Edinburgh 2024/25

[septic 9]

Glasgow win incoming. Smith is so confident that he's starting Dobis at 9. Not sure what the point of Darge on the bench is unless it's a break glass in case of emergency type scenario.

those paying attention will recall that Glasgow hae 8 back row and locks out injured, so have have 4 hookers in their match days squads recently, basically the onlt fot forwards left for the 6/2 set up. This week, one of the hookers, Mathews is also injured, Darge has recovered form concussion - and the back row played really well last week so keep their starting spots. Unlike at Edinburgh, form is rewarded

[septic 9]

For Glasgow Hiddlestone gets the nod ahead of Stewart because the coaching team have tick solid job security and belief in that security.

nope. The hookers at Glasgow are ranked by most as 1 Mathews 2 Hiddlestone 3 Fraser 4 Stewart. Which makes Hiddlestone the natural replacement for the injured Mathews.
For all Mathews try record, I would start Hiddlestone over him every time. Stewart has only been called back into the squad this season because Turner left for Japan

[Mikey Brown]

Smith is so confident that he's starting Dobis at 9.

Do you not rate him or am I missing something here?

[switchskier]

Smith is so confident that he's starting Dobis at 9.

Do you not rate him or am I missing something here?

I think he's a good player still with some untapped potential. But I don't think that he's started at 9 since September, though he's been on the wing.

Basically I was being a bit flippant. Smith likes rotate and keep everyone involved. The results speak for themselves even if some of us hoped Dobie would own the shirt by now and be the next great Scotland scrum half. But Horne seems clearly first choice to me.

[switchskier]

For Glasgow Hiddlestone gets the nod ahead of Stewart because the coaching team have tick solid job security and belief in that security.

nope. The hookers at Glasgow are ranked by most as 1 Mathews 2 Hiddlestone 3 Fraser 4 Stewart. Which makes Hiddlestone the natural replacement for the injured Mathews.
For all Mathews try record, I would start Hiddlestone over him every time. Stewart has only been called back into the squad this season because Turner left for Japan

Missing the point. At Edinburgh Stewart would never have been let go and would be starting this game. And I think that's partly down to coaching confidence.

[septic 9]

For Glasgow Hiddlestone gets the nod ahead of Stewart because the coaching team have tick solid job security and belief in that security.

nope. The hookers at Glasgow are ranked by most as 1 Mathews 2 Hiddlestone 3 Fraser 4 Stewart. Which makes Hiddlestone the natural replacement for the injured Mathews.
For all Mathews try record, I would start Hiddlestone over him every time. Stewart has only been called back into the squad this season because Turner left for Japan

Missing the point. At Edinburgh Stewart would never have been let go and would be starting this game. And I think that's partly down to coaching confidence.

well I certainly missed that point!
And I'm still not sure how him being released is down to coaching confidence, unless mean the confidence the coach has in him?
Its an interesting but moot point about if he had been at Edinburgh. At Glasgow when he was let go he was simply behind Fraser Brown, Mathews and Turner, with Fraser in the academy looking full of promise (then along came Hiddlestone who we could see from U20s was always the future)Basically no room at the inn for all of them, he was the least likely to play of the senior hookers so was let go
All made sense even if some - myself - included - were sorry as he is a good player and never let us down
Edin could have signed him. probably a quarter of the cost of the much higher ceiling Ashman but more consistent. Or if the stories are true sacked another and replaced him with Stewart

[septic 9]

Smith is so confident that he's starting Dobis at 9.

Do you not rate him or am I missing something here?

I think he's a good player still with some untapped potential. But I don't think that he's started at 9 since September, though he's been on the wing.

Basically I was being a bit flippant. Smith likes rotate and keep everyone involved. The results speak for themselves even if some of us hoped Dobie would own the shirt by now and be the next great Scotland scrum half. But Horne seems clearly first choice to me.

Dobie didn't really progress much as a player after his first couple of season - straight from School remember into pro rugby. He developed a hesitation in his pass, a Laidlaw like step before the pass, which slows everything down. Looks better recently and his wing play is not only another string to his bow but made him a better all round player.
Horne is first choice right now, but if he falls off form he won't be. He also has the advantage of being a Paterson-like goal kicker - great accuracy with limited range. So I think he often gets the edge over Dobie in starting with Jordan, who is very much a below average goal kicker.
Both need to look over their shoulder at the new young upstart, Afshar. He kicks goal as well.

[BaldiePete]

A greatly improved performance by Edinburgh built on solid defence. To restrict this Glasgow team to a single penalty try was good work. It was a win, but not such a good win that Everitt can feel his job is safe, so win-win really. They’re still not threatening in attack though and in all honesty I can’t see them maintaining any sort of consistently high level of play for the latter half of the season.

[Mikey Brown]

Any idea what the solution could actually be though? Edinburgh seem to have been in this endless up and down way for years.

They seem to make big strides in some ways and regress in others. They don’t seem to have held on to any of the bite in the forwards under Cockerill or what they are showing in attack under Blair.

[BaldiePete]

There are good players at Edinburgh who consistently play better for Scotland than for Edinburgh. It has to come down to the team culture and the coaching. When Cockerill came in the team culture was rotten, he terrified everyone and results improved even though the performances were still stodgy. Blair went the opposite way, open play and lots of running rugby but it didn’t last because they didn’t really have the personnel for it. The failure to develop (or sign) good half backs is one of the things holding them back. Presumably it was thought that Healey would be the answer at 10 but that hasn’t worked at all, he has regressed during his time at Edinburgh.

There have been rumours that Toby Booth, who has just left the Ospreys, is being considered as head coach. TBH, I don’t know enough about him to know whether that’s a good thing or not.

[septic 9]

Any idea what the solution could actually be though? Edinburgh seem to have been in this endless up and down way for years.

They seem to make big strides in some ways and regress in others. They don’t seem to have held on to any of the bite in the forwards under Cockerill or what they are showing in attack under Blair.

it is clearly a deeper malaise than any coach and any set of players. There has been a view around for ages that playing at Murrayfield was a serious barrier. Huge stadium tiny crowds didn't help, but always in the eyes of the national coaches bred familiarity and favourites, and the stadium was not special for them. The Hive addressed some of that but they still train and change in the same dressing rooms, still rub shoulders every day with whatever big wigs are in.
Glasgow OTOH have never had that set up, so they feel more like a club who do not feel they get the same advantages, who constantly have to prove themselves worthy and have a bit of a chip on their shoulder which gives them an edge.

Make of that as you will

[septic 9]

There are good players at Edinburgh who consistently play better for Scotland than for Edinburgh. It has to come down to the team culture and the coaching. When Cockerill came in the team culture was rotten, he terrified everyone and results improved even though the performances were still stodgy. Blair went the opposite way, open play and lots of running rugby but it didn’t last because they didn’t really have the personnel for it. The failure to develop (or sign) good half backs is one of the things holding them back. Presumably it was thought that Healey would be the answer at 10 but that hasn’t worked at all, he has regressed during his time at Edinburgh.

There have been rumours that Toby Booth, who has just left the Ospreys, is being considered as head coach. TBH, I don’t know enough about him to know whether that’s a good thing or not.

now I am a Warriors fan first and foremost, a declaration of interest, but we need both teams to be as successful as possible. Edinburgh are not and have rarely pulled their weight. The lack of development of half backs is something many have long pointed out. What I am going to say now ties in with my previous post. The Edinburgh "solution" to a "problem" has all too often been to get the SRU to move a player from Glasgow. we see calls on here for it and elsewhere all too often. Players move both ways down the M8 of course, but it is usually a proven international going east and a cast off going west.
This fails to recognise that a good side, who which has aspirations to win stuff, needs serious depth in every position. EG SRU moved Price and Glasgow were left almost immediately (injuries etc) with having to play an apprentice and a 33 year old part timer (who had been rejected by Edinburgh).
This left Glasgow weaker and absolved Edinburgh from their long term failure to develop their own half backs. The easy option for Edinburgh, no work involved, meanwhile Glasgow solve another problem

[septic 9]

There have been rumours that Toby Booth, who has just left the Ospreys, is being considered as head coach. TBH, I don’t know enough about him to know whether that’s a good thing or not.

he is a decent guy, very experienced, but primarily a forwards coach. Did pretty well with the Ospreys pack TBF but their backs not so hot. I would need to know a lot more about the circumstances of his split from Ospreys first, was a bit messy

[Which Tyler]

He's been head coach plenty (4 years at LI, 4.5 at Ospreys) - did well with both, good man, very good coach / man manager. Good enough head coach without being exceptional. I'd say that his handling of people favours him towards hands-on coaching,weather sitting at the back driving the coaching team.

I'd say his level as an assistant would be towards the top of the table URC/Prem/T14, as head coach would be mid-table.

[BaldiePete]

There are good players at Edinburgh who consistently play better for Scotland than for Edinburgh. It has to come down to the team culture and the coaching. When Cockerill came in the team culture was rotten, he terrified everyone and results improved even though the performances were still stodgy. Blair went the opposite way, open play and lots of running rugby but it didn’t last because they didn’t really have the personnel for it. The failure to develop (or sign) good half backs is one of the things holding them back. Presumably it was thought that Healey would be the answer at 10 but that hasn’t worked at all, he has regressed during his time at Edinburgh.

There have been rumours that Toby Booth, who has just left the Ospreys, is being considered as head coach. TBH, I don’t know enough about him to know whether that’s a good thing or not.

now I am a Warriors fan first and foremost, a declaration of interest, but we need both teams to be as successful as possible. Edinburgh are not and have rarely pulled their weight. The lack of development of half backs is something many have long pointed out. What I am going to say now ties in with my previous post. The Edinburgh "solution" to a "problem" has all too often been to get the SRU to move a player from Glasgow. we see calls on here for it and elsewhere all too often. Players move both ways down the M8 of course, but it is usually a proven international going east and a cast off going west.
This fails to recognise that a good side, who which has aspirations to win stuff, needs serious depth in every position. EG SRU moved Price and Glasgow were left almost immediately (injuries etc) with having to play an apprentice and a 33 year old part timer (who had been rejected by Edinburgh).
This left Glasgow weaker and absolved Edinburgh from their long term failure to develop their own half backs. The easy option for Edinburgh, no work involved, meanwhile Glasgow solve another problem

The thing about Edinburgh cast offs going west is that many of them turned out to be good players when they got to Glasgow. Rory Darge, Fraser Brown and George Turner being prime examples. Edinburgh just didn’t give them a chance to flourish. The latter two were blocked by Ross Ford and Darge presumably by Hamish Watson. Sean Kennedy was pretty pish for both teams though. Proven internationals such as Price and Weir may have gone east but they were past their best when they were moved. In the long-term Edinburgh have been terrible at developing talent, often not seeing it in their own young players and shipping them off to Glasgow where they have thrived.

[septic 9]

The thing about Edinburgh cast offs going west is that many of them turned out to be good players when they got to Glasgow. Rory Darge, Fraser Brown and George Turner being prime examples. Edinburgh just didn’t give them a chance to flourish. The latter two were blocked by Ross Ford and Darge presumably by Hamish Watson. Sean Kennedy was pretty pish for both teams though. Proven internationals such as Price and Weir may have gone east but they were past their best when they were moved. In the long-term Edinburgh have been terrible at developing talent, often not seeing it in their own young players and shipping them off to Glasgow where they have thrived.

First, we agree about Edinburgh's long term inability to identify players who are not obviously Darcy or Duhan but can be developed to a high standard, and to maximise many more.

Now we can discuss the rest and Edinburgh comfort zone
Ford. Was with Borders, who folded, he was allocated to Glasgow and famously gave an "always wanted to play for them" type quote. He never pulled on the jersey, Glasgow was too far from home so was sent to Edinburgh and Hall down the M8 instead. Hall wasn't really blocked, he was the minion, Ford the poster boy not even at Edinburgh
Darge wasn't exactly blocked by Watson, he was a kid, one of 2 excellent opensides from the same U20 year (Boyle the other). Sure Edin had many back row options, but both those kids should not have been allocated to Edinburgh. But they were. Then Cockerill decided he would only keep one, and picked the wrong one (which was blindingly obvious TBH). Darge was a fixture in the Glasgow team withing weeks, Boyle is around, mainly blocked
Turner was rumoured to have some discipline issues at Edinburgh. Solution, send him to Glasgow let them deal with it.
You may say Wier and Price were past their best. Price had a dip in form post Lions tour. Then had to fight for a place against Horne and Dobie. He would have come back. But Edinburgh having splashed on Vellacot and made him captain, needed a better controlling 9; and Glasgow have 3 so can spare one.
Similar to Weir. Edin needed a 10, Glasgow had 3 (Russell and Jackson) When he was moved (and it was against his will and the Glasgow coach at the time, one G Townsend), he soon had a long term injury. Cockerill came in and decided not to renew his contract, and later admitted he had made a mistake. Ironically the game Cockerill wanted to play was ideally suited to Weir; and Dunky went on to be a fan favourite at Worcs. He wasn't past his best
And similar to Bennett. Edinburgh lacked good centres, Glasgow had 3 or 4 (Dunbar, Horne, Vernon), so give one to Edinburgh, whether player or club want the move
Brown TBF retired from rugby with a serious neck injury from Edinburgh. Starting playing again later, club rugby at openside. Then onwards and upwards

at the end of the day we can disagree about whether these guys were past it or not, point is Edinburgh want Edinburgh get. Edinburgh did not have to find and develop their own players, just nick one from Glasgow. Glasgow have to work and solve problems

Now I may have over egged a wee but, but there is more than a kernel of truth in the above and its is IMHO a big part of Edinburgh's long term issues. No real accountability due to privileged treatment which spans many coaches

[switchskier]

Catching up but that was a much better performance by the pack - showed that there's still pride there. Reports of Ritchie and Gilchrist stepping up and leading training are both encouraging and concerning (why was that needed and where were the coaches).

Defense better too, though I think that there was a large element of Price and Thompson slowing things down, sitting deep and playing in a way that minimized risk of turnovers or players being out of position. The right game plan for this game but not one that's going to take us far.

Thought Lang added something when he came on. He's become a but if a forgotten man and can't see him getting renewed unless he shows a bit more over the next few months.

[switchskier]

The thing about Edinburgh cast offs going west is that many of them turned out to be good players when they got to Glasgow. Rory Darge, Fraser Brown and George Turner being prime examples. Edinburgh just didn’t give them a chance to flourish. The latter two were blocked by Ross Ford and Darge presumably by Hamish Watson. Sean Kennedy was pretty pish for both teams though. Proven internationals such as Price and Weir may have gone east but they were past their best when they were moved. In the long-term Edinburgh have been terrible at developing talent, often not seeing it in their own young players and shipping them off to Glasgow where they have thrived.

First, we agree about Edinburgh's long term inability to identify players who are not obviously Darcy or Duhan but can be developed to a high standard, and to maximise many more.

Now we can discuss the rest and Edinburgh comfort zone
Ford. Was with Borders, who folded, he was allocated to Glasgow and famously gave an "always wanted to play for them" type quote. He never pulled on the jersey, Glasgow was too far from home so was sent to Edinburgh and Hall down the M8 instead. Hall wasn't really blocked, he was the minion, Ford the poster boy not even at Edinburgh
Darge wasn't exactly blocked by Watson, he was a kid, one of 2 excellent opensides from the same U20 year (Boyle the other). Sure Edin had many back row options, but both those kids should not have been allocated to Edinburgh. But they were. Then Cockerill decided he would only keep one, and picked the wrong one (which was blindingly obvious TBH). Darge was a fixture in the Glasgow team withing weeks, Boyle is around, mainly blocked
Turner was rumoured to have some discipline issues at Edinburgh. Solution, send him to Glasgow let them deal with it.
You may say Wier and Price were past their best. Price had a dip in form post Lions tour. Then had to fight for a place against Horne and Dobie. He would have come back. But Edinburgh having splashed on Vellacot and made him captain, needed a better controlling 9; and Glasgow have 3 so can spare one.
Similar to Weir. Edin needed a 10, Glasgow had 3 (Russell and Jackson) When he was moved (and it was against his will and the Glasgow coach at the time, one G Townsend), he soon had a long term injury. Cockerill came in and decided not to renew his contract, and later admitted he had made a mistake. Ironically the game Cockerill wanted to play was ideally suited to Weir; and Dunky went on to be a fan favourite at Worcs. He wasn't past his best
And similar to Bennett. Edinburgh lacked good centres, Glasgow had 3 or 4 (Dunbar, Horne, Vernon), so give one to Edinburgh, whether player or club want the move
Brown TBF retired from rugby with a serious neck injury from Edinburgh. Starting playing again later, club rugby at openside. Then onwards and upwards

at the end of the day we can disagree about whether these guys were past it or not, point is Edinburgh want Edinburgh get. Edinburgh did not have to find and develop their own players, just nick one from Glasgow. Glasgow have to work and solve problems

Now I may have over egged a wee but, but there is more than a kernel of truth in the above and its is IMHO a big part of Edinburgh's long term issues. No real accountability due to privileged treatment which spans many coaches

This has always been the Glasgow complaint and it dates back from the pre-Lineen era when they very rarely put out a competitive side. I remember Kellock and Leonelli being moved to Glasgow because the grumping was causing ructions at the SRU.
It's interesting that the sense of grievance is being maintained despite their current superiority.

Heard differently on Sykes: that the national coaches saw physical attributes but Glasgow weren't convinced and were happy to let him go.

[septic 9]

Heard differently on Sykes: that the national coaches saw physical attributes but Glasgow weren't convinced and were happy to let him go.

Cockerill boasted about seeing Sykes as a back row option. I kid you not

[septic 9]

This has always been the Glasgow complaint and it dates back from the pre-Lineen era when they very rarely put out a competitive side. I remember Kellock and Leonelli being moved to Glasgow because the grumping was causing ructions at the SRU.
It's interesting that the sense of grievance is being maintained despite their current superiority.

Kellock should have gone to Glasgow in the first place. Glasgow man through and through but SRU decided....
Leonelli was another case in point of SRU interference. He was moved against his will from Edin to Glasgow. Played half a dozen matches and most thought he wasn't trying a leg. Didn't last long, went to Saracens and did well.
By pre Lineen, if you mean the era of Hadden as Scotland coach, I agree. Fir me this was the root of it - Glasgow's chip and Edinburgh's perennial malaise. With Hadden as I read somewhere, as Edinburgh coach if you were a favourite and could walk with the aid of a stick you got picked for Edinburgh. And when he became Scotland coach that really became a bigger problem - because if you played for Edinburgh, you were still in Hadden's eyeline then you got picked for Scotland. Form mattered not, being one of his boys did, that was the only criteria. He took coach favourites to a new level. That really irked many players elsewhere and caused the complacency among Edinburgh players - who far far too often only turned up for Scotland. Or tried to

I don't think its a grievance now with Warriors (except when another player is moved against will of player and club, and then mainly fans) - its more a sense that they believe they need to stand on their own feet, and so have more of a sense of accountability and responsibility. I do not think I've ever heard a Glasgow coach, in public or private suggesting Edinburgh have a surfeit/too many players in position X and maybe one could be moved. Cannot say the same about Edinburgh coaches