Statistic of the Day

[canta_brian]

Hove, actually.

I must have been thinking of the comic relief remake.

[Lizard]

Test caps against non-test NZ opposition.

I’m sure I’ve done this before, inspired by Wales continuing to insist that festival matches against the Baabaas deserve test caps. Anyhoo, this time it’s based on a discussion in the Worst All Blacks XV fred.

The NZRU had a policy of not awarding caps to non IRFB (as it was) members until around the mid-1980s. Membership in those days was limited to the Home Nations, France, NZ, Aussie and South Africa. Most national sides playing the All Blacks before then rightly considered these matches to be tests. Others have biffed caps at anyone playing a pack of blokes in black who might say “fush n chups.” The full (I think) list is:

Argentina
v All Blacks, 4 matches, 1976-79

Australia
v All Blacks, 24 matches, 1920-28 (Actually NSW teams, but retrospectively awarded Australian caps in 1986)
v NZ Maori, 16 matches, 1922-1958 (I presume, but cannot confirm, that until about 1929, the “Australian” teams were in fact NSW and recognition as Australian tests has been retrospective)

Canada
v All Blacks, 1 match, 1980
v NZ Maori, 2 matches, 2003

Cook islands
v NZ Maori, 1 match, 1980
v NZ Development XV, 2 matches, 1988-93

England
v NZ Natives, 1 match, 1889

Fiji
v All Blacks, 5 matches, 1968-84
v NZ Maori, 29 matches, 1938-2015

Hong Kong
v NZ Universities, 5 matches, 1936-1980
v NZ U23, 1 matches, 1958

Ireland
v NZ Natives, 1 match, 1888

Italy
v All Blacks, 1 match, 1979

Japan
v All Blacks, 2 matches 1987
v NZ Maori, 1 match, 2008
v NZ Universities, 15 matches, 1936-1982

Korea
v NZ Universities, 1 match, 1980

Romania
v NZ XV, 1 match, 1991

Singapore
v NZ Universities, 1 match, 1980

South Africa
v NZ Cavaliers, 4 matches, 1986

Spain
v NZ Maori, 2 matches, 1982-88

Sri Lanka
v NZ Maori, 1 match, 1926
v NZ Colts, 1 match, 1955

Tonga
v NZ Maori, 12 matches, 1960-2003

USA
v All Blacks, 1 match 1980
v NZ Maori, 1 match, 2006

Uruguay
v All Blacks, 1 match, 1976

USSR
v NZ XV, 1 match, 1991

Wales
v NZ Natives, 1 match, 1888
v NZ Army, 1 match, 1919

[rowan]

Probably mentioned before, but I understand Zimbabwe has retroactively recognized Rhodesia's matches against international sides as official test matches - including the 1949 victory over the All Blacks. Namibia might be able to do the same with SW Africa's fixtures against touring sides such as NZ, although they never beat any of them (until after independence).

Meanwhile, the 'Professional All Blacks,' who later morphed into the All Golds national rugby league team, played Sri Lanka under union rules on their way to Britian in 1907 - where they proceeded to play under league rules. Not surprising, really, as the squad comprised largely of former union players rounded by by Wellington sports writer Albert Baskiville for the purpose. To this day Sri Lankan rugby union fans (wrongly) believe their country played the fabled All Blacks that day. The score was 6-33 to the tourists.

Cook Islanders will tell you they held the Invincible All Blacks to a scoreless draw as the tourists stopped in on the way back from their marathon tour of Europe and North America in 1925. More likely they had a run around on an unmarked field without goal-posts!

Rugby News magazine sponsored a Youth tour of South America in the mid-80s. The young Kiwis lost to the senior men's teams of both Uruguay and Chile, from memory. This was a private tour, however, and nothing to do with the NZRFU.

[Lizard]

I forgot to mention that Fiji also awarded caps against a "Classic All Blacks" team in 2013.

We have definitely discussed the 1949 Rhodesia matches but I'm not sure that there was any evidence that Zimbabwe has since given them test status.

[rowan]

Their Wiki page certainly gives that impression:

The national team has a long association with touring British Isles teams, who would regularly play matches against them in their tours of South Africa. The earliest tour being in 1910 when Zimbabwe was known as Southern Rhodesia. The side has also played New Zealand on several occasions, the first being in the late 1920s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe_ ... union_team

[Lizard]

See the discussion here: http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtopic.php?t=918

The Wiki page makes no claim that caps were awarded. There is no doubt that the matches were played against official national/Lions touring sides. But I have looked for and never found any source backing your recollection that Zimbabwe awarded retrospective test caps to Rhodesian teams playing national sides. World Rugby does not publish any definitive lists of tests as test status (outside official WR events) is entirely a matter for national unions. Rhodesia certainly was not a member of the predecessor world organisation in 1949 anyway. ESPNScrum's database (the best in my view) contains matches in which only one side awarded caps and it does not include any Rhodesian matches at all. Rugbydata.com includes a wide variety of matches included ones where no caps were awarded (eg NZ v Barbarians) withiout distinguishing so it is no use. The fact that Rhodesian players were eligible for the Springboks makes me very doubtful that even the most parochial Zim administrators would claim those matches as tests.

As I said, if you have a source actually referring to the retrosepctive awarding of caps, I would love to see it (mostly because I like correcting ESPNScrum!)

[rowan]

The page refers to Southern Rhodesia's encounter with the British Lions in 1910 as the Zimbabwe national rugby team's "first international." This page must have been sanctioned by the Zimbabwe Rugby Union, I assume.

Here's an interesting piece of trivia: The All Blacks have actually played a match in what is today Zambia. The 1960 tourists defeated a Rhodesian XV 9-13 in what was then Northern Rhodesia.

[Lizard]

Wikipedia can be edited by literally anybody. I seriously doubt the ZRU sanctions that page.

In any event, a provincial side (which is what Rhodesia was) can legitimately refer to such matches as "internationals."

[Lizard]

I've emailed the ZRU to try to get to the bottom of this.

[rowan]

I did that a couple of years back and never got a reply. They would have to approve a Wiki page on their national rugby team which bears their official logo. The page refers to Southern Rhodesia's encounter with the 1910 Lions as Zimbabwe's first international rugby match. I'd say that's pretty clear. I'm not sure they regarded themselves as a provincial team only. Sure, they competed in South African provincial competition, but Rhodesia was a republic from 1965 and a separate British colony before that. Of course, Rhodesian players appeared for the Springboks, but only because they didn't have a touring team themselves and probably saw no reason to acquire one as the Boks were the team to strive for in that region of the globe. An entirely different mentality existed back then which had more to do with race and culture than separate governments and borders, and these questions probably never even occurred to them. It's a great shame really (as I have no doubt noted before), that South Africa didn't 'develop' Rhodesia as an international sparring partner as they became increasingly isolated during the Apartheid era. Even today they seem more inclined to add their southern neighbors to provincial competitions than actually play them in tests. Anyway, the ZRU certainly has every right to reclaim its heritage, in whatever form it may have existed prior to 1980.

[Lizard]

The logo is marked as being used under "Fair Use", not by permission of the ZRU. I've fixed the other bits.

[rowan]

I am certain none of the touring teams regarded those games as tests, and nor did the Rhodesian players at the time, but this was a decision taken by the ZRU, apparently, though we're having trouble confirming it. I find it a little difficult to believe they would allow Wikipedia sites to stand with their logo upon them and looking every word like the official proclamations of the national administration itself (which they quite probably are), if they contained false information. Anyway, that's all we've got to go on, a Wikipedia site that states the Zimbabwe national rugby team's first international was against the Lions in 1910 - as Southern Rhodesia, then a colony of Britain but not part of SA. If you google you can also find many accounts of that Rhodesian victory over the All Blacks in 1949 which now celebrate it as an international victory, though it obviously wasn't viewed in that light at the time. In fact, these were the New Zealand dirt-trackers, not required for test duty elsewhere, and I believe they made the long train journey up to Rhodesia in the absence of any coaching staff. At the same time, however, New Zealand's third-stringers took on the Wallabies back home and also lost, and what were certainly regarded as official tests. Them were the days !

[Lizard]

There is a difference between an "international" and a "test." Anyway, Wikipedia now specifies that Zimbabwe's first international in 1910 was uncapped. (I'm not sure you understand how Wikipedia works - if there was an official proclamation quoted, then the source would be given.). No doubt if the ZRU cares and disagrees, they can re-edit the article and cite a source backing up any claim that match was capped, but Wikipedia is not in the business of asking subjects to "sanction" pages about them.

I'm aware that reports of the 1949 match are legion and that Fred the Needle had all manner of reasons for the All Black's poor performance. I've not seen a single one that mention it being regarded as a test, or capped, or anything other than an international match between a foreign touring side and a local team. Similarly, the Wiki page for Waikato has a section on "International results". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waikato_R ... al_results

[Lizard]

Anyway, today's stat - Lions Squad experience in New Zealand

Here is the squad with the number of test caps each player has against New Zealand in New Zealand:
Rory Best 4
Dan Biggar 5
Dan Cole 0
Elliot Daly 0
Jonathan Davies 5
Taulupe Faletau 3
Owen Farrell 1
Tadhg Furlong 0
Jamie George 0
Leigh Halfpenny 2
Iain Henderson 0
Robbie Henshaw 0
Stuart Hogg 0
Maro Itoje 0
Alun Wyn Jones 5
Jonathan Joseph 0
George Kruis 0
Courtney Lawes 2
Joe Marler 3
Jack McGrath 0
Ross Moriarty 3
Conor Murray 3
George North 1
Jack Nowell 0
Sean O'Brien 3
Peter O'Mahony 3
Ken Owens 3
Jared Payne 0*
Jonathan Sexton 4
Tommy Seymour 0
Kyle Sinckler 0
CJ Stander 0
Ben Te'o 0
Justin Tipuric 0
Billy Vunipola 2
Mako Vunipola 0
Sam Warburton 3
Anthony Watson 0
Rhys Webb 3
Liam Williams 3
Ben Youngs 1

*No caps, but has played Super Rugby in NZ

[rowan]

No doubt if the ZRU cares and disagrees, they can re-edit the article

That's the point. They haven't. & of course they care.

[rowan]

Oh, has the Lions squad been named? Should be a few more Englishmen, I'd say. They and the All Blacks have been head and shoulders above the rest for the past year or so, notwithstanding the 6 Nations finale. I'm sure the Argies will be pleased to facing a stronger England team than they might have expected anyway. But that Lions team is going to go down in a screaming heap, me thinks - probably 3-0.

[Lizard]

We need to find a copy of this https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=FJL ... edir_esc=y

[Lizard]

Ah - now this guy seems to have had access to Winch's book and to have researched the 1949 win. He emphasises the provincial nature of the Rhodesian side and you would think would have mentioned any retrospective test status.



I really don't think the ZRU would "reclaim" the heritage of a win by guys called Salty du Rand and Ryk van Schoor who played actual tests against the All Blacks for the Springboks in 1949.

[rowan]

I really don't think the ZRU would "reclaim" the heritage of a win by guys called Salty du Rand and Ryk van Schoor who played actual tests against the All Blacks for the Springboks in 1949.

Sure they would. They're very proud of all their Rhodesian Springboks in the rugby fraternity. & Mario Bocchio's Italian

[Lizard]

I met a few old Rhodesian cricketers when I was over there but no-one associated with rugby as far as I knew.

I've also sent the ZRU a DM on Twitter, and LinkedIn invite to Jonty Winch. I'm keen to get a definitive answer on this.

[cashead]

Jesus fucking christ, who cares about Zimbo rugby when the conversation is going nowhere, very slowly?

Anyway, today's stat - Lions Squad experience in New Zealand

Taulupe Faletau 3
Kyle Sinckler 0
CJ Stander 0
Sam Warburton 3
Anthony Watson 0

All these guys have played against Super Rugby sides in NZ as well. Watson started for England when they played the Crusaders in 2014, and Sinckler came off the bench in that same fixture.
Warburton started the 2016 Hamilton Horrorshow (or Hilarity, depending on which side of the Wales v. NZ fence you're on) where the Welsh got absolutely thumped up by the Chiefs B team, while Faletau came off the bench.

Stander, of course, made 16 appearances for the Bulls in 2012 so odds are, a few of those games would've been in NZ, against NZ team - oddly enough.

[rowan]

I met a few old Rhodesian cricketers when I was over there but no-one associated with rugby as far as I knew.

I've also sent the ZRU a DM on Twitter, and LinkedIn invite to Jonty Winch. I'm keen to get a definitive answer on this.

Great. I've fired off a couple of emails myself as well, even found Monsignor Bocchio on Facebook, along with the ZRU itself (closed group)...

[Lizard]

Jesus fucking christ, who cares about Zimbo rugby when the conversation is going nowhere, very slowly?

Obviously Rowan and I care. It's a bit of stats for stats sake but personally I would think it an interesting fact (and a good pub quiz question) if someone had played home tests for two different teams against the same touring side.

Anyway, today's stat - Lions Squad experience in New Zealand

Taulupe Faletau 3
Kyle Sinckler 0
CJ Stander 0
Sam Warburton 3
Anthony Watson 0

All these guys have played against Super Rugby sides in NZ as well. Watson started for England when they played the Crusaders in 2014, and Sinckler came off the bench in that same fixture.
Warburton started the 2016 Hamilton Horrorshow (or Hilarity, depending on which side of the Wales v. NZ fence you're on) where the Welsh got absolutely thumped up by the Chiefs B team, while Faletau came off the bench.

Stander, of course, made 16 appearances for the Bulls in 2012 so odds are, a few of those games would've been in NZ, against NZ team - oddly enough.

Very good points.

Has any current Scotsman played against an NZ team (All Blacks, Super or provincial) in NZ since the 2005 Lions? (Other than Maitland who played for the Crusaders until 2012.)

Scotland's last NZ tour was in 2000 (which is ridiculous). They played Samoa here in 2004. In RWC2011 they played Eng, Arg, Geo and Rom.

[Lizard]

I forgot about John Hardie - Highlander until 2015.

[cashead]

Maitland, Hardie and Josh Strauss are the obvious ones. The only other Scotland international in Super Rugby I can think of is Gregor Townsend who played for the Sharks back in 04.