" Kong goes "toe to toe with the Rooskies" and flies his rogue B52 nuclear bomber to a target in Russia, it's left to General "Buck" Turgidson to reassure the president. Strike first, says the general, and "you got no more than 10-20 million killed, tops". President Merkin Muffley: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler." General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr President, if you were more concerned with the American people than with your image in the history books."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-china-us

[Stones of granite]

NATO is a defensive alliance,

This comment alone shows just how little you know about anything at all, let alone Turkey's relationship with the US and the rest of NATO.

Is this the best you can come up with?
Prove something different.
Your polemic is tiresome and boring me.

[rowan]

As a neutral I view those attempting to deny or justify NATO/American war crimes in the same light as I view Holocaust denialsts. Neo Nazis and apologists for the British Empire. Here once again is just the tip of an iceberg for you (you failed to address any of this last time):

Turkish war crimes? Don’t be absurd - they’re in NATO!

Cizre Kurds have accused Turkish forces of carrying out a civilian massacre. It is alleged that 150 people were burnt to death in a basement, and civilians were denied access to food and medical supplies.

An RT film crew arrived recently in the ruined town. Amid the scenes of destruction, one woman witness accused Turkish forces of killing ‘three-four- maybe five hundred people’. There have also been disturbing claims that some of the victims were beheaded.

RT has submitted its footage of Cizre to leading international human rights organizations and asked if full investigations will follow.

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/336253-turki ... imes-nato/

If there were global justice, Nato would be in the dock over Libya


Libya was supposed to be different. The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan had been learned, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy insisted last year. This would be a real humanitarian intervention. Unlike Iraq, there would be no boots on the ground. Unlike in Afghanistan, Nato air power would be used to support a fight for freedom and prevent a massacre. Unlike the Kosovo campaign, there would be no indiscriminate cluster bombs: only precision weapons would be used. This would be a war to save civilian lives.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nato-libya

NATO War Crimes in Afghanistan: A Never Ending Story

A close look at Afghanistan proves that a lot of these "human errors" have been happening there since the NATO-invasion started.
Recently, the U.S. army announced that it suspended ten military personnel who have been held responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan last October. The attack, which was clearly a war crime according to different human rights organizations including the United Nations, killed at least 42 civilians, mostly medical staff members and patients.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinio ... -0047.html

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

I watched Dr Strangelove the other day. I have seen it perhaps a dozen times; it makes sense of senseless news. When Major TJ "King" Kong goes "toe to toe with the Rooskies" and flies his rogue B52 nuclear bomber to a target in Russia, it's left to General "Buck" Turgidson to reassure the president. Strike first, says the general, and "you got no more than 10-20 million killed, tops". President Merkin Muffley: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler." General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr President, if you were more concerned with the American people than with your image in the history books."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-china-us

[Stones of granite]

As a neutral I view those attempting to deny or justify NATO/American war crimes in the same light as I view Holocaust denialsts. Neo Nazis and apologists for the British Empire. Here once again is just the tip of an iceberg for you (you failed to address any of this last time):

Turkish war crimes? Don’t be absurd - they’re in NATO!

Cizre Kurds have accused Turkish forces of carrying out a civilian massacre. It is alleged that 150 people were burnt to death in a basement, and civilians were denied access to food and medical supplies.

An RT film crew arrived recently in the ruined town. Amid the scenes of destruction, one woman witness accused Turkish forces of killing ‘three-four- maybe five hundred people’. There have also been disturbing claims that some of the victims were beheaded.

RT has submitted its footage of Cizre to leading international human rights organizations and asked if full investigations will follow.

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/336253-turki ... imes-nato/

If there were global justice, Nato would be in the dock over Libya


Libya was supposed to be different. The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan had been learned, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy insisted last year. This would be a real humanitarian intervention. Unlike Iraq, there would be no boots on the ground. Unlike in Afghanistan, Nato air power would be used to support a fight for freedom and prevent a massacre. Unlike the Kosovo campaign, there would be no indiscriminate cluster bombs: only precision weapons would be used. This would be a war to save civilian lives.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nato-libya

NATO War Crimes in Afghanistan: A Never Ending Story

A close look at Afghanistan proves that a lot of these "human errors" have been happening there since the NATO-invasion started.
Recently, the U.S. army announced that it suspended ten military personnel who have been held responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan last October. The attack, which was clearly a war crime according to different human rights organizations including the United Nations, killed at least 42 civilians, mostly medical staff members and patients.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinio ... -0047.html

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

I watched Dr Strangelove the other day. I have seen it perhaps a dozen times; it makes sense of senseless news. When Major TJ "King" Kong goes "toe to toe with the Rooskies" and flies his rogue B52 nuclear bomber to a target in Russia, it's left to General "Buck" Turgidson to reassure the president. Strike first, says the general, and "you got no more than 10-20 million killed, tops". President Merkin Muffley: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler." General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr President, if you were more concerned with the American people than with your image in the history books."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-china-us

You're not a neutral.

[rowan]

Why, because I don't share your apologist views on the biggest, most destructive war machine on the planet ever in history?

Anyway, this is a bit of a shocker too: http://europe.newsweek.com/michael-rubi ... 6379?rm=eu

[Digby]

Why, because I don't share your apologist views on the biggest, most destructive war machine on the planet ever in history?

Anyway, this is a bit of a shocker too: http://europe.newsweek.com/michael-rubi ... 6379?rm=eu

Really it's just the weapons are more powerful, and actually for all its faults (and there are many) the USA is the most benevolent superpower the world has ever seen - this is progress.

[rowan]

Why, because I don't share your apologist views on the biggest, most destructive war machine on the planet ever in history?

Anyway, this is a bit of a shocker too: http://europe.newsweek.com/michael-rubi ... 6379?rm=eu

Really it's just the weapons are more powerful, and actually for all its faults (and there are many) the USA is the most benevolent superpower the world has ever seen - this is progress.

Another apologist defending the the biggest, most destructive war machine on the planet - ever. But the privileged white 1st world view is not shared by NATO's countless victims throughout the Middle East and elsewhere, millions of whom are no longer with us, of course, millions more of whom are now refugees, and tens of millions more of whom have been adversely affected by NATO wars one way or another. Don't let that trouble your conscience. & throughout the Middle East the vast majority of people regard America as by far the biggest threat to peace in their region, unsurprisingly, followed by Israel.

[Digby]

By all means label the USA as the least bad rather than most benevolent, which doesn't scream apologist. Still they are the 'best' we've seen so far, which also isn't because they're white so it might be useful to stop noting they're bad because they're white.

[rowan]

As I said, as a neutral those words sound to me like an apologist for the Nazis or the British Empire. No difference whatsoever.

[rowan]

Seems a bomb just went off not far from here. I was sitting here talking with my Lebanese pal about the Syrian refugee situation, and he said he thought he heard an explosion. Next thing it comes up on TV. 20 injuries reported so far. There was a football match nearby tonight as well. Perhaps it's no coincidence, either, that the draft for a new constitution (greatly strengthening the presidency) was submitted to the government this evening...

[rowan]

Injury toll has doubled now to at least 40, but surely some deaths will emerge from the carnage. It seems the bombs were hidden in a police vehicle and that police themselves were the targets. This occurred close to the Besiktas football stadium, and there was a match tonight. I had to walk through the hordes of fans on my way home from work, as per usual on Saturday evenings. Best guess is it was a PKK attack, targetting police, in response to Turkish military raids on Kurds along the Syrian border recently, which have reportedly killed hundreds.

Update: Reuters reporting 13 confirmed deaths but this is not being reported by Turkish news as far as I can tell...
Update: Local press now reporting more than 70 injured. The place must have been packed - probably with football fans.

[rowan]

About 30 dead being reported now, including 27 cops and a suicide bomber. Almost 200 injured, including many football fans.