EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Spiffy]

Mercer's likely to grow into his shoulders though and could be seen as an investment in the future. I don't want to be saying that Simmonds is too small to play international rugby at no 8... but it does feel like he's too small to be playing international rugby at no 8.

Puja

I don't want to say that either...but we all know he is

Has potential at flanker though. More likely 7 than 6.

Robashaw would have been my first name on the sheet not so long ago but Lawes and Armand have been the best 6s in the league this year - after that, maybe Mercer! I know some just flat out won't accept Lawes as an international 6, but I reckon he'd do well if given a shot

He's had shots at 6 at international level and never looked like doing better than well, to be generous.

Players can, and often do, improve. There is no doubt that Lawes is loking better at 6 that at any time in the past and he is playing there regularly now. Jones might give him another shot. At the moment he looks as good as any 6 in the PL. He's a great lineout option, a destructive tackler and a powerful carrier. And he's big.

[kk67]

Marler's front two studs are trapped and the ankle is twisting...?. The clip starts with the studs releasing just as he aims the arm.

[kk67]

He's had shots at 6 at international level and never looked like doing better than well, to be generous.

Players can, and often do, improve. There is no doubt that Lawes is loking better at 6 that at any time in the past and he is playing there regularly now. Jones might give him another shot. At the moment he looks as good as any 6 in the PL. He's a great lineout option, a destructive tackler and a powerful carrier. And he's big.

Tend to agree with Spiffy. CGS can play test 6 without too much difficulty.

[Peat]

He's also better at playing rugby than he was then.
There's been this wiff of unfulfilled potential about him for a few years - not any more though.

Lawes was de facto blindside last 6N and didn't look like a top class guy then. I love what he's doing in Jones' England team, but unless his breakdown game has increased dramatically since February, I feel comfortable betting that you'll wish there was an actual flanker at 6.

I think that's harsh. I'd firstly say that his play (in particular his carrying) has developed since then and secondly, he's been playing a lot more time at 6.

I'd be for it personally. I think he's add more than Robshaw, and with a second row of Itoje and one other, you'd have a good balance anyway

What's harsh about it? International flankers have to be really good at the breakdown and that goes double in an England team where's there not too much help from other team members. I have never seen anything from Lawes - including his stints as an international blindside - that indicates he's got that.

He'd probably do well enough there - I mean, he did last 6N - but the breakdown thing is a seriously limiting factor. And in all the posts bigging up here, no one's saying he looks like he's got it at the breakdown.

I probably shouldn't be so sure on a player I haven't seen play in a while but I feel like we've been down this garden path before and people are ignoring the key factors. Lawes being an even better carrier than he was last Spring is great, but means little to a team that gets little fast ball. Its not like being great in the AP is a completely reliable guide to being great at international rugby either.

[fivepointer]

Lawes at 6 for England might work but you'd probably have to balance that with Underhill and Simmonds in the back row as you would need some effectiveness on the ground. Selecting Lawes means that you would probably have to omit Englands most consistent back row forward.
Its always tempting to select form players, even if it means shoehorning them into their less effective positions, but having natural and regular players in their usual positions is invariably the best option.

[Which Tyler]

Or to make that list of names make a bit more sense:

1. Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge, Matt Mullan
2. Jamie George, Dylan Hartley, Tom Dunn
3. Dan Cole, Harry Williams
4. Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury, Charlie Ewels
5. George Kruis, Nick Isiekwe
6. Chris Robshaw
7. Tom Curry, Sam Underhill
8. Nathan Hughes, Sam Simmonds, (Zach Mercer)

9. Ben Youngs, Danny Care
10. George Ford, Alex Lozowski, (Marcus Smith)
12. Owen Farrell, Piers Francis
13. Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade
11./14. Elliot Daly, Jonny May, Denny Solomona
15. Mike Brown, Anthony Watson

[Stom]

Or to make that list of names make a bit more sense:

Mako Vunipola (Saracens),Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints),Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)



Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Both Mercer and Smith are only in the training squad, though, not the match squads.

Plus, despite where they played age group, Mercer's appearances this season have been at 6, and Simmonds at 8...

[Which Tyler]

Both Mercer and Smith are only in the training squad, though, not the match squads.

Plus, despite where they played age group, Mercer's appearances this season have been at 6, and Simmonds at 8...

1. Cheers, I'll ammend

2. By that logic, Farrell's a 10 and Daly's a 13, Lawes and Itoje are both BSFs. Simmonds can cover across the backrow, so I put him as a BSF as otherwise there's only Robshaw; Mercer's an 8. Both are playing their current positions due to injuries, not specialisation.

[Oakboy]

Based on numbers selected in 2nd row/back row, Lawes and/or Itoje are categorised as 6s, I'd think, and Simmonds an 8.

[Mikey Brown]

Not a whole lot of new information here, but mentions what we're all thinking about Simmonds, Lozowski training at 12 and I'm curious where the figure of "10 first choice players out" comes from.

http://sport.bt.com/rugby-union/james-h ... 4223799925

Also a fantastic reminder in there of Solomona's defensive qualities. If anyone had forgotten.

[Banquo]

10 first choice players out is a tad strange; I can think of two?

[Puja]

I suspect he's saying 10 from the first choice EPS. So Billy, Marler, Maunder, Te'o, Nowell would all count under that. Still struggling to get to 10 though!

Puja

[Raggs]

He may be including people he plans to rest.

[Banquo]

I suspect he's saying 10 from the first choice EPS. So Billy, Marler, Maunder, Te'o, Nowell would all count under that. Still struggling to get to 10 though!

Puja

I'd obliterated Nowell, apols.

[Banquo]

He may be including people he plans to rest.

see other note on Eddie's comments. We are now discussing an irrelevance, rather than asking why have you only got two 9's in your squad, who most think need improving on in any case.

[Mellsblue]

I suspect he's saying 10 from the first choice EPS. So Billy, Marler, Maunder, Te'o, Nowell would all count under that. Still struggling to get to 10 though!

Puja

I'd obliterated Nowell, apols.

You are Rieko Ioane and I claim my ten pounds.

[Banquo]

I suspect he's saying 10 from the first choice EPS. So Billy, Marler, Maunder, Te'o, Nowell would all count under that. Still struggling to get to 10 though!

Puja

I'd obliterated Nowell, apols.

You are Rieko Ioane and I claim my ten pounds.

[bitts]

Was at the Tigers falcons game yesterday. Ford,May and Genge all looked a level or three above everyone else. The difference between Ford and Flood was stark.

Dan Cole, perhaps less obviously impressive.

[Digby]

Who will the locks be now we're perhaps losing the mighty Ewels?

If Lawes had added much improved handling to his much improved carrying I think he'd have a much better shout for selection (and still might at 6 given we're a bit limp there), but as is it looks a 3 way pick between Launch, Itoje and Kruis. I think Launch and Itoje the best individuals, but Kruis likely offers the setpiece work, and then there's the question of what the best balance is rather than who are the best players.

[Oakboy]

Who will the locks be now we're perhaps losing the mighty Ewels?

If Lawes had added much improved handling to his much improved carrying I think he'd have a much better shout for selection (and still might at 6 given we're a bit limp there), but as is it looks a 3 way pick between Launch, Itoje and Kruis. I think Launch and Itoje the best individuals, but Kruis likely offers the setpiece work, and then there's the question of what the best balance is rather than who are the best players.

Usually, the best pairing is the way to go - arguably Itoje and Kruis. Launchbury would be my first name on the teamsheet for skill and character. That highlights the past dilemma.

Maybe now, though, a simple 'pairing' argument may not cut it totally with increased athleticism, pitch coverage and breakdown tactics. It may be that the best combination of the back five as a whole has to be considered. That could require the quickest two locks or the two who best combine with the back row at the breakdown. Also, if line-out ball has to come exclusively from the locks, Itoje and Kruis get the shout. However, with Hughes and/or Lawes and/or Itoje in the back row there is less case against selecting the best individual, Launchbury.

I'd pick Launchbury and Itoje with Lawes at 6.

[Banquo]

Who will the locks be now we're perhaps losing the mighty Ewels?

If Lawes had added much improved handling to his much improved carrying I think he'd have a much better shout for selection (and still might at 6 given we're a bit limp there), but as is it looks a 3 way pick between Launch, Itoje and Kruis. I think Launch and Itoje the best individuals, but Kruis likely offers the setpiece work, and then there's the question of what the best balance is rather than who are the best players.

Usually, the best pairing is the way to go - arguably Itoje and Kruis. Launchbury would be my first name on the teamsheet for skill and character. That highlights the past dilemma.

Maybe now, though, a simple 'pairing' argument may not cut it totally with increased athleticism, pitch coverage and breakdown tactics. It may be that the best combination of the back five as a whole has to be considered. That could require the quickest two locks or the two who best combine with the back row at the breakdown. Also, if line-out ball has to come exclusively from the locks, Itoje and Kruis get the shout. However, with Hughes and/or Lawes and/or Itoje in the back row there is less case against selecting the best individual, Launchbury.

I'd pick Launchbury and Itoje with Lawes at 6.

Who at 7?

[TheNomad]

Who will the locks be now we're perhaps losing the mighty Ewels?

If Lawes had added much improved handling to his much improved carrying I think he'd have a much better shout for selection (and still might at 6 given we're a bit limp there), but as is it looks a 3 way pick between Launch, Itoje and Kruis. I think Launch and Itoje the best individuals, but Kruis likely offers the setpiece work, and then there's the question of what the best balance is rather than who are the best players.

Usually, the best pairing is the way to go - arguably Itoje and Kruis. Launchbury would be my first name on the teamsheet for skill and character. That highlights the past dilemma.

Maybe now, though, a simple 'pairing' argument may not cut it totally with increased athleticism, pitch coverage and breakdown tactics. It may be that the best combination of the back five as a whole has to be considered. That could require the quickest two locks or the two who best combine with the back row at the breakdown. Also, if line-out ball has to come exclusively from the locks, Itoje and Kruis get the shout. However, with Hughes and/or Lawes and/or Itoje in the back row there is less case against selecting the best individual, Launchbury.

I'd pick Launchbury and Itoje with Lawes at 6.

Who at 7?

Is Underhill injured? If not, I'd go for him I think

[Mellsblue]

Will he need/want to call anyone up. He already has Isiekwe in the squad. As we can see at SH he’s rather make do than bring in a player he doesn’t rate. I can’t think of another lock he has name checked. Who was the fourth lock in Arg? Was there one?
If I were him I’d bring in another 6, if he feels he needs another body. Wilson or Armand are the obvious choices.

[Stom]

Will he need/want to call anyone up. He already has Isiekwe in the squad. As we can see at SH he’s rather make do than bring in a player he doesn’t rate. I can’t think of another lock he has name checked. Who was the fourth lock in Arg? Was there one?
If I were him I’d bring in another 6, if he feels he needs another body. Wilson or Armand are the obvious choices.

He could just promote Mercer from the training squad...

[Mellsblue]

Will he need/want to call anyone up. He already has Isiekwe in the squad. As we can see at SH he’s rather make do than bring in a player he doesn’t rate. I can’t think of another lock he has name checked. Who was the fourth lock in Arg? Was there one?
If I were him I’d bring in another 6, if he feels he needs another body. Wilson or Armand are the obvious choices.

He could just promote Mercer from the training squad...

He could do. Going on his public thoughts on the player, I’m not sure Jones would trust him to play we’re there an injury crisis. I also think it’d be harsh to make someone as callow as Mercer play international rugby away from his preferred position.