Team for France

[Sourdust]

We had the same old circles going around on ScrumV tonight.

If we don't play our "top" players, we drop places, drop points, lose money. If we won't pick new caps in a dead rubber, when will we?

Jiffy says "How can you pick players who aren't the best?" Gwyn replies "How can you know they're the best if you wont try alternatives?"

If we stick to the same 23 next week and win, we'll have salvaged our pride and secured the short-term future, at the cost of having learned absolutely nothing, again.

If we pick new blood and lose, we'll have a few valuable answers, but we'll be left holding the effective wooden spoon (Italy don't count) and confidence will be rock-bottom. But then, does it really matter whether we come 3rd, 4th or 5th? Or rather, accepting that it matters a BIT, does it really matter ENOUGH?

I don't know the answer, but I know what I think I'd do: Leave the starting 15 the same, perhaps with Taulupe and/or Clart in there. But load the bench with genuine wildcards; Steff Evans/Keelan Giles, Olly Cracknell/James Davies, Aled Davies/Tom Habberfield, Christian Dacey/Sam Parry. Commit to bringing all or most of these "finishers" on with 25-30 to go, unless there are powerful extenuating circumstances which do NOT include the score being close; in other words, injuries/cards. Make it clear to the starters that preparing the match for the finishers to flourish is their responsibility, rather than it being the latter's job to get the old guard out of the shit.

[Sandydragon]

I'm with Gwyn Jones. No one is calling for a huge overhaul, more like 3 changes. Tom Young is a real prospect but is up against players at the top of their game, so he needs to wait his turn. Swap Davie and Biggar, and swap step Evans with Halfpenny, with Liam moving to full back. Let's see how that works and the replacement players are in good form so it's hardly a huge gamble.

[joshfishkins]

We had the same old circles going around on ScrumV tonight.

If we don't play our "top" players, we drop places, drop points, lose money. If we won't pick new caps in a dead rubber, when will we?

Jiffy says "How can you pick players who aren't the best?" Gwyn replies "How can you know they're the best if you wont try alternatives?"

If we stick to the same 23 next week and win, we'll have salvaged our pride and secured the short-term future, at the cost of having learned absolutely nothing, again.

If we pick new blood and lose, we'll have a few valuable answers, but we'll be left holding the effective wooden spoon (Italy don't count) and confidence will be rock-bottom. But then, does it really matter whether we come 3rd, 4th or 5th? Or rather, accepting that it matters a BIT, does it really matter ENOUGH?

I don't know the answer, but I know what I think I'd do: Leave the starting 15 the same, perhaps with Taulupe and/or Clart in there. But load the bench with genuine wildcards; Steff Evans/Keelan Giles, Olly Cracknell/James Davies, Aled Davies/Tom Habberfield, Christian Dacey/Sam Parry. Commit to bringing all or most of these "finishers" on with 25-30 to go, unless there are powerful extenuating circumstances which do NOT include the score being close; in other words, injuries/cards. Make it clear to the starters that preparing the match for the finishers to flourish is their responsibility, rather than it being the latter's job to get the old guard out of the shit.

This is spot on. Howley is between a rock and a hard place still as far as I'm concerned. His inability /refusal to blood new players in the autumn means we have no idea of their ability to step up now. What's the prize pot difference between 2nd and 3rd/4th/5th? If it isn't significant we should just experiment and start with Sam Davies.

Oh, and Nighty Night, I was out having a life, rather than having an Internet argument with an imbecile.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

[ALunpg]

It' seems we are also on the same merry go around here regarding Halfpenny and Liam...
I spent some time looking at the 2013 Lions and how much Halfpenny has gone into his shell regarding attacking down the flanks... some of the runs in the last Lions test were awesome .
So ..same coaches ..same player..what is the difference...has playing for Toulon suppressed his instincts...has the injury taken longer to resolve in how he attacks the line.
I think Liam is the better attacking option Halfpenny the better defence for me . But right now we should concentrate on winning in France and as I have said swapping those two will not solve the problems that we still face IMHO.
The 4 on 2 overlap against Ireland was a classic with the ball carrier eating up the space and the outside players not trying to fix the two drifting defenders.

I do like the idea of exposing Sam earlier in the match but that is as much as we can see in the changes this week.

[morepork]

Someone on here commented that Halfpenny has not scored an international try for four years. That is a bit of a worry for an outside back. I'm not sure Gatland et.al. have any planned moves or game plans that involve the fullback in anything other than kicking. It's turned a smart talented footballer into a total robot.

[Nightynight]

Nighty, wind your neck in. If you wish to discuss Welsh rugby then carry in, but this is just blatant wumming and it won't be tolerated.

Rest my case son beam.

[Nightynight]

We had the same old circles going around on ScrumV tonight.

If we don't play our "top" players, we drop places, drop points, lose money. If we won't pick new caps in a dead rubber, when will we?

Jiffy says "How can you pick players who aren't the best?" Gwyn replies "How can you know they're the best if you wont try alternatives?"

If we stick to the same 23 next week and win, we'll have salvaged our pride and secured the short-term future, at the cost of having learned absolutely nothing, again.

If we pick new blood and lose, we'll have a few valuable answers, but we'll be left holding the effective wooden spoon (Italy don't count) and confidence will be rock-bottom. But then, does it really matter whether we come 3rd, 4th or 5th? Or rather, accepting that it matters a BIT, does it really matter ENOUGH?
See previous post.
I don't know the answer, but I know what I think I'd do: Leave the starting 15 the same, perhaps with Taulupe and/or Clart in there. But load the bench with genuine wildcards; Steff Evans/Keelan Giles, Olly Cracknell/James Davies, Aled Davies/Tom Habberfield, Christian Dacey/Sam Parry. Commit to bringing all or most of these "finishers" on with 25-30 to go, unless there are powerful extenuating circumstances which do NOT include the score being close; in other words, injuries/cards. Make it clear to the starters that preparing the match for the finishers to flourish is their responsibility, rather than it being the latter's job to get the old guard out of the shit.

This is spot on. Howley is between a rock and a hard place still as far as I'm concerned. His inability /refusal to blood new players in the autumn means we have no idea of their ability to step up now. What's the prize pot difference between 2nd and 3rd/4th/5th? If it isn't significant we should just experiment and start with Sam Davies.

Oh, and Nighty Night, I was out having a life, rather than having an Internet argument with an imbecile.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

[Sourdust]

Someone on here commented that Halfpenny has not scored an international try for four years. That is a bit of a worry for an outside back. I'm not sure Gatland et.al. have any planned moves or game plans that involve the fullback in anything other than kicking. It's turned a smart talented footballer into a total robot.

I think there's genuine doubt as to ½p's place in the team, for the first time in six years. I actually thought he had a better attacking game on Friday than for a while, but that's not saying much. What's particularly frustrating is that he doesn't seem to have lost much, if any, of his speed - witness his acceleration for the first try - but he just so rarely uses it. Now that his defensive game - while still very good - seems less superhuman than before, it's no longer heretical to ask what he's there for. Certainly if Biggar is going to stay at 10, we don't really need ½p for goal kicks.

I'm nowhere near calling for him to be dropped yet, but I might at least countenance a back three without him now, and even that feels weird.

[Sandydragon]

Someone on here commented that Halfpenny has not scored an international try for four years. That is a bit of a worry for an outside back. I'm not sure Gatland et.al. have any planned moves or game plans that involve the fullback in anything other than kicking. It's turned a smart talented footballer into a total robot.

I think there's genuine doubt as to ½p's place in the team, for the first time in six years. I actually thought he had a better attacking game on Friday than for a while, but that's not saying much. What's particularly frustrating is that he doesn't seem to have lost much, if any, of his speed - witness his acceleration for the first try - but he just so rarely uses it. Now that his defensive game - while still very good - seems less superhuman than before, it's no longer heretical to ask what he's there for. Certainly if Biggar is going to stay at 10, we don't really need ½p for goal kicks.

I'm nowhere near calling for him to be dropped yet, but I might at least countenance a back three without him now, and even that feels weird.

Agreed. He is still solid and reliable, and his pass to North for the try was spot on. But, he doesn't challenge defences (is that him or the team tactics?) and Liam does at least keep defenders honest. I'd happily swap the 2 anyway, but with Halfpenny's kicking not being the nailed oncert for 3 points that it was, he needs to up his game to keep his place, with the likes of Evans and Gilles, not to mention Amos, pushing for inclusion.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Someone on here commented that Halfpenny has not scored an international try for four years. That is a bit of a worry for an outside back. I'm not sure Gatland et.al. have any planned moves or game plans that involve the fullback in anything other than kicking. It's turned a smart talented footballer into a total robot.

I think there's genuine doubt as to ½p's place in the team, for the first time in six years. I actually thought he had a better attacking game on Friday than for a while, but that's not saying much. What's particularly frustrating is that he doesn't seem to have lost much, if any, of his speed - witness his acceleration for the first try - but he just so rarely uses it. Now that his defensive game - while still very good - seems less superhuman than before, it's no longer heretical to ask what he's there for. Certainly if Biggar is going to stay at 10, we don't really need ½p for goal kicks.

I'm nowhere near calling for him to be dropped yet, but I might at least countenance a back three without him now, and even that feels weird.

Agreed. He is still solid and reliable, and his pass to North for the try was spot on. But, he doesn't challenge defences (is that him or the team tactics?) and Liam does at least keep defenders honest. I'd happily swap the 2 anyway, but with Halfpenny's kicking not being the nailed oncert for 3 points that it was, he needs to up his game to keep his place, with the likes of Evans and Gilles, not to mention Amos, pushing for inclusion.

1/2p's pickup for North's first try was incredible - Webb, Scott, 1/2p and North combined brilliantly but 1/2p's part was the most difficult IMO. But he needs to keep getting involved, last week cannot be a one-off.

[Son of Mathonwy]

We are secure in the top 8 for the RWC rankings now, so we CAN afford to take more risks (not that what I'm suggesting is a terrifying risk).

Just swap Sam and Dan, Liam and Leigh, and call up Giles to take Roberts's bench place (with a view to giving him at least 20 minutes at the end). I know this seems a little tough on Steff Evans but this is international rugby - we need to try out our best prospects, and I think Giles is Wales's best prospect on the wing (nothing has changed since the Autumn on that score IMO). It would be tempting to bring Beck in at 13 (which I would have done at the start of the competition), but let's not change too many things at once.

[Sandydragon]

I think there's genuine doubt as to ½p's place in the team, for the first time in six years. I actually thought he had a better attacking game on Friday than for a while, but that's not saying much. What's particularly frustrating is that he doesn't seem to have lost much, if any, of his speed - witness his acceleration for the first try - but he just so rarely uses it. Now that his defensive game - while still very good - seems less superhuman than before, it's no longer heretical to ask what he's there for. Certainly if Biggar is going to stay at 10, we don't really need ½p for goal kicks.

I'm nowhere near calling for him to be dropped yet, but I might at least countenance a back three without him now, and even that feels weird.

Agreed. He is still solid and reliable, and his pass to North for the try was spot on. But, he doesn't challenge defences (is that him or the team tactics?) and Liam does at least keep defenders honest. I'd happily swap the 2 anyway, but with Halfpenny's kicking not being the nailed oncert for 3 points that it was, he needs to up his game to keep his place, with the likes of Evans and Gilles, not to mention Amos, pushing for inclusion.

1/2p's pickup for North's first try was incredible - Webb, Scott, 1/2p and North combined brilliantly but 1/2p's part was the most difficult IMO. But he needs to keep getting involved, last week cannot be a one-off.

I was reading somewhere that the management value Halfpenny for his link play, whereas Liam tends to die with the ball too often. But if that is the case, why do we not see more of this. Im perfectly comfortable with Halfpennys personal try scoring record if he is setting tries up for others, but he rarely attacks the line in this way. With his kicking game not as reliable as it was and a few question marks over this aerial game at the moment, he isn't the shoe in he once was.

Given that he is also going to stay out of Wales when his contract is renewed, I wonder if one of the wild card slots will go his way or not?

[Son of Mathonwy]

Agreed. He is still solid and reliable, and his pass to North for the try was spot on. But, he doesn't challenge defences (is that him or the team tactics?) and Liam does at least keep defenders honest. I'd happily swap the 2 anyway, but with Halfpenny's kicking not being the nailed oncert for 3 points that it was, he needs to up his game to keep his place, with the likes of Evans and Gilles, not to mention Amos, pushing for inclusion.

1/2p's pickup for North's first try was incredible - Webb, Scott, 1/2p and North combined brilliantly but 1/2p's part was the most difficult IMO. But he needs to keep getting involved, last week cannot be a one-off.

I was reading somewhere that the management value Halfpenny for his link play, whereas Liam tends to die with the ball too often. But if that is the case, why do we not see more of this. Im perfectly comfortable with Halfpennys personal try scoring record if he is setting tries up for others, but he rarely attacks the line in this way. With his kicking game not as reliable as it was and a few question marks over this aerial game at the moment, he isn't the shoe in he once was.

Given that he is also going to stay out of Wales when his contract is renewed, I wonder if one of the wild card slots will go his way or not?

He's definitely taking a bit of a chance hoping for a wildcard with his form slipping a bit and Liam going to Saracens. Although Roberts will probably be the fall guy as things stand.

[Sandydragon]

Agreed, Roberts will probably lose his place. But with Faletau, Charteris, Liam Williams and Halfpenny fighting over 3 spots (is there anyone else who Galtand's law applies to who is in the frame?), someone is going to miss out and Id be stunned if it were Faletau. Id be surprised if Charteris were overlooked too as we don't have that many resources at lock up to the standard.

[joshfishkins]

Agreed, Roberts will probably lose his place. But with Faletau, Charteris, Liam Williams and Halfpenny fighting over 3 spots (is there anyone else who Galtand's law applies to who is in the frame?), someone is going to miss out and Id be stunned if it were Faletau. Id be surprised if Charteris were overlooked too as we don't have that many resources at lock up to the standard.

Is North exempt? What about Moriaty? I get confused with this stupid law.

[Numbers]

Talking about dropping inexperienced fly halfs into depleted teams, whats going on with Patchel?

Injured.

[Sandydragon]

Agreed, Roberts will probably lose his place. But with Faletau, Charteris, Liam Williams and Halfpenny fighting over 3 spots (is there anyone else who Galtand's law applies to who is in the frame?), someone is going to miss out and Id be stunned if it were Faletau. Id be surprised if Charteris were overlooked too as we don't have that many resources at lock up to the standard.

Is North exempt? What about Moriaty? I get confused with this stupid law.

I think they are still both unbound, although I'm less certain about north. I can't remember if he has been offered a contract in wales or not.

[Sourdust]

As I said above, Friday was IMO ½p's best showing in attack for a while. Yes, his take-and-give was perfect, and he did well to get in position for it too. He also made space and gave what should have been the scoring pass in the run-up to the Sexton incident.

But it's still not that much, and we suspect Liam would do considerably more. Although I still rate ½p's defence above Sanjay, the gap is not as clear as it was. I'm not sure his kicking has fallen off that badly; he's getting fewer chances. Although, the relative number of conversions he misses suggests a minor mental issue to me.

All in all, I'm not sure I'm ready to drop him. But I do think that for the first time in his career, he's not un-droppable.

[Ross. S]

I think benching Halfpenny could do him wonders. We all get conceted if we're that superior for a long time, I think Halfpenny has the right attitude that if he's benched he'll bust his balls to regain his place and show the doubters wrong. It would also help if the coaches took the shackles off too.

[ALunpg]

Someone on here commented that Halfpenny has not scored an international try for four years. That is a bit of a worry for an outside back. I'm not sure Gatland et.al. have any planned moves or game plans that involve the fullback in anything other than kicking. It's turned a smart talented footballer into a total robot.

Your point is correct based on what is shown lately ...but as I said wondering what has happened since the 2013 Lions ..if it was just the coaches..why was he used in a more attacking role in the Lions by the same coaches...

[ALunpg]

Agreed, Roberts will probably lose his place. But with Faletau, Charteris, Liam Williams and Halfpenny fighting over 3 spots (is there anyone else who Galtand's law applies to who is in the frame?), someone is going to miss out and Id be stunned if it were Faletau. Id be surprised if Charteris were overlooked too as we don't have that many resources at lock up to the standard.

Is North exempt? What about Moriaty? I get confused with this stupid law.

Presently my understanding is Moriarty , Charteris, Tomas Francis , Thomas Young and Owain Williams are exempt as none have been offered Welsh region contracts .
Falateu , Liam , Halfpenny, North and Roberts will all come under the rule..but my understanding is the number of wildcards is 4 for 2017/18 season, so possibly Roberts will miss out his contract is until end 2018 season

[joshfishkins]

Agreed, Roberts will probably lose his place. But with Faletau, Charteris, Liam Williams and Halfpenny fighting over 3 spots (is there anyone else who Galtand's law applies to who is in the frame?), someone is going to miss out and Id be stunned if it were Faletau. Id be surprised if Charteris were overlooked too as we don't have that many resources at lock up to the standard.

Is North exempt? What about Moriaty? I get confused with this stupid law.

Presently my understanding is Moriarty , Charteris, Tomas Francis , Thomas Young and Owain Williams are exempt as none have been offered Welsh region contracts .
Falateu , Liam , Halfpenny, North and Roberts will all come under the rule..but my understanding is the number of wildcards is 4 for 2017/18 season, so possibly Roberts will miss out his contract is until end 2018 season

Cheers mate. I agree that Roberts should be left out. It's long past time we looked at alternatives.

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[Sandydragon]

Agreed, Roberts will probably lose his place. But with Faletau, Charteris, Liam Williams and Halfpenny fighting over 3 spots (is there anyone else who Galtand's law applies to who is in the frame?), someone is going to miss out and Id be stunned if it were Faletau. Id be surprised if Charteris were overlooked too as we don't have that many resources at lock up to the standard.

Is North exempt? What about Moriaty? I get confused with this stupid law.

Presently my understanding is Moriarty , Charteris, Tomas Francis , Thomas Young and Owain Williams are exempt as none have been offered Welsh region contracts .
Falateu , Liam , Halfpenny, North and Roberts will all come under the rule..but my understanding is the number of wildcards is 4 for 2017/18 season, so possibly Roberts will miss out his contract is until end 2018 season

Thanks, I didn't realise that it was being increased to 4 wildcards. Out of those 5, Roberts is the one likely to miss out and as Josh says, we need to look at alternatives.

[Mikey Brown]

Can't you guys but him out so we can get someone better at Quins. Please???

[ALunpg]

Maybe the Dragons will take the Doc to play outside Henson ...