Trump

[rowan]

Is all this "ISIS is/isn't real" talk particularly relevant for a thread on Donald Trump?

It's not like it's not beeing gone into before... repeatedly.

The guy who claims he's going to 'wipe them out,' you mean?

[Sandydragon]

Inspired, yes, but by American wars which are destroying their countries, and by racial oppression and ridicule of their religion in the countries they have escaped too.

People here don't believe ISIS is attacking them. They're not that naive.

Evidence? Who's the publicity officer at ISIS HQ then?

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

Finally, why shouldn't religion be ridiculed? A free society allows a wide range of commentary, taking the piss out of religion is one of those freedoms and provided there isn't an incitement to attack members of a religion )or none) then there isn't a problem. Time to grow up and not live in the 14th century.

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

I might actually agree with some of your comments on religion, but what we think is completely besides the point. We're not living in the ghettoes of Marseilles as a result of France's colonial wars and dictatorships it continues to support in the region. & we don't have to go out into the streets and face racial oppression every day either. Otherwise we might be a tad more sensitive when a popular weekly publication savagely ridicules and demonizes our deities, leaders and brethren as well. It's known as the Principle of Causality.

In Iran, I would agree with you. In this country, or France for that matter, it is precisely the point. What level of freedom of expression is tolerated in a modern western country? A ban on mocking Islam whilst allowing open season on other religions just because some offended people might resort to violence is the wrong approach.

As for being condescending. Seriously? If you are suggesting that ISIS are a myth then you are losing touch with facts and reality. They might get blamed for stuff they didn't do, but to claim they dont exist and dont try to recruit and radicalise muslims in Western Europe is completely at odds with all the available evidence.

And yes this conversation in in danger of going off topic.

[rowan]

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

Finally, why shouldn't religion be ridiculed? A free society allows a wide range of commentary, taking the piss out of religion is one of those freedoms and provided there isn't an incitement to attack members of a religion )or none) then there isn't a problem. Time to grow up and not live in the 14th century.

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

I might actually agree with some of your comments on religion, but what we think is completely besides the point. We're not living in the ghettoes of Marseilles as a result of France's colonial wars and dictatorships it continues to support in the region. & we don't have to go out into the streets and face racial oppression every day either. Otherwise we might be a tad more sensitive when a popular weekly publication savagely ridicules and demonizes our deities, leaders and brethren as well. It's known as the Principle of Causality.

In Iran, I would agree with you. In this country, or France for that matter, it is precisely the point. What level of freedom of expression is tolerated in a modern western country? A ban on mocking Islam whilst allowing open season on other religions just because some offended people might resort to violence is the wrong approach.

As for being condescending. Seriously? If you are suggesting that ISIS are a myth then you are losing touch with facts and reality. They might get blamed for stuff they didn't do, but to claim they dont exist and dont try to recruit and radicalise muslims in Western Europe is completely at odds with all the available evidence.

And yes this conversation in in danger of going off topic.

So Islamophobia is also a myth then? That's basically what we're talking about, the ongoing demonization of a religion and its comunity at a time when mostly Christian nations are waging war on Muslim nations. It needs to be viewed in this context.

There is no organization that refers to itself as ISIS, no. That's why the media started using the Arabic acronym 'Daesh,' but even they don't claim the terrorists this is applied to are using it themselves.

What it amounts to is the re-branding of Al Qaeda, a blanket term meaning 'the base' (or 'the toilet' in Arabic slang), that was applied arbitrarily to mercenaries and Saudi-backed Jihadist warriors involved in the conflicts America has created across the Middle East. This is designed to smokescreen Washington's imperialist designs on the region, along with the role of staunched ally Saudi itself.

&, again, what possible motive could ISIS have for attacking Sunni-Islam majority Turkey? The Jihadists are fighting for Sunni Islamic ascendancy. There hasn't even been a claim of responsibility reported for most of them.

[Len]

ISIS may not have much organisation in Europe, but their tactic is to inspire lone wolf attacks. Plenty of evidence for that.

Inspired, yes, but by American wars which are destroying their countries, and by racial oppression and ridicule of their religion in the countries they have escaped too.

People here don't believe ISIS is attacking them. They're not that naive.

Evidence? Who's the publicity officer at ISIS HQ then?

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

Finally, why shouldn't religion be ridiculed? A free society allows a wide range of commentary, taking the piss out of religion is one of those freedoms and provided there isn't an incitement to attack members of a religion )or none) then there isn't a problem. Time to grow up and not live in the 14th century.

Ridicule: Hates ugly cousin.

[Sandydragon]

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

I might actually agree with some of your comments on religion, but what we think is completely besides the point. We're not living in the ghettoes of Marseilles as a result of France's colonial wars and dictatorships it continues to support in the region. & we don't have to go out into the streets and face racial oppression every day either. Otherwise we might be a tad more sensitive when a popular weekly publication savagely ridicules and demonizes our deities, leaders and brethren as well. It's known as the Principle of Causality.

In Iran, I would agree with you. In this country, or France for that matter, it is precisely the point. What level of freedom of expression is tolerated in a modern western country? A ban on mocking Islam whilst allowing open season on other religions just because some offended people might resort to violence is the wrong approach.

As for being condescending. Seriously? If you are suggesting that ISIS are a myth then you are losing touch with facts and reality. They might get blamed for stuff they didn't do, but to claim they dont exist and dont try to recruit and radicalise muslims in Western Europe is completely at odds with all the available evidence.

And yes this conversation in in danger of going off topic.

So Islamophobia is also a myth then? That's basically what we're talking about, the ongoing demonization of a religion and its comunity at a time when mostly Christian nations are waging war on Muslim nations. It needs to be viewed in this context.

There is no organization that refers to itself as ISIS, no. That's why the media started using the Arabic acronym 'Daesh,' but even they don't claim the terrorists this is applied to are using it themselves.

What it amounts to is the re-branding of Al Qaeda, a blanket term meaning 'the base' (or 'the toilet' in Arabic slang), that was applied arbitrarily to mercenaries and Saudi-backed Jihadist warriors involved in the conflicts America has created across the Middle East. This is designed to smokescreen Washington's imperialist designs on the region, along with the role of staunched ally Saudi itself.

&, again, what possible motive could ISIS have for attacking Sunni-Islam majority Turkey? The Jihadists are fighting for Sunni Islamic ascendancy. There hasn't even been a claim of responsibility reported for most of them.

No we are not. We are talking about reality. Islamophobia aside (and who knows how much that is an influence in Trump's administration) there is a clear threat from Islamic fundamentalism, as witnesses on numerous occasions just in Europe. ISIS does exist and is trying to recruit or influence via social media.

Trump's response to the problem is bone headed and likely to cause greater problems. But denying that none of this exists is just total ignorance of the facts. This isn't just a conversation about Turkey, there is plenty of evidence for ISIS inspiration in the rest of Europe.

[Sandydragon]

Inspired, yes, but by American wars which are destroying their countries, and by racial oppression and ridicule of their religion in the countries they have escaped too.

People here don't believe ISIS is attacking them. They're not that naive.

Evidence? Who's the publicity officer at ISIS HQ then?

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

Finally, why shouldn't religion be ridiculed? A free society allows a wide range of commentary, taking the piss out of religion is one of those freedoms and provided there isn't an incitement to attack members of a religion )or none) then there isn't a problem. Time to grow up and not live in the 14th century.

Ridicule: Hates ugly cousin.

Denial. Not just a river in Egypt.

[WaspInWales]

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

Finally, why shouldn't religion be ridiculed? A free society allows a wide range of commentary, taking the piss out of religion is one of those freedoms and provided there isn't an incitement to attack members of a religion )or none) then there isn't a problem. Time to grow up and not live in the 14th century.

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

I might actually agree with some of your comments on religion, but what we think is completely besides the point. We're not living in the ghettoes of Marseilles as a result of France's colonial wars and dictatorships it continues to support in the region. & we don't have to go out into the streets and face racial oppression every day either. Otherwise we might be a tad more sensitive when a popular weekly publication savagely ridicules and demonizes our deities, leaders and brethren as well. It's known as the Principle of Causality.

In Iran, I would agree with you. In this country, or France for that matter, it is precisely the point. What level of freedom of expression is tolerated in a modern western country? A ban on mocking Islam whilst allowing open season on other religions just because some offended people might resort to violence is the wrong approach.

As for being condescending. Seriously? If you are suggesting that ISIS are a myth then you are losing touch with facts and reality. They might get blamed for stuff they didn't do, but to claim they dont exist and dont try to recruit and radicalise muslims in Western Europe is completely at odds with all the available evidence.

And yes this conversation in in danger of going off topic.

It's a long held belief of alt-news supporters. I think it came to prominence thanks to RT propaganda which has been shared on all the anti-west websites. There's a good chance that most people who call the US, Britain etc, etc terrorists will likely share this view.

I do have some doubts on ISIS myself. I do think they're real but what bothers me is that after some random attack takes place, the media wastes no time to tell us that IS have claimed they carried out the attack. Oh, really? Where's the proof of this then? We've occasionally seen videos where people have pledged loyalty to ISIS before doing something...that's reasonable proof for me but it's all the other instances when we're told IS have said it was them without offering any proof.

To me, this is about as believable as the some journalists making bold claims that ISIS doesn't exist and then some people accepting that as gospel because it fits with their view. Same with 'former' CIA agents and other ex-government employees who make shocking claims that the US staged all manner of bollocks. Where's the veracity in some of these claims? Here we have some apparent source, who lets face it, may not even exist (just like the sources that some western journalists use), making claims that support anti-west points of view and some swallow it without thinking.

I personally think both MSM and alt-news should be doing more to back up claims and question what they're being fed. They're both as bad as eachother.

Before anyone points out that MSM are held to account, well that's not entirely true in all circumstances. When they print bullshit about celebs and others that turn out to be false, they're happy to pay up and post an apology but most MSM just regurgitate what the government tells them to. I appreciate the occasional opinion piece offers an alternative view but that's all it is...an opinion from a journalist. The paper or news channel should be doing more to confirm, challenge and counter information from above.

[rowan]

In Iran, I would agree with you. In this country, or France for that matter, it is precisely the point. What level of freedom of expression is tolerated in a modern western country? A ban on mocking Islam whilst allowing open season on other religions just because some offended people might resort to violence is the wrong approach.

As for being condescending. Seriously? If you are suggesting that ISIS are a myth then you are losing touch with facts and reality. They might get blamed for stuff they didn't do, but to claim they dont exist and dont try to recruit and radicalise muslims in Western Europe is completely at odds with all the available evidence.

And yes this conversation in in danger of going off topic.

So Islamophobia is also a myth then? That's basically what we're talking about, the ongoing demonization of a religion and its comunity at a time when mostly Christian nations are waging war on Muslim nations. It needs to be viewed in this context.

There is no organization that refers to itself as ISIS, no. That's why the media started using the Arabic acronym 'Daesh,' but even they don't claim the terrorists this is applied to are using it themselves.

What it amounts to is the re-branding of Al Qaeda, a blanket term meaning 'the base' (or 'the toilet' in Arabic slang), that was applied arbitrarily to mercenaries and Saudi-backed Jihadist warriors involved in the conflicts America has created across the Middle East. This is designed to smokescreen Washington's imperialist designs on the region, along with the role of staunched ally Saudi itself.

&, again, what possible motive could ISIS have for attacking Sunni-Islam majority Turkey? The Jihadists are fighting for Sunni Islamic ascendancy. There hasn't even been a claim of responsibility reported for most of them.

No we are not. We are talking about reality. Islamophobia aside (and who knows how much that is an influence in Trump's administration) there is a clear threat from Islamic fundamentalism, as witnesses on numerous occasions just in Europe. ISIS does exist and is trying to recruit or influence via social media.

Trump's response to the problem is bone headed and likely to cause greater problems. But denying that none of this exists is just total ignorance of the facts. This isn't just a conversation about Turkey, there is plenty of evidence for ISIS inspiration in the rest of Europe.

Sure, the fundamentalism has emerged out of Islamophobia, which you've just dismissed as a factor.

I'm not denying any of this exists. There are certainly Saudi-backed Jihadists and NATO-backed mercenaries involved in this, and they have undoubtedly formed into various factions with a leadership hierarchy. All I'm suggesting is that there is no major terrorist organization, calling itself ISIS or Daesh or anything else, which plans and executes attacks of diverse descriptions all over the world, using lone wolves or small groups of individuals from a wide variety of locations and backgrounds. And neither are rebel groups fighting against American imperialism, or those fighting for control over territories where the leadership has been removed or destroyed, doing so under the 'ISIS/Daesh' umbrella either.

[canta_brian]

Inspired, yes, but by American wars which are destroying their countries, and by racial oppression and ridicule of their religion in the countries they have escaped too.

People here don't believe ISIS is attacking them. They're not that naive.

Evidence? Who's the publicity officer at ISIS HQ then?

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

Finally, why shouldn't religion be ridiculed? A free society allows a wide range of commentary, taking the piss out of religion is one of those freedoms and provided there isn't an incitement to attack members of a religion )or none) then there isn't a problem. Time to grow up and not live in the 14th century.

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

I might actually agree with some of your comments on religion, but what we think is completely besides the point. We're not living in the ghettoes of Marseilles as a result of France's colonial wars and dictatorships it continues to support in the region. & we don't have to go out into the streets and face racial oppression every day either. Otherwise we might be a tad more sensitive when a popular weekly publication savagely ridicules and demonizes our deities, leaders and brethren as well. It's known as the Principle of Causality.

Please stop giving your opinions on western European and US media and propaganda. You don't live in the region therefore you can not possibly hold a valid point of view.

[rowan]

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

Finally, why shouldn't religion be ridiculed? A free society allows a wide range of commentary, taking the piss out of religion is one of those freedoms and provided there isn't an incitement to attack members of a religion )or none) then there isn't a problem. Time to grow up and not live in the 14th century.

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

I might actually agree with some of your comments on religion, but what we think is completely besides the point. We're not living in the ghettoes of Marseilles as a result of France's colonial wars and dictatorships it continues to support in the region. & we don't have to go out into the streets and face racial oppression every day either. Otherwise we might be a tad more sensitive when a popular weekly publication savagely ridicules and demonizes our deities, leaders and brethren as well. It's known as the Principle of Causality.

Please stop giving your opinions on western European and US media and propaganda. You don't live in the region therefore you can not possibly hold a valid point of view.

But I am a Westerner with a European passport and an American university education, and I'm also a trained journalist who reads your news in English via the internet every single day.

So let me ask you, are you a Middle Easterner with a Middle Eastern passport and university education, and are you a trained journalist who reads the news in a Middle Eastern language (as I also do) via the internet or otherwise every day?

If the answer to this question is 'no,' then you have just revealed yourself as a gigantic hypocrite

Or in other words, you're out of arguments

[canta_brian]

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

I might actually agree with some of your comments on religion, but what we think is completely besides the point. We're not living in the ghettoes of Marseilles as a result of France's colonial wars and dictatorships it continues to support in the region. & we don't have to go out into the streets and face racial oppression every day either. Otherwise we might be a tad more sensitive when a popular weekly publication savagely ridicules and demonizes our deities, leaders and brethren as well. It's known as the Principle of Causality.

Please stop giving your opinions on western European and US media and propaganda. You don't live in the region therefore you can not possibly hold a valid point of view.

But I am a Westerner with a European passport and an American university education, and I'm also a trained journalist who reads your news in English via the internet every single day.

So let me ask you, are you a Middle Easterner with a Middle Eastern passport and university education, and are you a trained journalist who reads the news in a Middle Eastern language (as I also do) via the internet or otherwise everyday?

If the answer to this question is 'no, then you have just revealed yourself as a gigantic hypocrite

Ooo. I'm so hurt.

I don't often comment on any middle eastern issues. I do however comment when I see examples of hypocrisy, and only then when the are glaring and pretty much constant.

I fully expect your standard response of a multi paragraph rant that can be boiled down to "I know you are what what am I", but fill your boots. Oh, and use all the bold text and all the emoticons you fancy.

[morepork]

Is all this "ISIS is/isn't real" talk particularly relevant for a thread on Donald Trump?

It's not like it's not beeing gone into before... repeatedly.

The guy who claims he's going to 'wipe them out,' you mean?

Why are you picking fights? Most people on here broadly agree with you, but you seem determined to ram redundant detail down everyones throat, like a mastaerbating baboon.

[Sandydragon]

So Islamophobia is also a myth then? That's basically what we're talking about, the ongoing demonization of a religion and its comunity at a time when mostly Christian nations are waging war on Muslim nations. It needs to be viewed in this context.

There is no organization that refers to itself as ISIS, no. That's why the media started using the Arabic acronym 'Daesh,' but even they don't claim the terrorists this is applied to are using it themselves.

What it amounts to is the re-branding of Al Qaeda, a blanket term meaning 'the base' (or 'the toilet' in Arabic slang), that was applied arbitrarily to mercenaries and Saudi-backed Jihadist warriors involved in the conflicts America has created across the Middle East. This is designed to smokescreen Washington's imperialist designs on the region, along with the role of staunched ally Saudi itself.

&, again, what possible motive could ISIS have for attacking Sunni-Islam majority Turkey? The Jihadists are fighting for Sunni Islamic ascendancy. There hasn't even been a claim of responsibility reported for most of them.

No we are not. We are talking about reality. Islamophobia aside (and who knows how much that is an influence in Trump's administration) there is a clear threat from Islamic fundamentalism, as witnesses on numerous occasions just in Europe. ISIS does exist and is trying to recruit or influence via social media.

Trump's response to the problem is bone headed and likely to cause greater problems. But denying that none of this exists is just total ignorance of the facts. This isn't just a conversation about Turkey, there is plenty of evidence for ISIS inspiration in the rest of Europe.

Sure, the fundamentalism has emerged out of Islamophobia, which you've just dismissed as a factor.

I'm not denying any of this exists. There are certainly Saudi-backed Jihadists and NATO-backed mercenaries involved in this, and they have undoubtedly formed into various factions with a leadership hierarchy. All I'm suggesting is that there is no major terrorist organization, calling itself ISIS or Daesh or anything else, which plans and executes attacks of diverse descriptions all over the world, using lone wolves or small groups of individuals from a wide variety of locations and backgrounds. And neither are rebel groups fighting against American imperialism, or those fighting for control over territories where the leadership has been removed or destroyed, doing so under the 'ISIS/Daesh' umbrella either.

'Im not denying anything exists which suits my world view of Nato being responsible for everything'. I think you need to see past your own propaganda.

[Digby]

Is all this "ISIS is/isn't real" talk particularly relevant for a thread on Donald Trump?

It's not like it's not beeing gone into before... repeatedly.

The guy who claims he's going to 'wipe them out,' you mean?

Why are you picking fights? Most people on here broadly agree with you, but you seem determined to ram redundant detail down everyones throat, like a mastaerbating baboon.

I'd go out on a limb and suggest most people on the board don't agree with Rowan, broadly or otherwise. Whether on ISIS, Trump, Syria, the size of Ireland...

[rowan]

I don't often comment on any middle eastern issues blah blah.

Doesn't stop you butting into such discussions, however.

So who's the hypocrite here?

Why are you picking fights? Most people on here broadly agree with you

Is the below comment (from Sandy) picking a fight or broadly agreeing . . .

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

My response was . .

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

So who's the hypocrite here?


I'd go out on a limb and suggest most people on the board don't agree with Rowan

I'd go out on a limb and suggest most people in the Middle East would. That's because I live here, talk to the locals every day, speaking their language and read the local press. So you think ISIS has been attacking Sunni majority Turkey when they have a pro-Sunni agenda? If you came here and spouted that nonsense you'd been laughed out of town.

So who's the hypocrite here?

Anyway, a lot of diversion tactics going on here, so I suggest we get back to the discussion. The point I originally made, that got everybody so angrified, was simply that the terrorist attacks in Europe and North America are not being carried out by ISIS-affiliated/trained/inspired operatives from a multitude of different countries (often born in the one they attack, in fact) by such basic methods as driving trucks into crowds, attacking people with machetes and the standard American technique of simply gunning 'em down.

They are being carried out by individuals and small groups of individuals radicalized by the West's bombing and destruction of a vast swathe of the Middle East - leading to millions of deaths, the destruction of entire nations, and a refugee tidal wave into Europe. The problem that you have with this vastly more plausible explanation is that it involves accountability on the part of the West.

The convenience of applying tags to the Jihadists and mercenaries, as if they were pop groups or football teams, is that it provides a pretext for NATO intevention anywhere they like. We've just had the US, Britain, France and Turkey all bombing within Syria's borders - without an invite from Damascus and therefore illegally - under the pretext of 'fighting ISIS. Guess what, theyre 'fighting ISIS' in Iraq too, and also in Libya where the battle continues to fill the void left by Gaddafi's murder. Yes, they're bombing all these countries to liberate them from 'ISIS' and keeping us safe, not to remove unco-operative leaders and gain control of their natural resources. That millions are killed in the process is a shame, but you can blame Putin for that...

[Mellsblue]

I thought we had all agreed WiW is the hypocrite here.

[morepork]

So who's the hypocrite here?





So who's the hypocrite here?

I never get tired of this phrase. The rolly-eyes thing just makes it more poignant.

[WaspInWales]

I thought we had all agreed WiW is the hypocrite here.

Fake news!

[Which Tyler]

Anyone know what Trump's been up to today? Anyone care?

[morepork]

Anyone know what Trump's been up to today? Anyone care?

Just making an oafish thundercunt of himself explaining the finer points of the legal system which is challenging him:

“It’s sad, I think it’s a sad day. I think our security is at risk today. And it will be at risk until such time as we are entitled and get what we are entitled to as citizens of this country,” Trump said. “It was done for the security of our nation. The security of our citizens. So that people come in who aren’t going to do us harm. And that’s why it was done. And it couldn’t have been written any more precisely. It’s not like, ‘Oh gee, we wish it were written better.’ It’s written beautifully.”

“You could be a lawyer, or you don’t have to be a lawyer. If you were a good student in high school or a bad student in high school, you can understand this, and it’s really incredible to me that we have a court case that’s going on so long,” Trump told his audience. “I was a good student. I understand things. I comprehend very well, OK? Better than, I think, almost anybody. And I want to tell you, I listened to a bunch of stuff last night on television that was disgraceful. It was disgraceful because what I just read to you is what we have. And it just can’t be written any plainer or better and for us to be going through this.”

Apologies for the technical legal language, but when you comprehend better than almost anybody, then, gee, you are entitled.


What a total fuckwit.

[WaspInWales]

Anyone know what Trump's been up to today? Anyone care?

He has been busy being the greatest president ever.

His duties today have included tweeting that 16 fake news stories on him have been published since he became the greatest president ever.

He has tweeted his disapproval of the way Nordstrom treated his daughter. The daughter of the greatest president ever.

He tweeted his thanks to the police chiefs and sheriffs and tells them they have a friend in the White House. It's a shame the greatest president ever doesn't feel the same way about judges.

He has also tweeted his frustration that the US will never have the security and safety to which they're entitled if he doesn't win the court case....but he so obviously should win as he's the greatest president ever.

Not an easy job being the greatest president ever.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Donny osmond]

Back the frickin truck up...

An organisation cannot be considered to exist if we cant name its press officer?

Oh

This had me pretty excited until I googled HMRC press officer and found out that organisation does in fact exist.

[canta_brian]

I don't often comment on any middle eastern issues blah blah.

Doesn't stop you butting into such discussions, however.

So who's the hypocrite here?

Why are you picking fights? Most people on here broadly agree with you

Is the below comment (from Sandy) picking a fight or broadly agreeing . . .

Do some research into the attacks and see how the attackers were radicalised and inspired. ISIS makes heavy use of social media for this purpose. And for the record, mic of the media here talks about ISIS inspired rather than organised attacks.

My response was . .

Again the condescencion. I live in the region and read the press in the local language. Do some research yourself. Talking to me about ISIS, you might as well be talking about Santa. It's absurd to think they are responsible for every mass murder by a Muslim abroad when the West has been bombing 7 Muslim countries for the past 8 years under Obama. The propaganda industry labels them ISIS-inspired - which means exactly diddly-squat. The bombing and destruction of their homelands is all the inspiration they need, evidently.

So who's the hypocrite here?


I'd go out on a limb and suggest most people on the board don't agree with Rowan

I'd go out on a limb and suggest most people in the Middle East would. That's because I live here, talk to the locals every day, speaking their language and read the local press. So you think ISIS has been attacking Sunni majority Turkey when they have a pro-Sunni agenda? If you came here and spouted that nonsense you'd been laughed out of town.

So who's the hypocrite here?

Anyway, a lot of diversion tactics going on here, so I suggest we get back to the discussion. The point I originally made, that got everybody so angrified, was simply that the terrorist attacks in Europe and North America are not being carried out by ISIS-affiliated/trained/inspired operatives from a multitude of different countries (often born in the one they attack, in fact) by such basic methods as driving trucks into crowds, attacking people with machetes and the standard American technique of simply gunning 'em down.

They are being carried out by individuals and small groups of individuals radicalized by the West's bombing and destruction of a vast swathe of the Middle East - leading to millions of deaths, the destruction of entire nations, and a refugee tidal wave into Europe. The problem that you have with this vastly more plausible explanation is that it involves accountability on the part of the West.

The convenience of applying tags to the Jihadists and mercenaries, as if they were pop groups or football teams, is that it provides a pretext for NATO intevention anywhere they like. We've just had the US, Britain, France and Turkey all bombing within Syria's borders - without an invite from Damascus and therefore illegally - under the pretext of 'fighting ISIS. Guess what, theyre 'fighting ISIS' in Iraq too, and also in Libya where the battle continues to fill the void left by Gaddafi's murder. Yes, they're bombing all these countries to liberate them from 'ISIS' and keeping us safe, not to remove unco-operative leaders and gain control of their natural resources. That millions are killed in the process is a shame, but you can blame Putin for that...

2 things.

1). Do you actually know what hypocrite means?

2). Amnesty international. You have spent 2 days trying to either ignore the report on Assad's regime killing political opponents or to discredit amnesty international.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ys-amnesty

Your last paragraph above seems to suggest that nato interventions in Syria are illegal without Assad's invitation. I would think that anyone interested in the plight of the Syrian people might be interested in the reported murder or 13000 of them. You only seem to care if the blame can be pinned on the west.

Please refer to point 1.

[Digby]

Back the frickin truck up...

An organisation cannot be considered to exist if we cant name its press officer?

where else would a trained journalist verify their ramblings?

[Digby]

I'd go out on a limb and suggest most people in the Middle East would. That's because I live here, talk to the locals every day, speaking their language and read the local press. So you think ISIS has been attacking Sunni majority Turkey when they have a pro-Sunni agenda? If you came here and spouted that nonsense you'd been laughed out of town.

So who's the hypocrite here?

That's quite a specific point you're choosing to contest about ISIS attacking Turkey, I'm not off the top of my sold I'll have ever made the point you're countering either. For what it's worth I don't think the people of the Middle East will speak with one voice, so some will agree with you and some not, and there are a lot of problems in the Middle East even before the actions of the west are considered, or put another way of the west vanished tomorrow it wouldn't mean peace in the Middle East as they're fighting for lots of reason only some of which are actions or perceived actions of the west.