England squad named

[fivepointer]

Eddie Jones has named his England squad to begin their preparations for the opening match of the Old Mutual Wealth series against Argentina.

England will play Argentina on 11 November at Twickenham Stadium - kick off 3pm live on Sky Sports - before facing Australia (18 November) and Samoa (25 November).

34 players will convene on Sunday (29 October) to travel to Portugal for a training camp before the squad assemble at Pennyhill Park on Sunday (5 November) ahead of the Argentina match.

This will be England’s fourth Test against the Pumas in the last year having beaten them in last season’s Old Mutual Wealth Series and twice on the tour of Argentina in June."We want to make sure our record against them is 4-0."

“Our first match against Argentina in the Old Mutual Wealth Series is a significant game for England and everything we have been doing in our training camps so far this season has been geared around getting the detail right in our preparation on how we want to play and win against them next month," said head coach Jones.

“This will be the fourth time we have played against Argentina in the last 12 months and the last time we play them before 2019, so we want to make sure our record against them is 4-0.”

Exeter Chiefs’ Sam Simmonds receives his first call up into the England squad. The 22 year-old has made 27 appearances for his club, scoring 13 tries and was a key member of the side that won the Premiership title last season.

Jones has also included 18 year-old Marcus Smith (Harlequins) and 20 year-old Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) as apprentices in the England squad. Both players won’t be named in match day squads but will be involved in England’s training and preparation for the three-match series.

Backs

Full backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs

Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins) *, Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five

Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *, Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby).

Front row

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

*Apprentice players

Players unavailable due to injury or suspension

Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

[Mikey Brown]

Anyone else concerned we don't have enough 10/12 cover?

[Scrumhead]

Harsh on Armand and Wilson IMO.

Unpopular as it may be, I’d also have had Yarde (on recent form) over Solomona.

[Puja]

{Mod}Have split this as I think it deserves its own thread{/Mod}

On the bright side, no Haskell, no Wood. Good news there.

Puja

[Stom]

Well, that's interesting...

If we break it down by position, we see some interesting things...

Mako, Genge, Mullan
Hartley, George, Dunn
Cole, Williams
Itoje, Launchbury, Isiekwe
Kruis, Lawes, Ewels
Robshaw
Underhill, Curry
Hughes, Simmonds
Youngs, Care
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Francis

No IC
Joseph, Slade

May, Daly, Solomona
Watson, Brown

So who goes where?

I imagine we'll see:

Mako
George
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes
Youngs
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Daly
Watson

Hartley, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Simmonds, Care, Slade, Solomona

[Raggs]

Harsh on Armand and Wilson IMO.

Unpopular as it may be, I’d also have had Yarde (on recent form) over Solomona.

Recent form is not attending the captains run, and then seemingly not taking his punishment by not turning up to the a-league game he was supposed to play in, either.

EDIT - 19. Launch 20. Lawes I suspect.

[Which Tyler]

Errr. OK - I'll translate that list again:

1. Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge, Matt Mullan
2. Jamie George, Dylan Hartley, Tom Dunn
3. Dan Cole, Harry Williams
4. Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury, Charlie Ewels
5. George Kruis, Nick Isiekwe
6. Chris Robshaw
7. Tom Curry, Sam Underhill
8. Nathan Hughes, Sam Simmonds, (Zach Mercer)

9. Ben Youngs, Danny Care
10. George Ford, Alex Lozowski, (Marcus Smith)
12. Owen Farrell, Piers Francis
13. Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade
11./14. Elliot Daly, Jonny May, Denny Solomona
15. Mike Brown, Anthony Watson

[Puja]

Harsh on Armand and Wilson IMO.

Unpopular as it may be, I’d also have had Yarde (on recent form) over Solomona.

I agree with you on Yarde being unlucky to miss out on form. However, much as I dislike Solomona, he has shown enough in attack this season to suggest that he could be a top-level winger. Moving aside my disdain, he's probably more worthy of development than Yarde, who showed the same old flaws in Argentina over the summer.

Wilson is the most unlucky, in my opinion. Did everything that was asked of him in the summer, has carried superb form into the season with Newcastle and not even in the squad.

Well, that's interesting...

If we break it down by position, we see some interesting things...

Mako, Genge, Mullan
Hartley, George, Dunn
Cole, Williams
Itoje, Launchbury, Isiekwe
Kruis, Lawes, Ewels
Robshaw
Underhill, Curry
Hughes, Simmonds
Youngs, Care
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Francis

No IC
Joseph, Slade

May, Daly, Solomona
Watson, Brown

So who goes where?

I imagine we'll see:

Mako
George
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes
Youngs
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Daly
Watson

Hartley, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Simmonds, Care, Slade, Solomona

I'm not sure it's going to be as clear cut as that - I fully expect us to play a different XV for each game. We'll see Lawes at 6, probably with Curry and maybe Simmonds, we'll also see Slade at 13 with... Hey, there's no Te'o! I knew he was injured, but I guess here's confirmation that he's definitely out of the series.

Well, at least we're still only having to put up with one ex-league mercenary at a time. That's not so bad.

Puja

[Puja]

Errr. OK - I'll translate that list again:

1. Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge, Matt Mullan
2. Jamie George, Dylan Hartley, Tom Dunn
3. Dan Cole, Harry Williams
4. Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury, Charlie Ewels
5. George Kruis, Nick Isiekwe
6. Chris Robshaw, Sam Simmonds
7. Tom Curry, Sam Underhill
8. Nathan Hughes, (Zach Mercer)

9. Ben Youngs, Danny Care
10. George Ford, Alex Lozowski, (Marcus Smith)
12. Owen Farrell, Piers Francis
13. Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade
11./14. Elliot Daly, Jonny May, Denny Solomona
15. Mike Brown, Anthony Watson

Sorry Which!

I'd've said Simmonds is more likely to be 8 cover, as I can't see Hughes playing all three games while all changes around him, and Lawes as a 6.

Puja

[TheNomad]

I'd say the following are unlucky:
Wilson
Armand
Marchant
Yarde - is Solomona really a better player? Potentially, sure, but not right now
Roko - as above

I'd say the following are lucky:
Francis - yet to be convinced personally
Ewels - still not totally convinced personally

I've probably missed a few from the above. Generally though it's a good squad

[Banquo]

Like the squad, other than having 6 locks which is OTT, compared with just 2 nines and 6 backrow. Teo being fit would have made the squad selection more telling.

[Which Tyler]

I'd've said Simmonds is more likely to be 8 cover, as I can't see Hughes playing all three games while all changes around him, and Lawes as a 6.

As discussed on t'other thread; I assigned Simmonds as a 6 because he can cover across the backrow - I was unaware that Mercer was training only; so having 1 6, 2 7s and 2 8s, I put the "utility" guy in at 6.

In terms of where Eddie sees them playing; I'd suggest Simmonds is seen as a 20, or possibly a 19 if we start with 3 locks.



In terms of my opinion on the squad itself...
Still no back-up scrum half! I thought this was idiocy when Burt insisted on this 4 years ago, and insanity when he went into the RWC without a 3rd choice SH even in the squad, let alone having ever actually played with those around him before. For Eddie to repeat this mistake is shaking my confidence in him.

Too many locks, too many 10/12s for my taste too (though I can understand both; keeping the young locks interested and involved; and that many 10/12s as that's simply who's available) but he could very easily have counted Isiekwe or Ewels as training-only, and allowed himself another 9; or culled one of Lozowski/Francis, knowing that Farrell and Slade can both cover exactly the same positions.
We're 1 pulled hammy away from calling up an untried, untrained SH to play in a test.

[Stom]

I think the locks are because he feels there are 6 locks of the standard, or close to the standard.

I think the same applies at 9. He only feels 2 players are at or close to the standard he requires, so he's not bothering with anyone else.

At 10/12, I think it's because there isn't anyone else jumping up and down to be selected. And put simply, who else is there who could play 12? Clark? While he's looked good so far, he's not looked a world beater...

[Puja]

In terms of my opinion on the squad itself...
Still no back-up scrum half! I thought this was idiocy when Burt insisted on this 4 years ago, and insanity when he went into the RWC without a 3rd choice SH even in the squad, let alone having ever actually played with those around him before. For Eddie to repeat this mistake is shaking my confidence in him.

The problem is who on earth does he call? Anyone who watched Robson play at the weekend and still wants him doesn't get to complain about Youngs's service anymore. Spencer is still very solidly and deservedly understudy at Sarries. Maunder is injured and barely playing anyway. Frankly, if there was an injury, then the next best EQP scrum half is Wigglesworth.

While I'm not thrilled about putting all our eggs in the Youngs/Care basket either, I can respect Eddie not wanting to call up dross just for the sake of having a third 9 in the squad.

Puja

[Banquo]

I think the locks are because he feels there are 6 locks of the standard, or close to the standard.

I think the same applies at 9. He only feels 2 players are at or close to the standard he requires, so he's not bothering with anyone else.

At 10/12, I think it's because there isn't anyone else jumping up and down to be selected. And put simply, who else is there who could play 12? Clark? While he's looked good so far, he's not looked a world beater...

I didn't mention 10/12, other than noting Teo being fit would have been interesting.

I don't get why he wouldn't want to have a look at other players, rather than an OTT lock capacity; though he may be trying to make sure Itoje and Lawes get a rest, I guess.

[Banquo]

In terms of my opinion on the squad itself...
Still no back-up scrum half! I thought this was idiocy when Burt insisted on this 4 years ago, and insanity when he went into the RWC without a 3rd choice SH even in the squad, let alone having ever actually played with those around him before. For Eddie to repeat this mistake is shaking my confidence in him.

The problem is who on earth does he call? Anyone who watched Robson play at the weekend and still wants him doesn't get to complain about Youngs's service anymore. Spencer is still very solidly and deservedly understudy at Sarries. Maunder is injured and barely playing anyway. Frankly, if there was an injury, then the next best EQP scrum half is Wigglesworth.

While I'm not thrilled about putting all our eggs in the Youngs/Care basket either, I can respect Eddie not wanting to call up dross just for the sake of having a third 9 in the squad.

Puja

...and wtf does he do, should either get injured in a bizarre twist of bad luck? I'm surprised he doesn't find an apprentice and work with them tbh.

[Puja]

In terms of my opinion on the squad itself...
Still no back-up scrum half! I thought this was idiocy when Burt insisted on this 4 years ago, and insanity when he went into the RWC without a 3rd choice SH even in the squad, let alone having ever actually played with those around him before. For Eddie to repeat this mistake is shaking my confidence in him.

The problem is who on earth does he call? Anyone who watched Robson play at the weekend and still wants him doesn't get to complain about Youngs's service anymore. Spencer is still very solidly and deservedly understudy at Sarries. Maunder is injured and barely playing anyway. Frankly, if there was an injury, then the next best EQP scrum half is Wigglesworth.

While I'm not thrilled about putting all our eggs in the Youngs/Care basket either, I can respect Eddie not wanting to call up dross just for the sake of having a third 9 in the squad.

Puja

...and wtf does he do, should either get injured in a bizarre twist of bad luck? I'm surprised he doesn't find an apprentice and work with them tbh.

Call up Wigglesworth? Sad as I am to admit it, that's probably what I'd do right now.

He did pick an apprentice over the summer in Maunder, but he's now injured. I don't know who else one could go for - it's not like we're flush with young 9s either. Townsend's not going to make it at the top level, nor will Braley. Maybe White, but that'd be picking a name out of a hat with no guarantee it wouldn't be wasted time.

Puja

[Banquo]

The problem is who on earth does he call? Anyone who watched Robson play at the weekend and still wants him doesn't get to complain about Youngs's service anymore. Spencer is still very solidly and deservedly understudy at Sarries. Maunder is injured and barely playing anyway. Frankly, if there was an injury, then the next best EQP scrum half is Wigglesworth.

While I'm not thrilled about putting all our eggs in the Youngs/Care basket either, I can respect Eddie not wanting to call up dross just for the sake of having a third 9 in the squad.

Puja

...and wtf does he do, should either get injured in a bizarre twist of bad luck? I'm surprised he doesn't find an apprentice and work with them tbh.

Call up Wigglesworth? Sad as I am to admit it, that's probably what I'd do right now.

He did pick an apprentice over the summer in Maunder, but he's now injured. I don't know who else one could go for - it's not like we're flush with young 9s either. Townsend's not going to make it at the top level, nor will Braley. Maybe White, but that'd be picking a name out of a hat with no guarantee it wouldn't be wasted time.

Puja

...but like I said, its hardly beyond the bounds of possibility that one or both get injured, so whether its veteran cover, work with Robson/Spencer to improve their skills, or take a punt, he needs to have something in place.

[Digby]

6 locks and 6 10s gives a sense the pack will not play at pace and the backs need to play with width. More to it than that, but in advance it doesn't look to have a natural balance.

[Which Tyler]

Were he fit, I'd have had Maunder there; but he isn't, so...
One of Wigglesworth or Spencer; the former is far more experienced, whilst the latter is (far) more talented. Neither has ever stood behind Hughes, or in front of Ford - even in training - let alone both at the same time.
If you "just" want an injury cover player who's actually trained with the squad and is broadly familiar with the systems - then Wigglesworth is your man.
If you want someone who could potentially be 1st choice in 2 years time, then Spencer is the better bet - the only thing he's really lacking is game-time and confidence IMO (he stayed 3rd choice for too long, behind 2 pretty indestructible players - Sarries don't get it wrong often, but they're also not infallible)

[Puja]

...but like I said, its hardly beyond the bounds of possibility that one or both get injured, so whether its veteran cover, work with Robson/Spencer to improve their skills, or take a punt, he needs to have something in place.

But neither of them are injured for these three games, so he probably feels it's better to send a message to those outside of the squad that they need to up their game if they want to get in.

He's done the same with the tightheads as well - no Collier (who has been shunt this season) despite that leaving him with only Cole and Williams.

Puja

[TheNomad]

6 locks and 6 10s gives a sense the pack will not play at pace and the backs need to play with width. More to it than that, but in advance it doesn't look to have a natural balance.

One of those locks has been playing 6 all season - which makes that look more balanced

And there aren't 6 10s there. Slade has been at 13 all year, Francis is happy in either role, and Farrell started at 12 for the Lions as well as all 6Ns, so I don't feel we're lacking cover at 12 or 13. I'd have still liked Marchant to be there personally and not sure what Francis adds. He wouldn't be there if Teo was fit in my opinion

[Banquo]

...but like I said, its hardly beyond the bounds of possibility that one or both get injured, so whether its veteran cover, work with Robson/Spencer to improve their skills, or take a punt, he needs to have something in place.

But neither of them are injured for these three games, so he probably feels it's better to send a message to those outside of the squad that they need to up their game if they want to get in.

He's done the same with the tightheads as well - no Collier (who has been shunt this season) despite that leaving him with only Cole and Williams.

Puja

..yet. On tighthead its a different scenario, where he does have the proven Sinckler at some point.

Its on the odd side, but has been for a while. Its basically fingers crossed Care and Youngs stay fit.

[jngf]

Will be interesting to see if and where Eddie picks Simmonds given comment he's made about identifying his best position. I think we might well see Simmonds tried at openside and it could work well him doing the attacking 'magne' role alongside Underhill doing the defence focussed 'Betsen' role (though I think Robshaw is still our best 6 ).

If Haskell makes a test comeback in next 6 Nations I'd much prefer it to be at 6 rather than 7 though Armand and Wilson have made much stronger claims to the 6 shirt recently.

[TheNomad]

I can see a Lawes, Simmonds, Hughes combo being tested at some point