EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Mellsblue]

He has matured in to a good Prem player but I don’t see a point of difference, I hate that phrase, that makes him international class. He 7/10 on everything but has no standout quality. He’s still young and if he keeps developing then he may be worth a look in a few years but at the moment I can’t see it. Much as I’d love a Bedford academy graduate to play for England. I’d class him with Woodburn as a good Prem player but one who would be unable to make the step up.

There is an interesting stats graphic in today’s Times which presents a pretty strong case for Earle to be next cab off the rank; but we all know what I think about Harry Sloan.

[Banquo]

Strange that Bassett never gets a mention for the wing vacancy! He's a real 'do the right thing at the right time' merchant who rarely comes off second best to his opposite number. Behind Daly, Watson and May just about everyone is in a relative second division, IMO. I'd have Bassett at or near the top of it.

Not really

[fivepointer]

Good player Bassett but probably just a bit short of international class like Woodburn and one or two others.

How about Humphreys at Worcester? Not seen much of him but he's scored some cracking tries and looks to have a bit of pace and power.

[Oakboy]

Good player Bassett but probably just a bit short of international class like Woodburn and one or two others.

Would you not say the same about Wade, Roko and Yarde?

[Banquo]

Good player Bassett but probably just a bit short of international class like Woodburn and one or two others.

Would you not say the same about Wade, Roko and Yarde?

No, they are much more likely international players. They have definite qualities that would enable them to stand out internationally, but (alleged) deficiencies that lead them to being written off by the likes of you.

[fivepointer]

Good player Bassett but probably just a bit short of international class like Woodburn and one or two others.

Would you not say the same about Wade, Roko and Yarde?

I dont think Wade is international class but Yarde has played well enough for England. I've always rated Roko, accepting his flaws, and think he has earnt a proper chance to show what he can do.

[Mikey Brown]

I feel for Robshaw of all people to come out and say this does not bode well at all for Yarde.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41842109

Seems my worries about his atttude weren’t even the worst of it.

I know I posted this elsewhere but it does seem relevant perhaps to the England debate. Particularly with our wingers dropping like flies.

I wonder how much recent events at Quins influenced Jones decision to leave him out, as he was certainly playing well.

[Oakboy]

Good player Bassett but probably just a bit short of international class like Woodburn and one or two others.

Would you not say the same about Wade, Roko and Yarde?

No, they are much more likely international players. They have definite qualities that would enable them to stand out internationally, but (alleged) deficiencies that lead them to being written off by the likes of you.

Well, one of Yarde's deficiencies has become apparent - even to the likes of YOU!

[Stom]

I do hope May is back for the second game. And I do hope it's therefore Roko and Watson on the wings for the first.

We are a little bare at wing, aren't we. A few kids coming through, but no-one ready to step up apart from 4 players. 3 of whom are injured and one of whom we'd all pretty much love to see at 15.

[Banquo]

Would you not say the same about Wade, Roko and Yarde?

No, they are much more likely international players. They have definite qualities that would enable them to stand out internationally, but (alleged) deficiencies that lead them to being written off by the likes of you.

Well, one of Yarde's deficiencies has become apparent - even to the likes of YOU!

what, that he was unhappy at Quins?

[Digby]

No, they are much more likely international players. They have definite qualities that would enable them to stand out internationally, but (alleged) deficiencies that lead them to being written off by the likes of you.

Well, one of Yarde's deficiencies has become apparent - even to the likes of YOU!

what, that he was unhappy at Quins?

The problem seems to be he was happy, excessively so. Dimes will not make him happy, which may or may not work in the longer term

[Timbo]

I do hope May is back for the second game. And I do hope it's therefore Roko and Watson on the wings for the first.

We are a little bare at wing, aren't we. A few kids coming through, but no-one ready to step up apart from 4 players. 3 of whom are injured and one of whom we'd all pretty much love to see at 15.

If you’re calling in Roko as 5/6th choice then I tend to think wing stocks are pretty decent. Outside of NZ I don’t think any other country would have Roko that far down the pecking order, nor be able to completely ignore a talent like Christian Wade.

[Banquo]

Well, one of Yarde's deficiencies has become apparent - even to the likes of YOU!

what, that he was unhappy at Quins?

The problem seems to be he was happy, excessively so. Dimes will not make him happy, which may or may not work in the longer term

On the lash with Denny and Jim?

[Oakboy]

No, they are much more likely international players. They have definite qualities that would enable them to stand out internationally, but (alleged) deficiencies that lead them to being written off by the likes of you.

Well, one of Yarde's deficiencies has become apparent - even to the likes of YOU!

what, that he was unhappy at Quins?

That his character/team application is suspect, according to Robshaw.

[Banquo]

Well, one of Yarde's deficiencies has become apparent - even to the likes of YOU!

what, that he was unhappy at Quins?

That his character/team application is suspect, according to Robshaw.

Unlike, say Cipriani

[Oakboy]

what, that he was unhappy at Quins?

That his character/team application is suspect, according to Robshaw.

Unlike, say Cipriani

Who has been discarded!

[Banquo]

That his character/team application is suspect, according to Robshaw.

Unlike, say Cipriani

Who has been discarded!

correct, but yet you would pick him #justsaying

[Raggs]

Has Cippers been named and shamed by ex team mates? Or accused of skipping training sessions/team runs? He's done plenty of stupid shit, and some of it may have then gone on to impact his career, but simply skipping out on training, or not turning up for a training week abroad?

[Banquo]

Has Cippers been named and shamed by ex team mates? Or accused of skipping training sessions/team runs? He's done plenty of stupid shit, and some of it may have then gone on to impact his career, but simply skipping out on training, or not turning up for a training week abroad?

dunno, has he- frankly I've lost track amongst being dropped by England for clubbing, being hit by a bus (may have missed a spot of training) and being splashed all over the tabloids? Its a parallel to a lack of professional commitment- I implied his character and application were suspect, not the precise charge as above. He's certainly 'done plenty of stupid sh*t' which is what Yarde seems to be being accused of. Heaven forfend I impugn a Wasp, even one that was decked in training by a team mate.

and I say this who thought he was the finest talent I'd seen for a long time in around 2008. That leg break was a heck of a set back in fairness, and very poorly managed. The rest...largely a tale of unfulfilled promise.

[Raggs]

Has Cippers been named and shamed by ex team mates? Or accused of skipping training sessions/team runs? He's done plenty of stupid shit, and some of it may have then gone on to impact his career, but simply skipping out on training, or not turning up for a training week abroad?

dunno, has he- frankly I've lost track amongst being dropped by England for clubbing, being hit by a bus (may have missed a spot of training) and being splashed all over the tabloids? Its a parallel to a lack of professional commitment- I implied his character and application were suspect, not the precise charge as above. He's certainly 'done plenty of stupid sh*t' which is what Yarde seems to be being accused of. Heaven forfend I impugn a Wasp, even one that was decked in training by a team mate.

and I say this who thought he was the finest talent I'd seen for a long time in around 2008. That leg break was a heck of a set back in fairness, and very poorly managed. The rest...largely a tale of unfulfilled promise.

Isn't it easy to just hand wave away an argument with "It's just because he's a wasp".

My point is that I don't know if Cippers' team application is suspect. Arising from Andy Goode calling out the journalist who said Henson and Cippers (who've both had similar troubles) were two of the most serious trainers he knew of. Cippers absolutely pissed his international career away with stupid behaviour and been deservedly dropped for it. Getting hit by a bus obviously effected his training, but it wasn't that he simply didn't bother with training. The drink driving one is the one that strikes me as the most unforgiveable and definitely not just with regards to his career, but his application in training, and with his clubs, doesn't seem to have been considered problematic (to my knowledge).

If you'd like, shall we replace the name Cippers with the name Henson? He was another who did plenty of stupid shit, but his team mates (that I've heard/read) constantly referred to him as one of the most dedicated trainers, and mostly seemed to like him.

[Banquo]

Has Cippers been named and shamed by ex team mates? Or accused of skipping training sessions/team runs? He's done plenty of stupid shit, and some of it may have then gone on to impact his career, but simply skipping out on training, or not turning up for a training week abroad?

dunno, has he- frankly I've lost track amongst being dropped by England for clubbing, being hit by a bus (may have missed a spot of training) and being splashed all over the tabloids? Its a parallel to a lack of professional commitment- I implied his character and application were suspect, not the precise charge as above. He's certainly 'done plenty of stupid sh*t' which is what Yarde seems to be being accused of. Heaven forfend I impugn a Wasp, even one that was decked in training by a team mate.

and I say this who thought he was the finest talent I'd seen for a long time in around 2008. That leg break was a heck of a set back in fairness, and very poorly managed. The rest...largely a tale of unfulfilled promise.

Isn't it easy to just hand wave away an argument with "It's just because he's a wasp".

My point is that I don't know if Cippers' team application is suspect. Arising from Andy Goode calling out the journalist who said Henson and Cippers (who've both had similar troubles) were two of the most serious trainers he knew of. Cippers absolutely pissed his international career away with stupid behaviour and been deservedly dropped for it. Getting hit by a bus obviously effected his training, but it wasn't that he simply didn't bother with training. The drink driving one is the one that strikes me as the most unforgiveable and definitely not just with regards to his career, but his application in training, and with his clubs, doesn't seem to have been considered problematic (to my knowledge).

If you'd like, shall we replace the name Cippers with the name Henson? He was another who did plenty of stupid shit, but his team mates (that I've heard/read) constantly referred to him as one of the most dedicated trainers, and mostly seemed to like him.

Matthew Syed did exactly that in an excellent article in the Times earlier this week. Worth a read. You seem keen to reference training as the only type of proof of application- and indeed Syed talks specifically about that. My point is that both Cipriani and Henson did stupid shyte, and failed to achieve what their talent 'demanded'- to my mind that indicates a lack of focus and application to their profession. May not be cause and effect to be fair, but its an observation.

And apologies for the Wasp reference, but you do seem very keen to wade in (see what I did there) when anything connected is mentioned. Frankly it was really to link in the Lewsey reference, as there was a team mate who wasn't that keen, seemingly.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why- ... -lgndkfsj6

[Banquo]

...I'd also add that Henson's team mates have rallied around to re-but some of Syed's criticism. But they may have also missed his point. However it does back up your point about training; but, that wasn't exactly the point I was making. I drew a parallel with Yarde's partying, and Cips off field misadventures, which you yourself said pissed away his international career. There, we agree!

[Digby]

I did laugh when Henson rocked up at Toulon and went out drinking with the boys and ended up in something of a scuffle with them from memory, essentially after a few drinks Henson observed he was the equal of Wilkinson in work ethic and talent and that drew some hilarity and scorn from his new teammates. Wilkinson was not needless to say part of the group that had gone out drinking

Cips I've heard is a hard worker, but also a cocky gobshite. And in fairness he wasn't wrong when he told Smith/Wells that the attack plan was stupid and wouldn't work, and you'd have to wonder at coaches who want to select a 10 and then deny the 10 a voice on how a team should function, still, had he not been a cocky gobshite the talent was there to achieve rather more.

[Raggs]

...I'd also add that Henson's team mates have rallied around to re-but some of Syed's criticism. But they may have also missed his point. However it does back up your point about training; but, that wasn't exactly the point I was making. I drew a parallel with Yarde's partying, and Cips off field misadventures, which you yourself said pissed away his international career. There, we agree!

Yarde definitely seems to party, but my point was that he missed training sessions, repeatedly, with no "been hit by an actual bus" reason, just didn't consider it important enough. Ignored phone calls from the boss when he was supposed to be getting on a plane to Germany etc. There's a big difference between a bit of a twat (especially after a few beers), but still turns up and works harder than most of the squad, and a bit of a twat who also doesn't put the time in at training.

[Banquo]

...I'd also add that Henson's team mates have rallied around to re-but some of Syed's criticism. But they may have also missed his point. However it does back up your point about training; but, that wasn't exactly the point I was making. I drew a parallel with Yarde's partying, and Cips off field misadventures, which you yourself said pissed away his international career. There, we agree!

Yarde definitely seems to party, but my point was that he missed training sessions, repeatedly, with no "been hit by an actual bus" reason, just didn't consider it important enough. Ignored phone calls from the boss when he was supposed to be getting on a plane to Germany etc. There's a big difference between a bit of a twat (especially after a few beers), but still turns up and works harder than most of the squad, and a bit of a twat who also doesn't put the time in at training.

...and my point was that cips had character and (team) application issues which to your point pi55ed away an international career worth noting. To be honest it’s a bit of hair splitting; even if working hard at training, it’s not showing the required professionalism, and you let down your team mates and your club. You are the one making the issue about missing training, I made a general point on off field behaviour and attitude to profession. They are just different degrees of wasting your talent.