No doubt it's has some dark themes, but then so does a lot of art. And simply put I struggle to consider in a sensible society that pulling down a statue that's going to be around a hundred years old and was a significant piece of art commissioned at the time is an especially positive way to move forward. And really if you take down a statue you're not going to move a debate forward, you're just going to start a discussion about the next piece of art, and as above at some point you're just signing off on the destruction of Palmyra, or for a new example you'd be supporting the burning of books that people don't like.morepork wrote:Mussolini was shot and his corpse strung up in Milan. Again, the Lee statue is a beacon for racism if it is placed in a prominent public space in a confederate state, it's a piss take. Up until a little over a year ago, Columbia South Carolina had a confederate flag outside City Hall. A massive one. I've seen it in person. That is one in your face institutionalised "fuck you". It's not there for historical reasons. Forget your academic treatment of the causes of the civil war and your sliding scale of time Vs. racism. This issue is about the period 1965-now, which some people in some places are very upset about. There are two excellent historical museums in Philadelphia, The National Independence Center, with all constitutional and independence history, and an African American History Museum, which deals with the ugly shit following. If you suggested putting a Robert E. Lee statue anywhere in Philly but one of these museums, I can assure you the reaction would be overwhelmingly..."negative", and even then good luck getting it through the doors of the other two places.Sandydragon wrote:Lets not confuse the valid point about airbrushing history we don't like with the means of protest. I completely agree that the manner of this protest was obscene, both from the anti-semitism on display and the threatening nature of groups of people armed with automatic weapons protesting against a decision by a legitimate authority.cashead wrote: When one side is made up of people literally brandishing firearms while waving Nazis and chanting "the Jews will not replace us," and trying to defend a statue of a racist icon, then no, that's not fine.
But one of the statues in question was that of Robert E Lee. As one of the the prominent Confederate generals of the civil war, I understand why he is seen as a racist symbol, but does that make him any different from other key figures of that period? Was Lee any more of a racist (as we understand it today) than other public figures of the day? Do we tear down all statues of prominent people from history just because they are a symbol to a racist today?
On one level, particularly initially, the American Civil War wasn't about the plight of the slaves. Plenty of Southerners fought for the Confederacy who didn't own slaves. Were they racist, by today's standard white probably, but any more so than many of those who fought for the Union. Its a bit like suggesting that all Italians who fought in World War 2 were Fascists to the core, other than people who volunteered to defend, or were conscripted, their country. Lee was a loyal Virginian who only resigned rom the US Army when Virginia voted to secede from the Union, which was post Fort Sumter whereas originally the state was opposed to secession. Lee saw himself as a loyal Virginian, less so a Confederate. To have a statue for a man who fought for his country is no bad thing; surely the better solution is to focus on the nature of slavery via education and not airbrush the bits of the past we don't like?
I mayn't know much about Robert Lee, not really much more than he's not the one who played for Newcastle, but just as I mayn't admire him based on the little I know I'm wary in advance of accepting that which some people mayn't like can simply be taken down and removed, it's part of the history, our history is all our experiences, and if they take this down at what point do they land on a piece of art I do care about?
I can't say Trumps stance on art sounds laudable though, he protests this one after how many sites has he had trashed putting up his various business ventures?