Is it essential...

[Donny osmond]

... that we live in a democracy? Given how our various imperfect implementations of democracy have lead to alienation, inequality and the march of nationalism, I can understand the feeling against it, but without any idea of proposed replacements (anarchy?, benevolent dictatorship?) I wouldn't be that quick to speak against democracy as a concept, maybe we need to practice it a bit more to make it perfect?

[rowan]

Democracy works really well for the majority of the population where the indigenous population has been reduced to a minority. But the non-indigenous majority need to be sure not to allow too much immigration from anywhere but the 'mother land' or else democracy stops being so convenient.

[Sandydragon]

Democracy is a terrible system of government, but it still beats the alternatives. A benevolent dictatorship would be the most effective in many ways, but without the pressure valve of elections, there is only one way that can end.

Other methods seem more successful, but all bear the seeds of their own destruction. At somepoint a critical mass will decide that they have had enough of being dictated to.

[Stones of granite]

We don't need no steenkin' democracry. Just Fidel...

[Stones of granite]

Democracy works really well for the majority of the population where the indigenous population has been reduced to a minority. But the non-indigenous majority need to be sure not to allow too much immigration from anywhere but the 'mother land' or else democracy stops being so convenient.

What about places where the indigenous population are the majority? Like Russia?

Oh....

[rowan]

Good luck defining the indigenous identity of Russians. In countries where the indigenous or Mestizo population is the majority, such as Latin America, indigenous or Mestizo leaders have been elected.

[Stones of granite]

Good luck defining the indigenous identity of Russians. In countries where the indigenous or Mestizo population is the majority, such as Latin America, indigenous or Mestizo leaders have been elected.

Russians are Russian. And so is anyone else who speaks Russian, or who should speak Russian. Or once spoke Russian.

Those pesky indigenous and Mestizos should know by now that electing a leader will get them nowhere. What they really need is a Fidel.

[rowan]

Russians are Russian. And so is anyone else who speaks Russian, or who should speak Russian. Or once spoke Russian.

Well, the original "Rus" spoke Swedish, actually. But I'm pretty sure you are aware that modern day Russia is more diverse ethnically than most continents.

[Stones of granite]

Russians are Russian. And so is anyone else who speaks Russian, or who should speak Russian. Or once spoke Russian.

Well, the original "Rus" spoke Swedish, actually. But I'm pretty sure you are aware that modern day Russia is more diverse ethnically than most continents.

Of course, but they are Russian Tatars, etc....

[rowan]

There are around 160 different ethnic groups indigenous to what is now defined as Russia. Tatars are just under 4% of the population at just over 5 million residents.

The following lists all ethnicities resolved by the 2010 census, grouped by language:

Indo-European 116,443,421 (84.86%)
Slavic 113,545,521 (82.74%)
East Slavs 113,466,552 (82.68%)
Russians 111,016,896 (80.90%)
Ukrainians 1,927,988 (1.40%)
Belarusians 521,443 (0.38%)
Ruthenians 225 (0.00%)
West Slavs 49,347 (0.03%)
Poles 47,125 (0.03%)
Czechs 1,898 (0.00%)
Slovaks 324 (0.00%)
South Slavs 29,622 (0.02%)
Bulgarians 24,038 (0.02%)
Serbs 3,510 (0.00%)
Slovenes 1,008 (0.00%)
Macedonians 325 (0.00%)
Croats 304 (0.00%)
Bosnians 256 (0.00%)
Montenegrins 181 (0.00%)
Armenian 1,184,435 (0.86%)
Armenians 1,182,388 (0.86%)
Hemshins 2,047 (0.00%)
Hellenic 856,640 (0.6%)
Pontic Greeks (including Caucasus Greeks)
Iranic 806,953 (0.59%)
Ossetians 528,515 (0.39%)
Tajiks 200,303 (0.15%)
Yazidis 40,586 (0.03%)
Kurds 23,232 (0.02%)
Afghans 5,350 (0.00%)
Persians 3,696 (0.00%)
Talysh 2,529 (0.00%)
Tats 1,585 (0.00%)
Pamiris 363 (0.00%)
Germanic 396,660 (0.29%)
Germans 394,138 (0.29%)
Indo-Aryan 209,572 (0.15%)
Roma 204,958 (0.15%)
Indians 4,058 (0.00%)
Pakistani 507 (0.00%)
Central Asian Gypsies 49 (0.00%)
Baltic 50,356 (0.04%)
Lithuanians 31,377 (0.02%)
Latvians 18,979 (0.01%)
Romance 164,284 (0.12%)
Moldovans 156,400 (0.11%)
Romanians 3,201 (0.00%)
French 1,475 (0.00%)
Italians 1,370 (0.00%)
Spanish 1,162 (0.00%)
Cubans 676 (0.00%)
other
Americans 1,572 (0.00%)
British 950 (0.00%)
Mountain Jews 762 (0.00%)
Central Asian Jews 32 (0.00%)
Turkic 12,006,361 (8.75%)
Northwestern Turkic (Kipchak) 8,596,762 (6.26%)
Volga Tatars 5,310,649 (3.87%)
Bashkirs 1,584,554 (1.15%)
Kazakhs 647,732 (0.47%)
Kumyks 503,060 (0.37%)
Karachays 218,403 (0.16%)
Balkars 112,924 (0.08%)
Nogais 103,660 (0.08%)
Kyrgyz 103,422 (0.08%)
Nağaybäk 8,148 (0.01%)
Crimean Tatars 2,449 (0.00%)
Karakalpaks 1,466 (0.00%)
Karaites 205 (0.00%)
Krymchaks 90 (0.00%)
Oghur 1,435,872 (1.05%)
Chuvashs 1,435,872 (1.05%)
Northeastern Turkic (Siberian) 916,641 (0.67%)
Yakuts 478,085 (0.35%)
Tuvans 263,934 (0.19%)
Altay 74,238 (0.05%)
Khakas 72,959 (0.05%)
Shors 12,888 (0.01%)
Dolgans 7,885 (0.01%)
Kumandins 2,892 (0.00%)
Teleuts 2,643 (0.00%)
Tofalars 762 (0.00%)
Chulyms 355 (0.00%)
Southwestern Turkic (Oghuz) 763,528 (0.56%)
Azerbaijani 603,070 (0.44%)
Turks 105,058 (0.08%)
Turkmens 36,885 (0.03%)
Gagauz 13,690 (0.01%)
Meskhetian Turks 4,825 (0.00%)
Southeastern Turkic (Karluk) 293,558 (0.21%)
Uzbeks 289,862 (0.21%)
Uyghurs 3,696 (0.00%)
Mongolic 651,355 (0.47%)
Buryats 461,389 (0.34%)
Kalmyks 183,372 (0.13%)
Soyots 3,608 (0.00%)
Khalkha Mongols 2,986 (0.00%)
Caucasian 5,194,015 (3.78%)
Northeast Caucasian 4,262,817 (3.11%)
Chechens 1,431,360 (1.04%)
Avars 912,090 (0.66%)
Dargins 589,386 (0.43%)
Lezgins 473,722 (0.35%)
Ingush 444,833 (0.32%)
Laks 178,630 (0.13%)
Tabasarans 146,360 (0.11%)
Rutuls 35,240 (0.03%)
Aguls 34,160 (0.02%)
Tsakhurs 12,769 (0.01%)
Udis 4,267 (0.00%)
Northwest Caucasian 773,317 (0.56%)
Kabardians 516,826 (0.38%)
Adyghe 124,835 (0.09%)
Cherkess 73,184 (0.05%)
Abazas 43,341 (0.03%)
Abkhaz 11,249 (0.01%)
Shapsugs 3,882 (0.00%)
Kartvelian 157,881 (0.12%)
Georgians 157,803 (0.11%)
Georgian Jews 78 (0.00%)
Uralic 2,371,398 (1.73%)
Permic 877,191 (0.64%)
Udmurts 552,299 (0.40%)
Komi 228,235 (0.17%)
Komi-Permyak 94,456 (0.07%)
Besermyan 2,201 (0.00%)
Mordvins 744,237 (0.54%)
Mari 547,605 (0.40%)
Baltic Finnic 105,223 (0.06%)
Karelians 60,815 (0.04%)
Finns 20,267 (0.01%)
Estonians 17,875 (0.01%)
Veps 5,936 (0.00%)
Izhorians 266 (0.00%)
Votes 64 (0.00%)
Samoyedic 49,378 (0.04%)
Nenets 44,640 (0.03%)
Selkups 3,649 (0.00%)
Nganasans 862 (0.00%)
Enets 227 (0.00%)
Khanty 30,943 (0.02%)
Mansi 12,269 (0.01%)
Hungarians 2,781 (0.00%)
Sami 1,771 (0.00%)

Just off the top of my head, of course

[Eugene Wrayburn]

... that we live in a democracy? Given how our various imperfect implementations of democracy have lead to alienation, inequality and the march of nationalism, I can understand the feeling against it, but without any idea of proposed replacements (anarchy?, benevolent dictatorship?) I wouldn't be that quick to speak against democracy as a concept, maybe we need to practice it a bit more to make it perfect?

It's a poor question. Anyone who has travelled knows that one can live and live well in non-democracies. So essential to what?

[kk67]

It's a poor question. Anyone who has travelled knows that one can live and live well in non-democracies. So essential to what?

I'm delighted you've lived well in non-democracies.

That plummet is worrying. Notice the spike in the UK after they voted out Winston Churchill.

[Lizard]

The problem with this, and much more generally, is that people seem to have forgotten that "democracy" is only one side of the coin in modern "free" countries. The other is the respect for certain inalienable human rights regardless of the view of the majority. The former without the latter leaves minorities (even large ones) vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority.

The content and method of recognition of the inalienable rights might vary, but without them a "democracy" is not necessarily free.

It's probably an open question whether a dictatorship with the rule of law and human rights is preferable to a democracy without those safeguards.

[Sandydragon]

... that we live in a democracy? Given how our various imperfect implementations of democracy have lead to alienation, inequality and the march of nationalism, I can understand the feeling against it, but without any idea of proposed replacements (anarchy?, benevolent dictatorship?) I wouldn't be that quick to speak against democracy as a concept, maybe we need to practice it a bit more to make it perfect?

It's a poor question. Anyone who has travelled knows that one can live and live well in non-democracies. So essential to what?

As a visitor of course. But what about as a local who is confined (often) by the limits of that the government will allow you to do? At the risk of sounding a bit Braveheart, what price freedom?

[Stones of granite]

There are around 160 different ethnic groups indigenous to what is now defined as Russia. Tatars are just under 4% of the population at just over 5 million residents.

The following lists all ethnicities resolved by the 2010 census, grouped by language:

Indo-European 116,443,421 (84.86%)
Slavic 113,545,521 (82.74%)
East Slavs 113,466,552 (82.68%)
Russians 111,016,896 (80.90%)
Ukrainians 1,927,988 (1.40%)
Belarusians 521,443 (0.38%)
Ruthenians 225 (0.00%)
West Slavs 49,347 (0.03%)
Poles 47,125 (0.03%)
Czechs 1,898 (0.00%)
Slovaks 324 (0.00%)
South Slavs 29,622 (0.02%)
Bulgarians 24,038 (0.02%)
Serbs 3,510 (0.00%)
Slovenes 1,008 (0.00%)
Macedonians 325 (0.00%)
Croats 304 (0.00%)
Bosnians 256 (0.00%)
Montenegrins 181 (0.00%)
Armenian 1,184,435 (0.86%)
Armenians 1,182,388 (0.86%)
Hemshins 2,047 (0.00%)
Hellenic 856,640 (0.6%)
Pontic Greeks (including Caucasus Greeks)
Iranic 806,953 (0.59%)
Ossetians 528,515 (0.39%)
Tajiks 200,303 (0.15%)
Yazidis 40,586 (0.03%)
Kurds 23,232 (0.02%)
Afghans 5,350 (0.00%)
Persians 3,696 (0.00%)
Talysh 2,529 (0.00%)
Tats 1,585 (0.00%)
Pamiris 363 (0.00%)
Germanic 396,660 (0.29%)
Germans 394,138 (0.29%)
Indo-Aryan 209,572 (0.15%)
Roma 204,958 (0.15%)
Indians 4,058 (0.00%)
Pakistani 507 (0.00%)
Central Asian Gypsies 49 (0.00%)
Baltic 50,356 (0.04%)
Lithuanians 31,377 (0.02%)
Latvians 18,979 (0.01%)
Romance 164,284 (0.12%)
Moldovans 156,400 (0.11%)
Romanians 3,201 (0.00%)
French 1,475 (0.00%)
Italians 1,370 (0.00%)
Spanish 1,162 (0.00%)
Cubans 676 (0.00%)
other
Americans 1,572 (0.00%)
British 950 (0.00%)
Mountain Jews 762 (0.00%)
Central Asian Jews 32 (0.00%)
Turkic 12,006,361 (8.75%)
Northwestern Turkic (Kipchak) 8,596,762 (6.26%)
Volga Tatars 5,310,649 (3.87%)
Bashkirs 1,584,554 (1.15%)
Kazakhs 647,732 (0.47%)
Kumyks 503,060 (0.37%)
Karachays 218,403 (0.16%)
Balkars 112,924 (0.08%)
Nogais 103,660 (0.08%)
Kyrgyz 103,422 (0.08%)
Nağaybäk 8,148 (0.01%)
Crimean Tatars 2,449 (0.00%)
Karakalpaks 1,466 (0.00%)
Karaites 205 (0.00%)
Krymchaks 90 (0.00%)
Oghur 1,435,872 (1.05%)
Chuvashs 1,435,872 (1.05%)
Northeastern Turkic (Siberian) 916,641 (0.67%)
Yakuts 478,085 (0.35%)
Tuvans 263,934 (0.19%)
Altay 74,238 (0.05%)
Khakas 72,959 (0.05%)
Shors 12,888 (0.01%)
Dolgans 7,885 (0.01%)
Kumandins 2,892 (0.00%)
Teleuts 2,643 (0.00%)
Tofalars 762 (0.00%)
Chulyms 355 (0.00%)
Southwestern Turkic (Oghuz) 763,528 (0.56%)
Azerbaijani 603,070 (0.44%)
Turks 105,058 (0.08%)
Turkmens 36,885 (0.03%)
Gagauz 13,690 (0.01%)
Meskhetian Turks 4,825 (0.00%)
Southeastern Turkic (Karluk) 293,558 (0.21%)
Uzbeks 289,862 (0.21%)
Uyghurs 3,696 (0.00%)
Mongolic 651,355 (0.47%)
Buryats 461,389 (0.34%)
Kalmyks 183,372 (0.13%)
Soyots 3,608 (0.00%)
Khalkha Mongols 2,986 (0.00%)
Caucasian 5,194,015 (3.78%)
Northeast Caucasian 4,262,817 (3.11%)
Chechens 1,431,360 (1.04%)
Avars 912,090 (0.66%)
Dargins 589,386 (0.43%)
Lezgins 473,722 (0.35%)
Ingush 444,833 (0.32%)
Laks 178,630 (0.13%)
Tabasarans 146,360 (0.11%)
Rutuls 35,240 (0.03%)
Aguls 34,160 (0.02%)
Tsakhurs 12,769 (0.01%)
Udis 4,267 (0.00%)
Northwest Caucasian 773,317 (0.56%)
Kabardians 516,826 (0.38%)
Adyghe 124,835 (0.09%)
Cherkess 73,184 (0.05%)
Abazas 43,341 (0.03%)
Abkhaz 11,249 (0.01%)
Shapsugs 3,882 (0.00%)
Kartvelian 157,881 (0.12%)
Georgians 157,803 (0.11%)
Georgian Jews 78 (0.00%)
Uralic 2,371,398 (1.73%)
Permic 877,191 (0.64%)
Udmurts 552,299 (0.40%)
Komi 228,235 (0.17%)
Komi-Permyak 94,456 (0.07%)
Besermyan 2,201 (0.00%)
Mordvins 744,237 (0.54%)
Mari 547,605 (0.40%)
Baltic Finnic 105,223 (0.06%)
Karelians 60,815 (0.04%)
Finns 20,267 (0.01%)
Estonians 17,875 (0.01%)
Veps 5,936 (0.00%)
Izhorians 266 (0.00%)
Votes 64 (0.00%)
Samoyedic 49,378 (0.04%)
Nenets 44,640 (0.03%)
Selkups 3,649 (0.00%)
Nganasans 862 (0.00%)
Enets 227 (0.00%)
Khanty 30,943 (0.02%)
Mansi 12,269 (0.01%)
Hungarians 2,781 (0.00%)
Sami 1,771 (0.00%)

Just off the top of my head, of course

Fascinating.

Equally fascinating is seeing that the Russian method of statistics is similar to the Russian method of counting votes in elections, with that lot adding up to 380%

Was it Stalin who said - It's not who votes in an election that matters, but who counts the votes.

[Stones of granite]

So, returning to the OP after being diverted by more of Rowan's brainfarting, the main problem with a lack of democracy is access to information. China has for years restricted its citizens access to the internet, and Russia is in the process of installing their own "great firewall". The tightening grip that Erdogan has in Turkey will also likely lead to more restrictions on internet access there. Once the population has their access to information restricted, there is no way back.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-firewall

[rowan]

The tightening grip that Erdogan has in Turkey will also likely lead to more restrictions on internet access there. Once the population has their access to information restricted, there is no way back.

Pure genius. What profound insight! You must have read at least three headlines about Turkey to have become such an expert on this country.

[Stones of granite]

The tightening grip that Erdogan has in Turkey will also likely lead to more restrictions on internet access there. Once the population has their access to information restricted, there is no way back.

Pure genius. What profound insight! You must have read at least three headlines about Turkey to have become such an expert on this country.

Have you actually got anything to say, or are you just going to keep on playing the man?

[Stones of granite]

Thought not. An empty vessel makes the loudest noise.

[morepork]

Are entities like Google and FaceFuk complicit in the restriction of access to information, or even the dissemination of disinformation in these sorts of scenarios?

I don't much like the power wielded by grown boys that wear T-shirts to work.

[Digby]

So, returning to the OP after being diverted by more of Rowan's brainfarting, the main problem with a lack of democracy is access to information. China has for years restricted its citizens access to the internet, and Russia is in the process of installing their own "great firewall". The tightening grip that Erdogan has in Turkey will also likely lead to more restrictions on internet access there. Once the population has their access to information restricted, there is no way back.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-firewall

Against which there's never been more free material in Russia and China, and it's hard to see other than the cat's out of the bag now. What if anything comes of that who knows.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Are entities like Google and FaceFuk complicit in the restriction of access to information, or even the dissemination of disinformation in these sorts of scenarios?

I don't much like the power wielded by grown boys that wear T-shirts to work.

They wield immense power. As to exactly how they wield it only those who know how the algorithm actually works know.

[kk67]

The problem with this, and much more generally, is that people seem to have forgotten that "democracy" is only one side of the coin in modern "free" countries. The other is the respect for certain inalienable human rights regardless of the view of the majority. The former without the latter leaves minorities (even large ones) vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority.

The content and method of recognition of the inalienable rights might vary, but without them a "democracy" is not necessarily free.

It's probably an open question whether a dictatorship with the rule of law and human rights is preferable to a democracy without those safeguards.

It's an open question,......for everyone but the Lawyers who will make a profit.

[rowan]

The tightening grip that Erdogan has in Turkey will also likely lead to more restrictions on internet access there. Once the population has their access to information restricted, there is no way back.

Pure genius. What profound insight! You must have read at least three headlines about Turkey to have become such an expert on this country.

Have you actually got anything to say, or are you just going to keep on playing the man?

Plenty to say about Turkey. I know exactly what's going on here because I read the newspapers and watch the TV news - in Turkish. But it has already been made clear on another thread that you have no interest in that, and are rather more disposed toward "playing the man" yourself and posting what you've deduced from a few headlines from the British propaganda agency...

[Digby]

The tightening grip that Erdogan has in Turkey will also likely lead to more restrictions on internet access there. Once the population has their access to information restricted, there is no way back.

Pure genius. What profound insight! You must have read at least three headlines about Turkey to have become such an expert on this country.

Have you actually got anything to say, or are you just going to keep on playing the man?

Plenty to say about Turkey. I know exactly what's going on here because I read the newspapers and watch the TV news - in Turkish. But it has already been made clear on another thread that you have no interest in that, and are rather more disposed toward "playing the man" yourself and posting what you've deduced from a few headlines from the British propaganda agency...

I don't know what newsites you actually watch in English, but certainly those you tend to link on here are articles for and by loons, if you're doing similar in Turkey what does it matter that you're getting coverage in Turkish? It'd still be drivel.