Should Georgia & Romania be added to the 6 Nations?

[Son of Mathonwy]

The 6N isn't going to stop being the primary rugby tournament in Europe if the 6th placed team changes. Though tbh I don't watch it as it's the primary tournament, I watch it 'cause its the event England play in

If the 6N remains closed on the basis that the team below aren't up to scratch, then to a degree fair enough providing the remainder of the fixture list and by extension revenue sharing becomes much more equitable. And then we can revisit the 6N question every 5 years as to whether it should include other sides.

And it's not just about sharing monies from the 6N with the clubs, though I'd guess it would come down to that, to get the release in place for a play-ff, it's that the test scene has continually expanded leaving less space for the club sides.

It's not going to completely cease to be the premier competition, but its credibility as such will be dented if there's a team in it that gets hammered in every match. Not to mention that the ENC Level 1 will look silly if a team there hammers all the rest. And this is a predictable, bi-annual situation.

Why do we need to revisit the question every five years? And what are the chances this will actually happen in any official way? All it takes is a single match every year, and the question is very efficiently dealt with. Not only will a genuine shift in the positions of (say) Italy and Georgia be immediately rewarded/punished, but progress* to this point will be visible to everyone.

It's a tiny expansion, only likely to affect Italian and Georgian players. Either, the teams affected will be compensated, or (say in the case of Treviso), I imagine the relevant league would postpone their match for that week - something that (say) the Pro14 can cope with.



* or regression, if you are Italian...

[rowan]

I can't think of any other competition where you would have a team playing in a lower division than a team it would easily beat head-to-head simply because of an automatic promotion-relegation system. This isn't soccer. You'd create exactly the kind of problems Super Rugby has endured over the past couple of years - declining interest and loss of credibility. The door needs to be opened, yes, but not to the extent of allowing a vastly inferior team to gate-crash the party.

[Digby]

It's not going to completely cease? what the bleep? What is there to remotely stand comparison? Maybe, just maybe the big Euro club comp if that were on FTA, but even then I doubt it. Also presently I suspect everyone expects to beat Italy, so what would the change be if there was just another team everyone expected to beat.

And the 5 years review is only in the event the 6N isn't opened up, but the fixture list is amended, and then there's a regular review to consider in light of results Vs tier 1 sides if there's a case to open the 6N.

I do get people are happy to say lets just add another fixture into a week that's presently clear of test matches. I don't like to see that process extended, since the game went pro/established the WC we've added into the season the WC itself, and extra 5N team/game to make it the 6N, the tri-nations and then an extra team to make that the RC, we've added in more and more AI/Summer tour games. That the test side of the does that, and then declares it a regulation the club side of the game must release players into an ever expanding test format doesn't come without people wanting a fight.

Though I'd happily accept a 6N playoff/qualifier if we can scrap the Lions jamboree to free up some time/games. The other way to go is if what people are worried about in having sub standard 6N games is simply to kick Italy out and go back to a 5N, but that's awfully regressive

[Digby]

I can't think of any other competition where you would have a team playing in a lower division than a team it would easily beat head-to-head simply because of an automatic promotion-relegation system

You've not heard of the AP or T14? they'd often meet just that criteria, and far from losing credibility they're the leading domestic leagues in the world

[rowan]

That's club competition. & on what basis do you claim they are the leading championships in the world? Super Rugby averages larger crowds and the standard is higher. Anyway, what examples to do you have of teams replacing others who are substantially superior to them, what sort of scores did that result in, and how did it effect crowd figures? I'm only asking because I don't follow either of them at all (although I did hear talk of Zebre withdrawing). But I do follow Super Rugby, where the addition of weak teams has undermined the entire shabang - as everyone can see quite clearly.

Your entire argument against a promotion-relegation match, which would virtually eliminate such dire consequences for the 6 Nations, is your insistence no room could be found for it; or at least not without a great deal of inconvenience. But it has been demonstrated to you time and again that the inconvenience would be relatively minimal, and time could most certainly be found for it regardless whether there were any 'inconvenience' to clubs or not.

To be honest, I don't think you thought this through properly to begin with, and now you are simply clinging to an argument which doesn't hold water, rather than concede that it was an ill-conceived notion to begin with. You know as well as we do that automatic promotion-relegation at this point would turn both the 6 Nations and ENC first divisions into a farce. All it would take to prevent that would be one fixture involving one 6 Nations team and one ENC team. The lower ENC divisions have already found time for this - with the greatest of ease.

[rowan]

Well said.

Just in reference to your footnote, I have raised before the possibility of either a European or NH championships being held quadrennially in a tournament format. slotting in between World Cups (as of 2021, for example).

The European model could involve two groups of four, leading to semis and a final. Obviously these would be the 6 Nations plus top two ENC teams (the latter competition thereby serving as a qualification tournament). Remember, the football Euros was an eight-team tournament right up until the late 1990s - and now its expanded to 24! This would require 2 to 3 weeks to complete and be the perfect kind of event for Italy, Georgia or Romania to host on their own, or even one of the Celtic nations, for example.

The NH alternative could involve 4 groups of 3 lading to semis and a final. These could be the 6 Nations plus two teams apiece from North America, Asia and the ENC. Aside from the above-mentioned European nations, the US and Canada would obviously be ideal candidates to host such a compact event.

This would of course be an alternative to linking the 6 Nations and ENC through a solitary promotion-relegation fixture. I actually think the latter (promotion-relegation) idea is the better one, and certainly far simpler, as it would place rugby in the somewhat unique position of having an all-encompassing annual international European championship - something not even football has. Everything is already in place. One addition to the fixture list is all that's required. This is how it could have looked in 2018:

European Championship P W Pts
England 0 0 0
France 0 0 0
Wales 0 0 0
Ireland 0 0 0
Scotland 0 0 0
Italy 0 0 0

European Trophy (2nd division) P W Pts
Romania 0 0 0
Georgia 0 0 0
Spain 0 0 0
Russia 0 0 0
Germany 0 0 0
Belgium 0 0 0

European Shield (3rd division) P W Pts
Portugal 0 0 0
Netherlands 0 0 0
Switzerland 0 0 0
Poland 0 0 0
Moldova 0 0 0
Czech Republic 0 0 0

Conference 1 North (4th division north) P W Pts
Ukraine 0 0 0
Lithuania 0 0 0
Latvia 0 0 0
Sweden 0 0 0
Hungary 0 0 0

Conference South (4th division south) 1 P W Pts
Malta 0 0 0
Israel 0 0 0
Croatia 0 0 0
Andorra 0 0 0
Bosnia and Herzegovina 0 0 0

Conference 2 North (5th division north) P W Pts
Luxembourg 0 0 0
Denmark 0 0 0
Norway 0 0 0
Finland 0 0 0
Estonia 0 0 0

Conference 2 South (5th division south) P W Pts
Cyprus 0 0 0
Austria 0 0 0
Slovenia 0 0 0
Serbia 0 0 0
Slovakia 0 0 0

Development (6th division) P W Pts
Turkey ↓ 0 0 0 (are they back)?
Montenegro 0 0 0
Bulgaria 0 0 0

Over 40 countries involved Sweet !

[Digby]

AP and T14 are the leading domestic leagues, at least in terms of how I'd think about that. Soup Rugby is excellent, and if someone wanted to contend it's the leading event then whatever, but both it and the Pro 14 have an international element, and I only noted AP and T14 as being the leading domestic leagues

[rowan]

Well, if you're talking about personal preference, I personally find European club rugby sleep-inducing. & Super Rugby does have better attendances, but it probably not nearly as profitable due to the extensive travel requirements.

[Son of Mathonwy]

It's not going to completely cease? what the bleep? What is there to remotely stand comparison? Maybe, just maybe the big Euro club comp if that were on FTA, but even then I doubt it.

Fair point. Let me clarify - "premier" is a bit vague. The word I should have used was "optimal" - the best it can be. This is what we should all want the 6N to be. Sure, a 6N of ENG/FRA/IRE/WAL/SCO/ROM would still be the best competition in Europe, but it wouldn't be the best it could be.

Also presently I suspect everyone expects to beat Italy, so what would the change be if there was just another team everyone expected to beat.

1) Italy usually gives the other teams a decent game. Sure they almost always lose, but cricket scores are the exception these days. I have my doubts that Romania would be so competitive - the fixture (ie 33% of the matches in the 6N) could become a joke.

2) The change would be that we wouldn't be relying on a decision made 20 years ago to determine the composition of the 6N. And it would be massively encouraging for ambitious nations - any one of GEO/ROM/RUS/GER/SPA/BEL could reasonably hope to beat Italy if they gave rugby union sufficient attention. But as it is, they know there's no point - the 6N is a closed shop.

And the 5 years review is only in the event the 6N isn't opened up, but the fixture list is amended, and then there's a regular review to consider in light of results Vs tier 1 sides if there's a case to open the 6N.

I don't have much confidence in that kind of decision made behind closed doors.

I do get people are happy to say lets just add another fixture into a week that's presently clear of test matches. I don't like to see that process extended, since the game went pro/established the WC we've added into the season the WC itself, and extra 5N team/game to make it the 6N, the tri-nations and then an extra team to make that the RC, we've added in more and more AI/Summer tour games. That the test side of the does that, and then declares it a regulation the club side of the game must release players into an ever expanding test format doesn't come without people wanting a fight.

Though I'd happily accept a 6N playoff/qualifier if we can scrap the Lions jamboree to free up some time/games. The other way to go is if what people are worried about in having sub standard 6N games is simply to kick Italy out and go back to a 5N, but that's awfully regressive

But that would be an arbitrary decision which would still leave the 6N/5N a closed shop.

[rowan]

1) Italy usually gives the other teams a decent game. Sure they almost always lose, but cricket scores are the exception these days. I have my doubts that Romania would be so competitive - the fixture (ie 33% of the matches in the 6N) could become a joke.


Italy has in fact won a dozen games and avoided the wooden spoon on half a dozen occasions since becoming involved. It has beaten allcomers bar England, and also won away from home. It has maintained a 13.3% success rate and average 14 - 31 average scoreline.

Romania hasn't beaten a 5/6 Nations team since the amateur era, and has been hammered off the park many times since then, including one 0-134 reversal against England. It lost to three 6 Nations teams at the last World Cup, in fact; including 10-44 to Ireland and 12-38 to France - despite both of those teams being crashing out in the first round of playoffs.

Georgia has never beaten a 6 Nations team, despite all of its promise and improvement, and was in fact comfortably beaten by both the Irish and Italian emerging teams just two years ago. Its last test matches against 6 Nations opponents resulted in a 16-43 loss to Scotland two years ago and 7-49 defeat to Ireland two years before that.

[rowan]

I actually think the latter (promotion-relegation) idea is the better one, and certainly far simpler, as it would place rugby in the somewhat unique position of having an all-encompassing annual international European championship - something not even football has. Everything is already in place. One addition to the fixture list is all that's required. This is how it could have looked in 2018:

European Championship P W Pts
England 0 0 0
France 0 0 0
Wales 0 0 0
Ireland 0 0 0
Scotland 0 0 0
Italy 0 0 0

European Trophy (2nd division) P W Pts
Romania 0 0 0
Georgia 0 0 0
Spain 0 0 0
Russia 0 0 0
Germany 0 0 0
Belgium 0 0 0

European Shield (3rd division) P W Pts
Portugal 0 0 0
Netherlands 0 0 0
Switzerland 0 0 0
Poland 0 0 0
Moldova 0 0 0
Czech Republic 0 0 0

Conference 1 North (4th division north) P W Pts
Ukraine 0 0 0
Lithuania 0 0 0
Latvia 0 0 0
Sweden 0 0 0
Hungary 0 0 0

Conference South (4th division south) 1 P W Pts
Malta 0 0 0
Israel 0 0 0
Croatia 0 0 0
Andorra 0 0 0
Bosnia and Herzegovina 0 0 0

Conference 2 North (5th division north) P W Pts
Luxembourg 0 0 0
Denmark 0 0 0
Norway 0 0 0
Finland 0 0 0
Estonia 0 0 0

Conference 2 South (5th division south) P W Pts
Cyprus 0 0 0
Austria 0 0 0
Slovenia 0 0 0
Serbia 0 0 0
Slovakia 0 0 0

Development (6th division) P W Pts
Turkey ↓ 0 0 0 (are they back)?
Montenegro 0 0 0
Bulgaria 0 0 0

Over 40 countries involved Sweet !

This annual pan-European championship would not only be the envy of other European sports, including football, it would be the envy of international rugby competition around the world as well, notably in the game's traditional Southern Hemisphere stronghold. The challenge would thus be there for the likes of NZ, SA, Australia & Argentina to come up with something similar. Rather than multiple divisions, they could simply go with the 3 extant regional tournaments (Africa Cup, PNC and SAmerica A chamionship) and allow the winners to playoff for the right to challenge the bottom RC team for a spot in the Big League. Again, I would advocate home advantage to the incumbent, thereby ensuring the highest standards are maintained.

[rowan]

Romania:

Super Liga season kicked off this week-end with three matches.

Biggest match was the eternal derby , Steaua 27 - 19 Dinamo. (will update with highlights later).
match stats:
https://www.super-liga.ro/informatii-meci/?im=4373

To be noted that soccer fans stayed away of this match and we didn't see any incidents compared with last year.

The match was quite balanced and although Dinamo seriously strengthen the team this year Steaua was simply better, not by a very elaborate game but because of their players. Tudorel Bratu scored two tries for Dinamo which is encouraging for Oaks scrum-half after a mediocre last season but he missed few kicks. Boldor scored a very nice try after the break when he spotted a big gap in Dinamo's defense.

In last minutes, after Steaua was sanctioned with two yellows (Robert Neagu, Ionut Dumitru), Dinamo scored another try but they couldn't close the gap.

Some of Dinamo's new players are:
Ekuasi Tevita, Tonga, Eightman
Divan Ferrguson, SA, center
Merab Matavka, Georgia, hooker
Gerald Sibanda, Zimbabwe, wing (Zimbabwe Sevens)
Albert Stiopei, ex. RO U20, back from Italy, wing/fullback
Ovidiu Sarbe, from Timisoara academy, fly-half
Adrian Ionut Chiper, U Cluj, prop
Marcel Rusu, lock, Timisoara academy


Steaua's new signings:
Ionut Dumbrava, Steaua ex-fly-half who played his entire career there is the new coach of the team.
Soana Marian, ex. CSM Bucuresti/RO U20, lock
Pasalan Andrei, RO U18/Steaua Academy, backrow
Ika Tuihakavalu, Tonga, center
Melecciu Ionut, ex-Iasi/RO U20, hooker

CSM Stiinta Baia Mare 59 - 5 Universitatea Cluj
match stats:
https://www.super-liga.ro/informatii-meci/?im=4369

Little to say about this match, it was an expected easy win of the hosts. U Cluj is not in a good shape, they managed to find the money for this season SL after they lost one of the main sponsors last season but the team is filled with academy players who didn't even finished their junior career so they're expected to be the main "favorite" for last spot. 3 tries were scored in last 15 minutes so at least Cluj tried to contain the score as much as possible.

New signings from CSM Baia Mare are listed in a post above and U Cluj promoted players from academy, 12 players born in 1998 and 2 in 1997 and one new player probably from CS Manastur (2nd division), a French lock, Vincent Loitier.

CSM Bucuresti 22 - 22 Poli Iasi
full match:
https://www.privesc.eu/arhiva/77615
selection of most important phases:
https://www.facebook.com/mona.monyk/vid ... 527858478/
match stats:
https://www.super-liga.ro/informatii-meci/?im=4371

No doubt, this is the surprise of the round. After the participation was in tatters because of financing and coach Sava and many players left from Iasi, the students from Iasi start with a blast and nearly won away versus one team that it is considered to be a contender.

It was also an entertaining match to watch. CSM started well and they scored a try trough Hinckley Vaovasa and than Iasi tighthead Matase was sin binned. Plai kept the team in game by scoring two penalties however CSM scored a penalty try and become obvious that Iasi's pack, especially the frontrow will have a hard day at the office. Ex. U20 wing Iliuta who started from CSM scored a try which was disallowed due to touching the line. All looked in control for hosts but before the end of the first half, Plai scored a try, converted the points and than scored a drop goal thus reducing the difference to 1 pts.

Must say that Iasi bench was filled with very young players so their options were quite limited and it was obvious that the key of the match will be how the pack will resist, especially in scrums, because lineout and breakdown seemed to be an issue for CSM and not for the visitors. Although CSM scored another try (Carpo) following a lineout near opposition 22, Vaovasa failed to score the two points and Iasi come back trough Plai who scored two more penalties (2 from 5) . In the last minute, veteran captain of Iasi, openside Drusca was about to score a try but he was touched down over the try line after his legs were out of the field of play so the try was disallowed. Man of the match is certainly Plai who kept the team in the game despite missing some points and personally I think the two veterans Bisoc (lock) and Drusca (openside, flanker) have a great contribution as the pack, although lacking some bench options managed to outplay CSM at the breakdown and in lineout. I also liked young loosehead Cretu, 19 yo player with good physical presence who played the entire match. Even if it was a draw it is a big result for the visitors and from their new head coach, Adrian Ratiu, at his first match (he is still listed as a player)

From CSM I liked young backrow Mario Arvinte and I didn't understand why he was subbed in second half. Generally Iasi played much faster and with ball in hand and I probably they would have been a play off team if they would have been able to keep their team from last season.

Iasi new signings:
Colev Alexandru, prop, Rep. of Moldova
Matase George, prop (RC Barlad, second division)
Cretu Andrei, prop (Tomitanii), 19 yo player who was impressive at his debut in SL
Panzaru Mihnea, lock (Timisoara academy)
and a bunch of junior players (born 1999), some of them coming from the bench at the end of the game.

CSM new signings:
Eugen Apjock, ex. CSM Stiinta Baia Mare, head coach
Lasha Tavartkiladze, forwards coach, Georgia
Lasha Azaladze, Georgia, lock
Omar Baliashvili, Georgia, prop
Vasile Balan, prop, ex. Poli Iasi
Nigel Genia, scrum-half, Australia (he also played one season for Baia Mare)
Iulian Hartig, prop, RO U20, ex. Baia Mare
Alexandru Oancea, hooker, ex. RC Grivita, Baia Mare, debuted for Oaks in 2015 but was out following a heavy injury, he come back last season in 3rd division and now is with CSM.
Paul Petucher, prop, ex. U Cluj
Marius Pocris, prop, ex. Baia Mare
Tuicakau Livinai, fullback, Fiji
Vaovasa Hinckley, fly-half, New Zealand
Winter Riley, lock, ex Perth Spirit, Australia U20.

Some news from National Seniors Division (second tier):

Bucovina Suceava will stay in this league for another season and won't promote in Super Liga as local authorities support was not certain.

Tomitanii signed two experimenced players:
Catalin Sasu, prop, ex. Poli Iasi, ex. Farul
Johnny Sola, center, ex. CSM Bucuresti

Friendly match:
Saracens 49 - 0 (35 - 0 at half time) Timisoara

Timisoara played a friendly match vs Europe's champions. The team fielded was rather experimental with some academy players and Rupanu (ex. U20 scrum-half) had a good game but Simionescu (FB, ex. U20) was kind of a liability in defense as he fumbled most of the long kicks.

[Digby]

I had wondered how Rowan found the time to write pages and pages of this stuff, but seeing as I recognise the writing in the piece just posted I now realise it's merely being copied and posted from somewhere else on t'interweb.

I actually tried to watch some of that Saracens Vs Timisoara match but the video quality was appalling, so other than being able to say I saw a left footed 9 box kick the ball for Sarries there's nothing I can add to any of the games not having seen any of them.

[rowan]

That's what I do on the General Rugby Forum, Digby; try to keep everybody updated on rugby beyond the established frontiers by bringing to light anything which may be of interest. If the source is an official web site, I invariably post the link, as you'll notice, and often Italicize the content to further clarify it's not my own work. But in this instance the source was not an official web site, and had probably been gleaned by the 'author' in the same manner and for precisely the same purpose - information sharing for the readers' benefit.

No need to thank me.

[Digby]

I don't know where you copied it from, so I wouldn't know if it's already been copied. But I know I recognise the writing, meaning author.

And I wouldn't notice you invariably post a link as mostly I wouldn't see your posts.

[rowan]

Seems like stupid and juvenile comments are in vogue on this forum . . .

Anyway, for those who are actually interested in rugby beyond the established frontiers, I hope you were enlightened by the update, because that's the point. I struggle to comprehend what's going on in the minds of some forum members who accuse others of stealing their updates, when the whole point is to spread the gospel - not copyright your own contributions as if they were works of art or something. That's only about ego

[Digby]

I don't know where the sudden lurch to setting up Georgia and Romania with games at u20s has come from. It's not maybe a bad idea in the longer term, and it should suit Georgia right now, but Romania have given very little time to the u20s group, it's basically all club based in that age group, so for now at least they'd be punching well below their weight in the u20s.

Romania appoint a new u20s coach, so they have moved to develop a stronger central effort, which I suppose they had to

[rowan]

Indeed. Fergus Pringle, formerly of Boroughmuir, I believe, and backed up by Dinamo head coach Christian Hildan.

[Mellsblue]

Is it obligatory to quote your own posts in this thread?

[Mellsblue]

Is it obligatory to quote your own posts in this thread?

I said, is it obligatory to quote your own posts in this thread?

[Digby]

I don't know where the sudden lurch to setting up Georgia and Romania with games at u20s has come from. It's not maybe a bad idea in the longer term, and it should suit Georgia right now, but Romania have given very little time to the u20s group, it's basically all club based in that age group, so for now at least they'd be punching well below their weight in the u20s.

Romania appoint a new u20s coach, so they have moved to develop a stronger central effort, which I suppose they had to

For Mell's benefit I'll mention I would have added the name, but they haven't actually officially confirmed it yet.

[Mellsblue]

Is it obligatory to quote your own posts in this thread?

I said, is it obligatory to quote your own posts in this thread?

I'll take that as a yes.

[rowan]

Korea will tour Georgia & Romania in November

http://www.asierugby.net/la-coree-du-su ... n-nove.php

[Digby]

I don't know where the sudden lurch to setting up Georgia and Romania with games at u20s has come from. It's not maybe a bad idea in the longer term, and it should suit Georgia right now, but Romania have given very little time to the u20s group, it's basically all club based in that age group, so for now at least they'd be punching well below their weight in the u20s.

Romania appoint a new u20s coach, so they have moved to develop a stronger central effort, which I suppose they had to

For Mell's benefit I'll mention I would have added the name, but they haven't actually officially confirmed it yet.

Romania and Georgia will both I'm sure be thrilled to be playing South Korea, simply thrilled

[rowan]

Strange decision, for sure. I'm not sure who's funding the Korean adventures, but last year they had that magnificent comeback win over Chile to level the series in Santiago. I would've thought Germany and Spain would've been better opponents for them in Europe, but I guess they're out to learn. Obviously Hong Kong would have been a more suitable opponent for the likes of Georgia and Romania, though probably still a litte out of their league.

Not sure why you included quotes from yourself on an entirely separate matter either.