Lions

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Gatland already talking about goalkicking so that's goodbye to Hogg's chances of starting the first test.

Sexton/Farrell have that covered.

Tries might also be quite important. 1/2p has scored one Test try in the last five years.

Having casually compared him to Girvan Dempsey I looked him up and he doesn't score much even in club rugby.

[kk67]

Gatland already talking about goalkicking so that's goodbye to Hogg's chances of starting the first test.

Sexton/Farrell have that covered.

Tries might also be quite important. 1/2p has scored one Test try in the last five years.

Having casually compared him to Girvan Dempsey I looked him up and he doesn't score much even in club rugby.

He's a 15. His try scoring record is secondary to his defence.

[QwentyJ]

This is the Accenture statistical team of the 2017 6Ns, which would suggest that Launchbury, Russell, Zebo and Earls have the clearest shout for being hard done by. Of these, I think only Launchbury has a cast iron case that he's missed out to lads who are not quite as good.

And sorry, but those of you questioning the Oranje ballix Henderson's selection need to get your heads out of your hands and take an honest look at the lad.

Having said that, I am entirely selfish and wish that Connor, CJ and POM had lost out too.

I'm looking at the other inclusions in the second row and when compared to Launchbury and Gray, I can understand the call but I cannot see what he offers over Gray and Launchbury, hence my castigation of his selection.

[kk67]

Who knows we may even have a Hartleyesque ban before the tour.

... or a Quinny-esque?

Is anyone opening the book?

My money would be on anyone from the Ospreys or Scarlets who will be having to kick lumps off each other in 3 weeks to secure a Pro12 play-off slot.

Now, now....we don't wish injury on players in this game. It's not like any of them are Jack Wilshere.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Sexton/Farrell have that covered.

Tries might also be quite important. 1/2p has scored one Test try in the last five years.

Having casually compared him to Girvan Dempsey I looked him up and he doesn't score much even in club rugby.

He's a 15. His try scoring record is secondary to his defence.

His defence isn't all that - although it used to be better -
and 15s are rather required to be an attacking threat nowadays.

[Big D]

Not wishing injury on anyone but launchbury has to be next in line in the second row. I wouldn't be surprised if Gray Snr was ahead of junior based on the 6N either.

I'm a fan of Ulster, married into it. I do think Henderson is a grand player. Just not IMO as good an out and out 2nd row as others who missed out. The fact he can play 6 is negated the other players in the squad who can play 6 every bit as well as him.

I have wondered whether Russell's continued embarrassing attempts at an international drop goal and tactical kicking* from hand have been held against him too much. There is talk about the defence of Farrell, Sexton and Biggar but I'm not buying Russell is any worse than Sexton or Biggar.

*Hogg, Laidlaw and Price seem to take a lot of the kicking responsibilities.

[kk67]

Not wishing injury on anyone but launchbury has to be next in line in the second row. I wouldn't be surprised if Gray Snr was ahead of junior based on the 6N either.

I'm a fan of Ulster, married into it. I do think Henderson is a grand player. Just not IMO as good an out and out 2nd row as others who missed out. The fact he can play 6 is negated the other players in the squad who can play 6 every bit as well as him.

I have wondered whether Russell's continued embarrassing attempts at an international drop goal and tactical kicking* from hand have been held against him too much. There is talk about the defence of Farrell, Sexton and Biggar but I'm not buying Russell is any worse than Sexton or Biggar.

*Hogg, Laidlaw and Price seem to take a lot of the kicking responsibilities.

It does seem odd that Launchbury is missing out precisely because he's a loosish 2nd row all rounder with good vision and hands.

<ironyairplanecrash>


3rd edit.

[Mikey Brown]

That a quote from Gatland is it? Missing out because he's an all rounder with good vision and hands?

I'm not sure I'd put it past him to be honest.

[kk67]

It gets disappointing when your favoured players get knocked back...but this is taking the piss.
That 2nd row selection is wrong..

[whatisthejava]

Stern verns tweet demonstrates the nonsense of warburton over Watson and bigger over russel.

It doesn't matter if I was picking there would be 8 scots and 0 welsh more Irish and more English.

[Big D]

Stern verns tweet demonstrates the nonsense of warburton over Watson and bigger over russel.

It doesn't matter if I was picking there would be 8 scots and 0 welsh more Irish and more English.

Does anyone know what website/app those stats are from?

Would like to see if it does averages/game Bigger played 600minutes less so would be interested in the per game differences between the 3 10 options (Finn, Ford and Biggar) to see of Biggar is as far in 3rd as we'd all suspect.

[whatisthejava]

Russell

To be honest, he was utterly awful against England, in a game where he really needed to put on a big performance. I mean, he did, but not in a good way.

Yeah, it's unfair to judge a guy by 1 bad game where the entire team was shit, but the way he was shit-the-bed-like-Spud levels of bad, it probably would've been enough to place that doubt about his temperament for the big occasion for Gatland. If he needed an excuse to not pick Russel, he got one.

Can't disagree but it's the same guy who outclassed dan carter , twice in 2weeks.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Russell

To be honest, he was utterly awful against England, in a game where he really needed to put on a big performance. I mean, he did, but not in a good way.

Yeah, it's unfair to judge a guy by 1 bad game where the entire team was shit, but the way he was shit-the-bed-like-Spud levels of bad, it probably would've been enough to place that doubt about his temperament for the big occasion for Gatland. If he needed an excuse to not pick Russel, he got one.

Can't disagree but it's the same guy who outclassed dan carter , twice in 2weeks.

Outclassed Dan Carter? Or was on a team that outclassed Dan Carter's team?

Henderson is (or can be) a better carrier than either Gray or Launchbury. That's presumably Gatland's reasoning. Givenhe currently seems to mainly stop when he reaches contact in order to set up a maul/ruck it seems an odd attribute to pick him on but at his best he's head and shoulders about the other lock options in that respect, if not any other.

[whatisthejava]

To be honest, he was utterly awful against England, in a game where he really needed to put on a big performance. I mean, he did, but not in a good way.
Yeah, it's unfair to judge a guy by 1 bad game where the entire team was shit, but the way he was shit-the-bed-like-Spud levels of bad, it probably would've been enough to place that doubt about his temperament for the big occasion for Gatland. If he needed an excuse to not pick Russel, he got one.

Can't disagree but it's the same guy who outclassed dan carter , twice in 2weeks.

Outclassed Dan Carter? Or was on a team that outclassed Dan Carter's team?

Henderson is (or can be) a better carrier than either Gray or Launchbury. That's presumably Gatland's reasoning. Givenhe currently seems to mainly stop when he reaches contact in order to set up a maul/ruck it seems an odd attribute to pick him on but at his best he's head and shoulders about the other lock options in that respect, if not any other.

Hey the media declared that about Finn Russel

I think you have made another point about Gatlands selections, he has went for ball carriers over anything else, Scotland is always light on ball carriers so this helps Gatland pick the more direct players. my wider question is can a team of ball carriers from 1 - 8) with massive centres, big wings and a solid defensive full back beat the all blacks ?

Whatever you say the lions DVD will have a lot of clips of people running into contact

[Digby]

Meanwhile the SRU picks up somewhere in the region of £2m as its financial dividend from Lions Tour profits. As an equal shareholder, there is a straight split four ways between the home unions, irrespective of player representation. And we wont have the same impact on our clubs and national side in the first half of next year.

True, but they also get paid per player, and so the WRU who release Gats for such service will pick up £840k compared to the SRU who'll get just £140k. In a lot of organisations that'd be considered a conflict of interest, not here it seems

Thanks. I'd seen the 70,000 figure quoted in a number of places in relation to player payments.

Having now researched further I see there is an equivalent amount paid to unions to compensate for lack of availability for summer tours. Can see the logic. How do the RFU sort this - do they collect and reimburse to the clubs or is it all tied up in the with PRL agreement?

There will also be compensation to clubs for any injuries incurred on tour - presumably backed off with insurance.

The RFU do collect and distribute to the clubs as part of their agreement with PRL I believe. Whether that's on an equal basis or per player I don't know, if it is equal I doubt Sarries will have many feeling sorry for them

[Tobylerone]

Back to a rugby question.. Would I be right in thinking that the Lions are unlikely to encounter any members (other than fringe) of the AB`s squad until the first Test.?

[OptimisticJock]

Outclassed Dan Carter

[zer0]

Back to a rugby question.. Would I be right in thinking that the Lions are unlikely to encounter any members (other than fringe) of the AB`s squad until the first Test.?

Full squads will be available for the first two/three franchise tour matches. The Blues (first franchise match) have plenty of attacking talent but are prone to doing inexplicably dumb stuff. Basically they're more French than the French. The Crusaders (second franchise match) field the All Black pack and are currently undefeated after seven matches. Though a couple of injuries will render their backline pretty toothless on attack.

[Matt Ha]

Just add my moan about the selection. Had a watch of the Scotland-Wales game again. With a whopping 11 of the starting Welsh XV in the Lions squad you would have expected them to draw upon all the qualities Mr Gatland talks about (experience, knowing how to win away, knowing each other, mental strength in the face of adversity) and spank Scotland's arse. They failed to do so miserably, but even if they were all out to lunch mentally you would still think 11 Lions vs 2 Lions would mean they had more than enough raw rugby talent to overcome the oppostion. I know I'm probably reading far too much into one game but I feel like moaning.

[Soapy]

"Outclassed Dan Carter? Or was on a team that outclassed Dan Carter's team?"

All who have played rugby to any level know that poorer players in stronger teams appear better than they are and conversely it is harder for strong players to perform in weaker teams. Being in a strong team has been a prime factor in the Lion's selection since 1997 (until this year's imbalance ...).

The frustration is that for many years Lions selection of Scots has counted against them due to the results of the national side and the lack of desire/time to develop a squad means that entire tranches of players in the most successful teams go en-masse - further reducing the chances of strong players from less strong nations.

It has been the misfortune of the best Scottish players to have been in a generally poor Scottish sides over a period when the squad development aspects of Lions tours have disappeared in the interests of money making and schedule pressure. Our best players have been overlooked in any 50:50 calls. This has been further exacerbated by recent coaches and selectors being strongly affiliated to specific national teams and falling back on what they know and a pre-determined style of play.

Based purely on form (and to a degree fitness) over the last year I would say that 4 Welsh players merited automatic selection - Webb, Williams, Tipuric and Owens. I do think Faletau is a really good player (a better natural rugby player than Billy V, I think) and should definitely have got the nod. The rest of the Welsh selection IMO were due to familiarity of the coaches and a predetermined style of play for which unfortunately very few of the fit Scots players have the physique that Gatland values above all else. For example if one of the 3 FHs gets injured I really can't see Ford or Russell getting the call - you've seen it repeatedly in his unwillingness to select these types of players for Wales, why would he do it for the Lions?

[Mikey Brown]

Just add my moan about the selection. Had a watch of the Scotland-Wales game again. With a whopping 11 of the starting Welsh XV in the Lions squad you would have expected them to draw upon all the qualities Mr Gatland talks about (experience, knowing how to win away, knowing each other, mental strength in the face of adversity) and spank Scotland's arse. They failed to do so miserably, but even if they were all out to lunch mentally you would still think 11 Lions vs 2 Lions would mean they had more than enough raw rugby talent to overcome the oppostion. I know I'm probably reading far too much into one game but I feel like moaning.

I think the way Gatland sees it these guys have credit in the bank, whether they have bad days over and over again they are still good players, whereas the good Scottish performances are aberrations.

The default is go with the Welsh, but unfortunately had to take the England v Scotland, Sarries v Glasgow and Ireland v ABs games in to account.

[Spiffy]

Just add my moan about the selection. Had a watch of the Scotland-Wales game again. With a whopping 11 of the starting Welsh XV in the Lions squad you would have expected them to draw upon all the qualities Mr Gatland talks about (experience, knowing how to win away, knowing each other, mental strength in the face of adversity) and spank Scotland's arse. They failed to do so miserably, but even if they were all out to lunch mentally you would still think 11 Lions vs 2 Lions would mean they had more than enough raw rugby talent to overcome the oppostion. I know I'm probably reading far too much into one game but I feel like moaning.

I think the way Gatland sees it these guys have credit in the bank, whether they have bad days over and over again they are still good players, whereas the good Scottish performances are aberrations.

The default is go with the Welsh, but unfortunately had to take the England v Scotland, Sarries v Glasgow and Ireland v ABs games in to account.

I'm sure Gatland does think his Welsh favourites have credit in the bank, but most would not agree with that selection policy. I'd rather he selected on recent form, not on how someone played four years ago. He will continue to select big lumps over flair players and to keep on playing the limited form of Gatball that has been outdated for a long time. As a coach he has shown no innovation for years. The Lions only won the last series against the worst Oz team in history because about four Oz backs were carried off in the first test, and Beale slipped on his arse while taking a potentially match winning penalty. Gatland's favourite, J. Davies, missed a crucial tackle that led to an Oz win in the second test and was very average for the whiole series - but somehow, in the mythical retelling, he was brilliant on that tour.

[Donny osmond]

Just add my moan about the selection. Had a watch of the Scotland-Wales game again. With a whopping 11 of the starting Welsh XV in the Lions squad you would have expected them to draw upon all the qualities Mr Gatland talks about (experience, knowing how to win away, knowing each other, mental strength in the face of adversity) and spank Scotland's arse. They failed to do so miserably, but even if they were all out to lunch mentally you would still think 11 Lions vs 2 Lions would mean they had more than enough raw rugby talent to overcome the oppostion. I know I'm probably reading far too much into one game but I feel like moaning.

I think the way Gatland sees it these guys have credit in the bank, whether they have bad days over and over again they are still good players, whereas the good Scottish performances are aberrations.

The default is go with the Welsh, but unfortunately had to take the England v Scotland, Sarries v Glasgow and Ireland v ABs games in to account.

I'm sure Gatland does think his Welsh favourites have credit in the bank, but most would not agree with that selection policy. I'd rather he selected on recent form, not on how someone played four years ago. He will continue to select big lumps over flair players and to keep on playing the limited form of Gatball that has been outdated for a long time. As a coach he has shown no innovation for years. The Lions only won the last series against the worst Oz team in history because about four Oz backs were carried off in the first test, and Beale slipped on his arse while taking a potentially match winning penalty. Gatland's favourite, J. Davies, missed a crucial tackle that led to an Oz win in the second test and was very average for the whiole series - but somehow, in the mythical retelling, he was brilliant on that tour.

This. Esp about the last lions tour about which much shite has been spouted, happy as I was to see them beat Oz.

Gats limitations as a coach have been much described, so lets not get our panties all bunched up about it all over again.

The selections work well for Scotland in that we can send a proper development team away on tour whilst watching the lions get man shamed the length and breadth of NZ. I'll still be supporting the Lions, but lets be honest, Gatland isn't going to achieve anything worth achieving this summer, except for 40 players who will each have a chapter to put in their autobiographies, and some Lions goodies to give away.

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[Lizard]

So given that Shag has dissed "Warrenball" in the press, will Gats double down on it, or try a different game plan?

[Mellsblue]

So given that Shag has dissed "Warrenball" in the press, will Gats double down on it, or try a different game plan?

Hahahahahahahahaha. Good one.