Spain

[Digby]

Then again, he may just be going through a petulant stage in his development.

He mayn't yet know his position what the with Labour Party under the Glorious Leader™ coming out with the nonsense line (essentially bottling it) that they're 'not in a position to comment on the rights or wrongs of a Catalonian declaration of independence' - a foreign affairs statement which is basically saying we don't comment on foreign affairs if it might upset some lefties.

[rowan]

I come to this debate a little late but not too late, it seems, to offer an informed view that Rowan is talking out of his opinionated hoop as usual.

I too, shall be starting more threads after this. I had thought of going to Catalonia to join the International Brigade, but it seems they are now all in Aleppo (or was it Chepstow?).

The war was waged by NATO and their regional allies, largely with the use of Saudi-backed Jihadists and mercenaries from around the region. That's not a civil war. It's a proxy war. The internal conflict is between the regime and the Muslim Brotherhood, just as it is in Egypt - which America supports to the tune of 1.5 billion in aid each year, because the dictatorship is under its control.

So stick to discussing Spain, chaps. You seem to at least have some notion of what is going on there. Barcelona is my old stomping ground, btw.

[Sandydragon]

I come to this debate a little late but not too late, it seems, to offer an informed view that Rowan is talking out of his opinionated hoop as usual.

I too, shall be starting more threads after this. I had thought of going to Catalonia to join the International Brigade, but it seems they are now all in Aleppo (or was it Chepstow?).

With the recent trend to join the fight against ISIS, I wonder if some of that energy will be directed towards Catalonia? The food would be a lot nicer, less far to travel and you could always hop over the open border into France for a bit of R&R.

[Mellsblue]

I come to this debate a little late but not too late, it seems, to offer an informed view that Rowan is talking out of his opinionated hoop as usual.

I too, shall be starting more threads after this. I had thought of going to Catalonia to join the International Brigade, but it seems they are now all in Aleppo (or was it Chepstow?).

With the recent trend to join the fight against ISIS, I wonder if some of that energy will be directed towards Catalonia? The food would be a lot nicer, less far to travel and you could always hop over the open border into France for a bit of R&R.

Sign me up.

[BBD]

Don't know why everyone is getting so worked up, they only had two decent hits, without Road Rage and Mulder and Scully they are barely a footnote in 90's popular music

[Stom]

Don't know why everyone is getting so worked up, they only had two decent hits, without Road Rage and Mulder and Scully they are barely a footnote in 90's popular music

But that radio voice! Oh my.

[Zhivago]

No more or less than you are on this subject. Although given your normal sources on any given matter, a week on the Spanish coast probably compares quite well.

I suppose you think that independence for Catalonia is a good thing for them and Spain?

Zhiv is likely strong in favour of those voting for a lessening of austerity, albeit without a sound plan of how to pay for it, and anti those voting to leave Spain as they earn more and would prefer to stop seeing their higher wages being taxed to support poorer people, leaving something of a quandary. Still it might be he/she hasn't visisted the area and thus is still able to view the arguments as a neutral

Possibly, although I seem to recall that he considered pre civil war Aleppo to be comparable insize to Chepstow and the less said about some of his other alt news sources the better.

Then again, he may just be going through a petulant stage in his development.

Your memory is faulty. I never said the pre-war population of Aleppo was small. My arguments were that the estimation of the civilian numbers in the besieged areas were exaggerated, probably for propaganda purposes.

As for my views on Catalonia, my opinion is rather informed by the history of the place... the oppression suffered under Franco, my belief in the principle of self-determination, and my view that macroeconomic steering and democratic accountability works best in smaller countries.

[cashead]

When did Spain and Syria become one and the same?

[Mellsblue]

When did Spain and Syria become one and the same?

To many with dyslexia they have always been one and the same.

[Digby]

When did Spain and Syria become one and the same?

To many with dyslexia they have always been one and the same.

Moors or less

[BBD]

I Sikh what you did there

[SerjeantWildgoose]

What you're seeing is a coptic illusion.

[Digby]

there must be some methodism in the madness

[Sandydragon]

Zhiv is likely strong in favour of those voting for a lessening of austerity, albeit without a sound plan of how to pay for it, and anti those voting to leave Spain as they earn more and would prefer to stop seeing their higher wages being taxed to support poorer people, leaving something of a quandary. Still it might be he/she hasn't visisted the area and thus is still able to view the arguments as a neutral

Possibly, although I seem to recall that he considered pre civil war Aleppo to be comparable insize to Chepstow and the less said about some of his other alt news sources the better.

Then again, he may just be going through a petulant stage in his development.

Your memory is faulty. I never said the pre-war population of Aleppo was small. My arguments were that the estimation of the civilian numbers in the besieged areas were exaggerated, probably for propaganda purposes.

As for my views on Catalonia, my opinion is rather informed by the history of the place... the oppression suffered under Franco, my belief in the principle of self-determination, and my view that macroeconomic steering and democratic accountability works best in smaller countries.

You could have just written that initially without trying to be a cock. For someone moaning about the lack of debate in here, you are very good at making sure people don't want to engage with you.

[Digby]

As for my views on Catalonia, my opinion is rather informed by the history of the place... the oppression suffered under Franco, my belief in the principle of self-determination, and my view that macroeconomic steering and democratic accountability works best in smaller countries.

I may have gotten entirely the wrong end of the stick, but my impression is you'd favour something of a left leaning approach, certainly an anti capitalist approach, and I wonder how in practice you see wanting to move away from capitalism as sitting alongside a belief in self-determination?

[Zhivago]

As for my views on Catalonia, my opinion is rather informed by the history of the place... the oppression suffered under Franco, my belief in the principle of self-determination, and my view that macroeconomic steering and democratic accountability works best in smaller countries.

I may have gotten entirely the wrong end of the stick, but my impression is you'd favour something of a left leaning approach, certainly an anti capitalist approach, and I wonder how in practice you see wanting to move away from capitalism as sitting alongside a belief in self-determination?

Capitalism doesn't sit well alongside self-determination. Self-determination is fundamentally about respecting the democratic will of the people. Capitalism is antithetical to democracy in my opinion.

I'm not a Marxist Btw, in case that's what you had me pegged as... So although I see the reasoning behind Marxist disdain for nationalism as a bourgeois concept that divides the proletariat, I personally see it as a strong binding force for society, as long as it manifests itself positively.

[Digby]

As for my views on Catalonia, my opinion is rather informed by the history of the place... the oppression suffered under Franco, my belief in the principle of self-determination, and my view that macroeconomic steering and democratic accountability works best in smaller countries.

I may have gotten entirely the wrong end of the stick, but my impression is you'd favour something of a left leaning approach, certainly an anti capitalist approach, and I wonder how in practice you see wanting to move away from capitalism as sitting alongside a belief in self-determination?

Capitalism doesn't sit well alongside self-determination. Self-determination is fundamentally about respecting the democratic will of the people. Capitalism is antithetical to democracy in my opinion.

I'm not a Marxist Btw, in case that's what you had me pegged as... So although I see the reasoning behind Marxist disdain for nationalism as a bourgeois concept that divides the proletariat, I personally see it as a strong binding force for society, as long as it manifests itself positively.

So self-determination is about groups rather than self?

Also there hasn't been an expression of a democratic will of the people, either on independence or capitalism. On independence there's been an unofficial referendum, and I'll ignore whether there should be a real one for now, which saw some highly regrettable troubles which might have kept voters away, that also would have seen voters stay away as it wasn't official, and saw many voting multiple times. We'd laugh at Mugabe if he ran a referendum in such fashion and claimed it gave any genuine mandate. So at best we've got some reasonable PR being generated by those in favour of leaving, a group who like the Brexiters don't actually explain how they'd make things better, and that's it.

Fwiw I don't in advance have any strong feelings as to whether areas like Catalonia should gain independence, nor Cornwall, Wales or Scotland for that matter, but I do wonder where such thinking ends, independent states each comprising one dwelling? I also wonder what confers ownership of a land such you can vote on making yourself independent, as in why doesn't it belong to everyone in the existing State rather than merely those who reside there, which is to say are the rights of those who reside there those of ownership or merely custodial?

[kk67]

If the dyslexics could untie they might be a force to be reckoned with.

[Sandydragon]

As for my views on Catalonia, my opinion is rather informed by the history of the place... the oppression suffered under Franco, my belief in the principle of self-determination, and my view that macroeconomic steering and democratic accountability works best in smaller countries.

I may have gotten entirely the wrong end of the stick, but my impression is you'd favour something of a left leaning approach, certainly an anti capitalist approach, and I wonder how in practice you see wanting to move away from capitalism as sitting alongside a belief in self-determination?

Capitalism doesn't sit well alongside self-determination. Self-determination is fundamentally about respecting the democratic will of the people. Capitalism is antithetical to democracy in my opinion.

I'm not a Marxist Btw, in case that's what you had me pegged as... So although I see the reasoning behind Marxist disdain for nationalism as a bourgeois concept that divides the proletariat, I personally see it as a strong binding force for society, as long as it manifests itself positively.

So which structure does? What is it about capitalism that is so anti-choice in your view?

[Zhivago]

I may have gotten entirely the wrong end of the stick, but my impression is you'd favour something of a left leaning approach, certainly an anti capitalist approach, and I wonder how in practice you see wanting to move away from capitalism as sitting alongside a belief in self-determination?

Capitalism doesn't sit well alongside self-determination. Self-determination is fundamentally about respecting the democratic will of the people. Capitalism is antithetical to democracy in my opinion.

I'm not a Marxist Btw, in case that's what you had me pegged as... So although I see the reasoning behind Marxist disdain for nationalism as a bourgeois concept that divides the proletariat, I personally see it as a strong binding force for society, as long as it manifests itself positively.

So which structure does? What is it about capitalism that is so anti-choice in your view?

The answer to that can be seen in the response of capitalist forces to the democratic will of the Catalan people.

[Donny osmond]

Do we know what the democratic will of "the catalan people" is?

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

[kk67]

I come to this debate a little late but not too late, it seems, to offer an informed view that Rowan is talking out of his opinionated hoop as usual.

I too, shall be starting more threads after this. I had thought of going to Catalonia to join the International Brigade, but it seems they are now all in Aleppo (or was it Chepstow?).

With the recent trend to join the fight against ISIS, I wonder if some of that energy will be directed towards Catalonia? The food would be a lot nicer, less far to travel and you could always hop over the open border into France for a bit of R&R.

Sign me up.

The ski season will be starting in Andorra quite soon, take your ski boots.

[Digby]

Capitalism doesn't sit well alongside self-determination. Self-determination is fundamentally about respecting the democratic will of the people. Capitalism is antithetical to democracy in my opinion.

I'm not a Marxist Btw, in case that's what you had me pegged as... So although I see the reasoning behind Marxist disdain for nationalism as a bourgeois concept that divides the proletariat, I personally see it as a strong binding force for society, as long as it manifests itself positively.

So which structure does? What is it about capitalism that is so anti-choice in your view?

The answer to that can be seen in the response of capitalist forces to the democratic will of the Catalan people.

What response?

And again there's no established position on the will of the people. At a guess they're not far off 50/50 if it were done properly, certainly it doesn't skew one way or another no matter some using flights in fancy in lieu of facts

[cashead]

Yeah, I'm not sure how accurate the original referendum was, and I suspect loyalists probably wouldn't have bothered as soon as they got word it was "illegal."

[Which Tyler]

yeah - turnout was way too low to say anything much about "the will of the people".
That referendum really should have been the jumping off point for a discussion on arranging an actual referendum - not unilateral declarationis of independence or treason.

I'm told by others who seem to know what they're talking about, that previous polls have had independence fairly consistently in the 40-50% bracket.