Lions

[hp18]

Anyone think Finn will see time on Tuesday.

I reckon hell get 10/15 so garland can say he's given him a shot after recent criticism. Won't matter a fuck if he single handily defeated the canes though.

Scratch that. He showed himself to be an even bigger cunt.

[Edinburgh in Exile]

He was ok, but his speed in getting the ball away is slower than it needs to be and his box kicking isn't the most accurate

Aye, this. Those offensive box kicks weren't good.

That game last night needed the bench.

[whatisthejava]

Anyone think Finn will see time on Tuesday.

I reckon hell get 10/15 so garland can say he's given him a shot after recent criticism. Won't matter a fuck if he single handily defeated the canes though.

Scratch that. He showed himself to be an even bigger cunt.

70k to sit on a bench of 140 mins

Thats £500 a minute or

about £17K/minute he was on the pitch (I read he did 4 mins)

[hugh_woatmeigh]

I reckon hell get 10/15 so garland can say he's given him a shot after recent criticism. Won't matter a fuck if he single handily defeated the canes though.

Scratch that. He showed himself to be an even bigger cunt.

70k to sit on a bench of 140 mins

Thats £500 a minute or

about £17K/minute he was on the pitch (I read he did 4 mins)

I'm sure Finn would have rather had more minutes and he certainly deserved them. From a Scotland POV this was a disaster though. Gatland gives us 2 fingers up again.

[General Zod]

From a Scotland POV this was a disaster though. Gatland gives us 2 fingers up again.

It's not really a disaster, though, is it? Who cares what gatland thinks? Nobody got injured.

So, we get players in or we don't. So what?

[Big D]

I'm not convinced Russell would have played against Fiji. Horne and Jackson were due a run.

Russell was also less likelybtp be broken on a bench in NZ than the Fiji game if he played. So having a fit and motivated Russell back at Glasgow and Scotland will be a good thing.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

From a Scotland POV this was a disaster though. Gatland gives us 2 fingers up again.

It's not really a disaster, though, is it? Who cares what gatland thinks? Nobody got injured.

So, we get players in or we don't. So what?

Well yes, it was because our backline couldn't string two passes together against Fiji and was sorely missing some game breakers & experienced heads. You really think Townsend would have agreed to this if Gatland had been honest about his intentions from the start?

[wanderingjock]

From a Scotland POV this was a disaster though. Gatland gives us 2 fingers up again.

It's not really a disaster, though, is it? Who cares what gatland thinks? Nobody got injured.

So, we get players in or we don't. So what?

Well yes, it was because our backline couldn't string two passes together against Fiji and was sorely missing some game breakers & experienced heads. You really think Townsend would have agreed to this if Gatland had been honest about his intentions from the start?

I don't think gatland knows or knew his intentions, which is more worrying? anyone know the protocol for sending the coach for an HIA?

Incidentally

[wanderingjock]

I'm not overly worried by his intentions, I do think it's crazy that he chose a bench he wasn't going to use and whilst watching, he didn't think hmmm, either I use the bench, or I should have picked a different one. Anyway....but then I think he's always been a bit of a calamity

[Big D]

The other thing to consider from Dell and Russells POV is the purely the money side of it. Yes people will say they could have been playing for Scotland blah blah blah but anyone hoping they would turn down the Lions and £70k to play one game in Fiji is bonkers. Never mind that the Lions will be something Russell probably have wanted to be involved in since he was wee, £70k to any player based in Scotland is a huge chunk of money in a short career. It's nearly 20% of Hoggs new deal and he is by far the top paid player is Scotland.

Dell has a new contract as an international and you can bet the agent will have mentioned the Lions (despite the nature around the call up). And £70k will be a huge percentage of his current salary.

Russell is after a big money deal. And again £70k will represent a reasonable (third?) percentage of his yearly wage.

[Stones of granite]

The other thing to consider from Dell and Russells POV is the purely the money side of it. Yes people will say they could have been playing for Scotland blah blah blah but anyone hoping they would turn down the Lions and £70k to play one game in Fiji is bonkers. Never mind that the Lions will be something Russell probably have wanted to be involved in since he was wee, £70k to any player based in Scotland is a huge chunk of money in a short career. It's nearly 20% of Hoggs new deal and he is by far the top paid player is Scotland.

Dell has a new contract as an international and you can bet the agent will have mentioned the Lions (despite the nature around the call up). And £70k will be a huge percentage of his current salary.

Russell is after a big money deal. And again £70k will represent a reasonable (third?) percentage of his yearly wage.

I don't think I've read of anyone criticising Russell and Dell, or indeed the four Welshmen, for going when asked. It is the ludicrous decision by Gatland to take them, then subsequently not use them that is being criticised.
Personally, I would obviously have preferred Finn to be in Fiji, but I can't help thinking that the loss, and the nature of the loss, may actually help us in the long term by perhaps preventing Toony from getting carried away with himself. Although there is clearly a downside in terms of confidence..

[Big D]

The other thing to consider from Dell and Russells POV is the purely the money side of it. Yes people will say they could have been playing for Scotland blah blah blah but anyone hoping they would turn down the Lions and £70k to play one game in Fiji is bonkers. Never mind that the Lions will be something Russell probably have wanted to be involved in since he was wee, £70k to any player based in Scotland is a huge chunk of money in a short career. It's nearly 20% of Hoggs new deal and he is by far the top paid player is Scotland.

Dell has a new contract as an international and you can bet the agent will have mentioned the Lions (despite the nature around the call up). And £70k will be a huge percentage of his current salary.

Russell is after a big money deal. And again £70k will represent a reasonable (third?) percentage of his yearly wage.

I don't think I've read of anyone criticising Russell and Dell, or indeed the four Welshmen, for going when asked. It is the ludicrous decision by Gatland to take them, then subsequently not use them that is being criticised.
Personally, I would obviously have preferred Finn to be in Fiji, but I can't help thinking that the loss, and the nature of the loss, may actually help us in the long term by perhaps preventing Toony from getting carried away with himself. Although there is clearly a downside in terms of confidence..

Not saying people have criticised. There have been plenty musing they wish Finn had told Gatland to Foxtrot Oscar though.

[Stones of granite]

The other thing to consider from Dell and Russells POV is the purely the money side of it. Yes people will say they could have been playing for Scotland blah blah blah but anyone hoping they would turn down the Lions and £70k to play one game in Fiji is bonkers. Never mind that the Lions will be something Russell probably have wanted to be involved in since he was wee, £70k to any player based in Scotland is a huge chunk of money in a short career. It's nearly 20% of Hoggs new deal and he is by far the top paid player is Scotland.

Dell has a new contract as an international and you can bet the agent will have mentioned the Lions (despite the nature around the call up). And £70k will be a huge percentage of his current salary.

Russell is after a big money deal. And again £70k will represent a reasonable (third?) percentage of his yearly wage.

I don't think I've read of anyone criticising Russell and Dell, or indeed the four Welshmen, for going when asked. It is the ludicrous decision by Gatland to take them, then subsequently not use them that is being criticised.
Personally, I would obviously have preferred Finn to be in Fiji, but I can't help thinking that the loss, and the nature of the loss, may actually help us in the long term by perhaps preventing Toony from getting carried away with himself. Although there is clearly a downside in terms of confidence..

Not saying people have criticised. There have been plenty musing they wish Finn had told Gatland to Foxtrot Oscar though.

Of course they do. I do too, but I don't see it as a realistic expectation, and you nicely covered the main reasons why. Who's gonna turn down the chance of a crack at a Lions place? Even if there are 3 fly-halfs in front of him, there could always be an outbreak of food poisoning or something.

[whatisthejava]

Im still amazed that Gatland fell into this trap, i think the guy is a weasel but his handling of the situation and the entire lions debackle has been abysmal

From a welsh point of view - he took 12 welsh , then added 4 and most of the welsh guys are not good enough to play in the lions team , that wont help him come Autumn when he is back and most of his players know he didnt pick them

From a rest of britain, he has completly pissed off the english by selecting the welsh and scots guys, they saw it as a coronation for Lunchbox and Ford

From a scotland pov - we think he is an arse

From the lions pov - he has pissed off some well respected old guard with it

From the media - after the tour is done and the sycophants and patriots have calmed down people will look back at this tour as a real chance to beat the all blacks, especially with Scotland, England and Ireland all trying to play play a more open game people will wonder what would have been if we had Jones/ Toonie/Schmitt as coaches and not Gatland/Howley/Arsehole1/Arsehole2/Arsehole3

I think its time the lions need to actually change things up for the modern times, I just dont know what the changes are

Stewart

[Big D]

Im still amazed that Gatland fell into this trap, i think the guy is a weasel but his handling of the situation and the entire lions debackle has been abysmal

From a welsh point of view - he took 12 welsh , then added 4 and most of the welsh guys are not good enough to play in the lions team , that wont help him come Autumn when he is back and most of his players know he didnt pick them

From a rest of britain, he has completly pissed off the english by selecting the welsh and scots guys, they saw it as a coronation for Lunchbox and Ford

From a scotland pov - we think he is an arse

From the lions pov - he has pissed off some well respected old guard with it

From the media - after the tour is done and the sycophants and patriots have calmed down people will look back at this tour as a real chance to beat the all blacks, especially with Scotland, England and Ireland all trying to play play a more open game people will wonder what would have been if we had Jones/ Toonie/Schmitt as coaches and not Gatland/Howley/Arsehole1/Arsehole2/Arsehole3

I think its time the lions need to actually change things up for the modern times, I just dont know what the changes are

Stewart

If it wasn't for the tradition and money making aspect, I would say 30 man squad, 3 warm up matches and 3 test matches. But the Lions tour is meant to be more.

The next head coach absolutely needs to be someone outwith the 4 national HC's, someone who can actually go in to national training sessions and see what they are doing and how each team and players tick. His assistants can be from each national set up but the HC shouldn't be someone currently employed by any of them.

[Chunks Baws]

Im still amazed that Gatland fell into this trap, i think the guy is a weasel but his handling of the situation and the entire lions debackle has been abysmal

From a welsh point of view - he took 12 welsh , then added 4 and most of the welsh guys are not good enough to play in the lions team , that wont help him come Autumn when he is back and most of his players know he didnt pick them

From a rest of britain, he has completly pissed off the englishby selecting the welsh and scots guys, they saw it as a coronation for Lunchbox and Ford

From a scotland pov - we think he is an arse

From the lions pov - he has pissed off some well respected old guard with it

From the media - after the tour is done and the sycophants and patriots have calmed down people will look back at this tour as a real chance to beat the all blacks, especially with Scotland, England and Ireland all trying to play play a more open game people will wonder what would have been if we had Jones/ Toonie/Schmitt as coaches and not Gatland/Howley/Arsehole1/Arsehole2/Arsehole3

I think its time the lions need to actually change things up for the modern times, I just dont know what the changes are

Stewart

I don't think the Irish are that happy with him either.

[Big D]

Russell and Dell will be heading home later this week. So no injuries and £70k better off. Not a bad 10 days or so work.

[whatisthejava]

The next head coach absolutely needs to be someone outwith the 4 national HC's, someone who can actually go in to national training sessions and see what they are doing and how each team and players tick. His assistants can be from each national set up but the HC shouldn't be someone currently employed by any of them.

Im not sure i agree with this, but the HC has to be impartial, gatland was never impartial , never pretended to be and from what i read was fairly lazy , describing the year he was employed as basically one corporate dinner after another.

I just dont think Gatland has the work ethic or the OCD required to be a lions coach


The OCD coaches i think around are

Jones, Toonie, Baxter,

I

[Big D]

The next head coach absolutely needs to be someone outwith the 4 national HC's, someone who can actually go in to national training sessions and see what they are doing and how each team and players tick. His assistants can be from each national set up but the HC shouldn't be someone currently employed by any of them.

Im not sure i agree with this, but the HC has to be impartial, gatland was never impartial , never pretended to be and from what i read was fairly lazy , describing the year he was employed as basically one corporate dinner after another.

I just dont think Gatland has the work ethic or the OCD required to be a lions coach


The OCD coaches i think around are

Jones, Toonie, Baxter,

I

Especially since the Lions board made the decision that Lions coach is a year long employment/secondment I think it does. It's nonsense to ask a nation to give up its coach for a year. Of course it also needs to be someone willing to put in the hard graft.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Why does it even have to be a national coach?

[Banquo]

Why does it even have to be a national coach?

Carwyn James being a great example, albeit a long time ago. It would certainly diminish the cries of bias.

[Big D]

Woodward and McGeechan (last 2 times) weren't national head coaches at the time. In 97 Geech was Northampton coach IIRC.

[Croft_No.5]

Agree with Big D, a coach outside of any of the national set ups. How long is Big Vern's contract at Montpellier for?

[Edinburgh in Exile]

Am I reading it right that now Gatland is saying the reason he didn't use the bench was because of the shit fit that everyone threw after the last call ups?

Fair enough Warren, I guess it's everyone else's fault then.

What a fanny that man is.

[af73]

From a welsh point of view - he took 12 welsh , then added 4 and most of the welsh guys are not good enough to play in the lions team , that wont help him come Autumn when he is back and most of his players know he didnt pick them

On past tours Scottish players (back when we were involved) said they came back from a month alongside their home nations rivals and realised they weren't as bad as the Scottish cringe had convinced them. Indeed Grand Slams followed the 1983 and 1989 Lions tours.

Now, here's the conspiracy part

The Welsh head coach and Welsh assistant coach have loaded the Lions tour with countrymen who have been struggling for form and 4 "stars of the future" along for development. Were they, per chance, hoping to have 16 rejuvenated players ready for next season?

Identifying Scotland's key player then fannying around with his playing time on the Lions tour was reckoned to play a part in Hogg's dip in 2013 so repeat the dose with Russell.