Lions

[switchskier]

I'd be pretty good with that but Young's out for Davies and Halfpenny for Watson. Possibly also AWJ for Kruis or Gray but less sure.

[Mellsblue]

Why take 3 no8 when Stander and SOB can play there. Having said that, I'd not take SOB based on this 6N and I'd not take Stander as he's neither British nor Irish.
Hartley shouldn't go. Don't care who replaces him.
J Davies shouldn't go. I'd have all of the other home nations' OC's ahead of him.

If we're picking as if Gatland then Russell stands no chance of being ahead of Biggar. He'd also see Farrell as nothing else other than a FH. Jamie Roberts it is. I'm sure he'd also have Warburton over Tipuric.

Oh for VC to be head coach. Oh for the SRU to have made their decision earlier. Now that he's off to the Bank of Montpellier he'd be perfect.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I had a quick look on 606

When this place swept out the dross even they didnt go to 606.

Honestly quotes so far

Itoje for captain
Farrel for 13 and Ringrose at 12
Ford ahead of Russel for 10 (never mind Ford cant tackle wont tackle)
haskell is leading contender for 7 because he is an out and out 7
Bigger threw AWJ and then 1/2p undr the bus FACT


Mental,

Ford is a pretty decent tackler on the whole. I've certainly never seen him shirk. There is a perfectly good argument to be had about whether he goes rather than Russell, which certainly isn't as absurd as any of the other things on there.

If by tackle you mean be brave enough to stand there as he gets flattened then yes, I actually quite Ford as a 10 but even with Farrel at 12 the English backs are not getting any decent ball

Owen Farrell that well known provider of brilliant ball to those outside him?

Finn Russell is hardly a dynamic tackler. Ford isn't a great tackler but nor is he a liability and to pretend otherwise is misguided.

[Mikey Brown]

Russell's defence is weirdly overlooked. He's been great in the 3 games so far. He is comfortably better than Ford in defence and more consistent than Farrell. Not that this is me stating he will go on tour.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Why take 3 no8 when Stander and SOB can play there. Having said that, I'd not take SOB based on this 6N and I'd not take Stander as he's neither British nor Irish.
Hartley shouldn't go. Don't care who replaces him.
J Davies shouldn't go. I'd have all of the other home nations' OC's ahead of him.

If we're picking as if Gatland then Russell stands no chance of being ahead of Biggar. He'd also see Farrell as nothing else other than a FH. Jamie Roberts it is. I'm sure he'd also have Warburton over Tipuric.

Oh for VC to be head coach. Oh for the SRU to have made their decision earlier. Now that he's off to the Bank of Montpellier he'd be perfect.

Absolutely no point in taking 3 8s as I said earlier in this thread.

I'd not take Billy V based on this 6N either.

Stander's one of ours now. He's eligible and never been less than whole hearted in everything he's done for Munster or Ireland. There are Irish imports I'm squeamish about. He's not one of them.

[whatisthejava]

Ford is a pretty decent tackler on the whole. I've certainly never seen him shirk. There is a perfectly good argument to be had about whether he goes rather than Russell, which certainly isn't as absurd as any of the other things on there.

If by tackle you mean be brave enough to stand there as he gets flattened then yes, I actually quite Ford as a 10 but even with Farrel at 12 the English backs are not getting any decent ball

Owen Farrell that well known provider of brilliant ball to those outside him?

Finn Russell is hardly a dynamic tackler. Ford isn't a great tackler but nor is he a liability and to pretend otherwise is misguided.

I don't think Finn will go unless Gatland wants to use the lions to try something completely different. He can clearly see that gatball doesn't work but I don't think he knows another way.

Ford is costing England a lot of yards when he gets ran straight at and against Ireland and Scotland hiding out on the wings isn't the answer as both teams are happy to attack out wide.

Russel is better in defense then Ford arguing otherwise is nonsense. I like Ford and think he is a good solid 10 but he isn't a tackler and I'm not sure why Farrel isn't given the 10 shirt.

[Spiffy]

If by tackle you mean be brave enough to stand there as he gets flattened then yes, I actually quite Ford as a 10 but even with Farrel at 12 the English backs are not getting any decent ball

Owen Farrell that well known provider of brilliant ball to those outside him?

Finn Russell is hardly a dynamic tackler. Ford isn't a great tackler but nor is he a liability and to pretend otherwise is misguided.

I don't think Finn will go unless Gatland wants to use the lions to try something completely different. He can clearly see that gatball doesn't work but I don't think he knows another way.

Ford is costing England a lot of yards when he gets ran straight at and against Ireland and Scotland hiding out on the wings isn't the answer as both teams are happy to attack out wide.

Russel is better in defense then Ford arguing otherwise is nonsense. I like Ford and think he is a good solid 10 but he isn't a tackler and I'm not sure why Farrel isn't given the 10 shirt.

I think Ford has the reputation of being a weak defender because he's on the small side. If you watch his games carefully, he is not bad at all. He generally manages to pull down his man, though his tackles are not showy or pile drivers. He will miss one now and again, just like anyone else. On the other hand, if you watch Farrell carefully, he is not nearly as good a defender as many make out. He makes the odd big hit but misses a lot through relatively poor technique. I don't think he is worth a starting spot on the Lions test team either at 10 or 12. When it comes to real midfield skills and gas, Farrell is quite overrated. His goalkicking has kept him in the public eye, but even that let him down last week, when he had an overall howler against Italy.
Re. Russell - his tackling this 6N has been good and he has been bossing the game better than Ford, Farrell or Biggar (the latter has few attacking attributes at all).
At the moment I'd have the Lions fly halves as Sexton, Jackson and Russell. But Gatland is as fooled as anyone by the Farrell myth and will probably take him as a FH, along with the ponderous Biggar and the excellent Sexton.

[ARM]

Yup, I don't expect Russell to tour unless we get a shock result at Twix and Russell plays like a Boss.

[Big D]

I've seen suggestions the squad will be 37. If that's the case then I think it will be Sexton, Farrell as a 10/12, +1.

[switchskier]

Owen Farrell that well known provider of brilliant ball to those outside him?

Finn Russell is hardly a dynamic tackler. Ford isn't a great tackler but nor is he a liability and to pretend otherwise is misguided.

I don't think Finn will go unless Gatland wants to use the lions to try something completely different. He can clearly see that gatball doesn't work but I don't think he knows another way.

Ford is costing England a lot of yards when he gets ran straight at and against Ireland and Scotland hiding out on the wings isn't the answer as both teams are happy to attack out wide.

Russel is better in defense then Ford arguing otherwise is nonsense. I like Ford and think he is a good solid 10 but he isn't a tackler and I'm not sure why Farrel isn't given the 10 shirt.

I think Ford has the reputation of being a weak defender because he's on the small side. If you watch his games carefully, he is not bad at all. He generally manages to pull down his man, though his tackles are not showy or pile drivers. He will miss one now and again, just like anyone else. On the other hand, if you watch Farrell carefully, he is not nearly as good a defender as many make out. He makes the odd big hit but misses a lot through relatively poor technique. I don't think he is worth a starting spot on the Lions test team either at 10 or 12. When it comes to real midfield skills and gas, Farrell is quite overrated. His goalkicking has kept him in the public eye, but even that let him down last week, when he had an overall howler against Italy.
Re. Russell - his tackling this 6N has been good and he has been bossing the game better than Ford, Farrell or Biggar (the latter has few attacking attributes at all).
At the moment I'd have the Lions fly halves as Sexton, Jackson and Russell. But Gatland is as fooled as anyone by the Farrell myth and will probably take him as a FH, along with the ponderous Biggar and the excellent Sexton.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this bit would add that Ford misses the odd one because he's targeted so much. I think that Ford is a fabulous player. My issue with him is that I feel he hasn't fulfilled his potential yet, I want to see him dominate games but rarely do. He could do with a little of Russell's cockiness.

[whatisthejava]

I'd agree with that Switch but I think even having a 10 that people will target means your backrow has 1 eye on protecting the 10 and not looking to be in the right place.

Either way Ford is either going to have his rep in place next Sunday or not. I expect the scots to throw everything down his channel

[whatisthejava]

Especially since we like attacking out wide and that's where he hides.

[Spiffy]

I don't think Finn will go unless Gatland wants to use the lions to try something completely different. He can clearly see that gatball doesn't work but I don't think he knows another way.

Ford is costing England a lot of yards when he gets ran straight at and against Ireland and Scotland hiding out on the wings isn't the answer as both teams are happy to attack out wide.

Russel is better in defense then Ford arguing otherwise is nonsense. I like Ford and think he is a good solid 10 but he isn't a tackler and I'm not sure why Farrel isn't given the 10 shirt.

I think Ford has the reputation of being a weak defender because he's on the small side. If you watch his games carefully, he is not bad at all. He generally manages to pull down his man, though his tackles are not showy or pile drivers. He will miss one now and again, just like anyone else. On the other hand, if you watch Farrell carefully, he is not nearly as good a defender as many make out. He makes the odd big hit but misses a lot through relatively poor technique. I don't think he is worth a starting spot on the Lions test team either at 10 or 12. When it comes to real midfield skills and gas, Farrell is quite overrated. His goalkicking has kept him in the public eye, but even that let him down last week, when he had an overall howler against Italy.
Re. Russell - his tackling this 6N has been good and he has been bossing the game better than Ford, Farrell or Biggar (the latter has few attacking attributes at all).
At the moment I'd have the Lions fly halves as Sexton, Jackson and Russell. But Gatland is as fooled as anyone by the Farrell myth and will probably take him as a FH, along with the ponderous Biggar and the excellent Sexton.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this bit would add that Ford misses the odd one because he's targeted so much. I think that Ford is a fabulous player. My issue with him is that I feel he hasn't fulfilled his potential yet, I want to see him dominate games but rarely do. He could do with a little of Russell's cockiness.

One of the reasons he does not dominate is that Eddie Jones has obviously designated him the junior partner and does not quite trust him. So Farrell does a lot of the stuff that a fly half normally does (goal kicking, restarts, line licking etc), even though Farrell does not do some of this (e.g. line licking) particularly well. This has to affect Ford's self confidence/authority to some extent, even if subconsciously. I'd like to see him play a few games in the absence of Farrell to get a chance to show how he can run the game. He is by far the better footballer.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

If by tackle you mean be brave enough to stand there as he gets flattened then yes, I actually quite Ford as a 10 but even with Farrel at 12 the English backs are not getting any decent ball

Owen Farrell that well known provider of brilliant ball to those outside him?

Finn Russell is hardly a dynamic tackler. Ford isn't a great tackler but nor is he a liability and to pretend otherwise is misguided.

I don't think Finn will go unless Gatland wants to use the lions to try something completely different. He can clearly see that gatball doesn't work but I don't think he knows another way.

Ford is costing England a lot of yards when he gets ran straight at and against Ireland and Scotland hiding out on the wings isn't the answer as both teams are happy to attack out wide.

Russel is better in defense then Ford arguing otherwise is nonsense. I like Ford and think he is a good solid 10 but he isn't a tackler and I'm not sure why Farrel isn't given the 10 shirt.

I've no issue with saing that Russell's defence is better than Ford's. I don't have an issue with saying that Russell is playing better than Ford. Right now if i were selecting it would be Russell that I would take of the 2. The issue I have is the suggestion that it's laughable to suggest otherwise, on the basis of Ford's defence or otherwise.

[whatisthejava]

Euge I never said, I started this slagging off people who thought Ford was a better defender than russel. I have even said Ford is a good solid englishesque fly half.

[Which Tyler]

Euge I never said, I started this slagging off people who thought Ford was a better defender than russel. I have even said Ford is a good solid englishesque fly half.

Have you found any yet?

And that's without mentioning that it's not even slightly what you actually said

Ford cant tackle wont tackle

Which is demonstrably untrue; and what you got called out for.

[whatisthejava]

Euge I never said, I started this slagging off people who thought Ford was a better defender than russel. I have even said Ford is a good solid englishesque fly half.

Have you found any yet?

Nobody, it started on 606

And that's without mentioning that it's not even slightly what you actually said

Ford cant tackle wont tackle

Which is demonstrably untrue; and what you got called out for.

Im not sure its demonstrably untrue, maybe a wee bit untrue, but Fords tackling is the worst bit of his game, but he is

hiding out on the wings
misisng tackles
when making tackles giving up quite a few metres

[whatisthejava]

And i like Ford as a fly half although the english backline aint ticking right now and the blame seems to be pretty divided between farrel and Ford although i think its more Fords issue

[Which Tyler]

Yes, defence may be the worst part of his game - mostly because he's so good at the other parts. I'd argue even then though, and suggest that, at test level, goal kicking is the worst part of his game.

IMO (as a fan of his club and his country) he doesn't hide out on the wings though - please provide evidence.
He does indeed miss tackles; but very few for a FH, and especially few for a FH renowned as a soft tackler and consistently targetted.
He does indeed give up a few metres - not as many as his reputation would make it seem; but it's a price you pay for having a small guy making the tackles (either go low and allow the offload, giving up the height of the player in metres; or go higher, usualy prevent the offload, but give up 2-3 metres in the tackle).

According to ESPN statistics this season; Ford makes an average of 7.3 tackles per 80 minutes; and brings his man down 90% of the time.
Compare that to his England contenders Farrell (10.3 tackles @76%), Cipriani (another targetted tackler; 10.9 tackles @ 79%); Lozowski (6.5 tackles at 73%); Burns (4.1 tackles @ 76%); Mallinder Jr (6.8 tackles @55%).

If you think his tackle rate is a fluke - over the previous 2 entire seasons he averaged 7.4 tackles @84%.

For someone who avoids tackling - he's really, really bad at it; and for someone who fails to tackle when given the chance, he's got a remarkably high tackle copmletion rate.

[OptimisticJock]

Ford is a fanny in the tackle.

[Renniks]

Euge I never said, I started this slagging off people who thought Ford was a better defender than russel. I have even said Ford is a good solid englishesque fly half.

Have you found any yet?

Nobody, it started on 606

And that's without mentioning that it's not even slightly what you actually said

Ford cant tackle wont tackle

Which is demonstrably untrue; and what you got called out for.

Im not sure its demonstrably untrue, maybe a wee bit untrue, but Fords tackling is the worst bit of his game, but he is

hiding out on the wings
misisng tackles
when making tackles giving up quite a few metres

Are we watching the same player?

I don't think he misses any more tackles than Russell does (this Six Nations stats would appear to back that up too).

He does give up a few meters, which, if I could have a more talented attacking fly half, who gave up less meters, I'd take, but I'm not sure we have that many knocking on the door (Lozowski and Burns, maybe?)

---
Would I take him to the Lions, I'm not sure, but he can tackle, and does tackle.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Euge I never said, I started this slagging off people who thought Ford was a better defender than russel. I have even said Ford is a good solid englishesque fly half.

I guess you forgot what you posted here as opposed to 606.

I had a quick look on 606

When this place swept out the dross even they didnt go to 606.

Honestly quotes so far

Itoje for captain
Farrel for 13 and Ringrose at 12
Ford ahead of Russel for 10 (never mind Ford cant tackle wont tackle)
haskell is leading contender for 7 because he is an out and out 7
Bigger threw AWJ and then 1/2p undr the bus FACT


Mental,

[Mellsblue]

Euge I never said, I started this slagging off people who thought Ford was a better defender than russel. I have even said Ford is a good solid englishesque fly half.

Have you found any yet?

Nobody, it started on 606

And that's without mentioning that it's not even slightly what you actually said

Ford cant tackle wont tackle

Which is demonstrably untrue; and what you got called out for.

Im not sure its demonstrably untrue, maybe a wee bit untrue, but Fords tackling is the worst bit of his game, but he is

hiding out on the wings
misisng tackles
when making tackles giving up quite a few metres

Is he hiding out on the wings? He may find himself there from time to time but then who doesn't. I haven't looked for it particularly but off first phase he stands in the 10 channel, even off things such as lineouts where he can be easily targeted.

[bruce]

Whether it be good, bad or indifferent, tackling aside. I just don't get the Ford thing. Perhaps I need to watch him more closely during a game, but he is in my mind too anonymous. Too often I will begrudgingly applaud a nice kick out of hand from England to find out it was Daly, or a decent flat pass to find out it was Farrell. To me he just doesn't have that air of command that a 10 needs, and I would take all of the other starting and some of the replacement home nations 10's before Ford.

[kk67]

You do. He's quality.
.....he's like a 9.5 and a 10...?.