Page 6 of 19
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:52 am
by FKAS
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:39 am
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:19 am
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:33 am
Where he was forwards coach during the Eddie Jones revival of the England team? Couldn't get out of the group at a home world cup to record breaking winning run and world cup final.
Very different gig being head coach at international level. Borthwick is learning on the job. He isnt helped by not having much high level experience around him. Sinfield, Harrison, Wiggy arent exactly seasoned international level coaches.
Assuming that all three appointments were SB's first choice, have any got international mileage in them? Wigglesworth's renown as a box-kicker always suggested going in the wrong direction to me but I know insufficient to form an opinion of the other two.
Wigglesworth is going to be a skills coach with Felix Jones to be the attack coach after the world cup (SA won't release him before). Quins wouldn't loan Nick Evans for the world cup. Sarries refused to release their scrum coach so Harrison got the gig. If Tigers coaching staff hadn't been up for contract renewal then England would possibly be in more trouble as hiring coaches pre world cup isn't exactly ideal. Post world cup there's normally a lot more opportunity.
If the Prem clubs won't play nice with the RFU it's going to be difficult. Having said that but the way the RFU approached Tigers was disrespectful/unprofessional when it came to negotiating for SB and KS so it might well have been that they upset the clubs and got told to go and do one.
I think only Sinfield was Borthwick's first choice.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:00 am
by p/d
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:39 am
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:19 am
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:33 am
Where he was forwards coach during the Eddie Jones revival of the England team? Couldn't get out of the group at a home world cup to record breaking winning run and world cup final.
Very different gig being head coach at international level. Borthwick is learning on the job. He isnt helped by not having much high level experience around him. Sinfield, Harrison, Wiggy arent exactly seasoned international level coaches.
Assuming that all three appointments were SB's first choice, have any got international mileage in them?
Wigglesworth's renown as a box-kicker always suggested going in the wrong direction to me but I know insufficient to form an opinion of the other two.
Feels like picking Rob Cook as kicking coach
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:13 am
by Epaminondas Pules
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:52 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:39 am
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:19 am
Very different gig being head coach at international level. Borthwick is learning on the job. He isnt helped by not having much high level experience around him. Sinfield, Harrison, Wiggy arent exactly seasoned international level coaches.
Assuming that all three appointments were SB's first choice, have any got international mileage in them? Wigglesworth's renown as a box-kicker always suggested going in the wrong direction to me but I know insufficient to form an opinion of the other two.
Wigglesworth is going to be a skills coach with Felix Jones to be the attack coach after the world cup (SA won't release him before). Quins wouldn't loan Nick Evans for the world cup. Sarries refused to release their scrum coach so Harrison got the gig. If Tigers coaching staff hadn't been up for contract renewal then England would possibly be in more trouble as hiring coaches pre world cup isn't exactly ideal. Post world cup there's normally a lot more opportunity.
If the Prem clubs won't play nice with the RFU it's going to be difficult. Having said that but the way the RFU approached Tigers was disrespectful/unprofessional when it came to negotiating for SB and KS so it might well have been that they upset the clubs and got told to go and do one.
I think only Sinfield was Borthwick's first choice.
Wasn’t it Peel who turned down England not Sarries
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:19 am
by FKAS
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:13 am
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:52 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:39 am
Assuming that all three appointments were SB's first choice, have any got international mileage in them? Wigglesworth's renown as a box-kicker always suggested going in the wrong direction to me but I know insufficient to form an opinion of the other two.
Wigglesworth is going to be a skills coach with Felix Jones to be the attack coach after the world cup (SA won't release him before). Quins wouldn't loan Nick Evans for the world cup. Sarries refused to release their scrum coach so Harrison got the gig. If Tigers coaching staff hadn't been up for contract renewal then England would possibly be in more trouble as hiring coaches pre world cup isn't exactly ideal. Post world cup there's normally a lot more opportunity.
If the Prem clubs won't play nice with the RFU it's going to be difficult. Having said that but the way the RFU approached Tigers was disrespectful/unprofessional when it came to negotiating for SB and KS so it might well have been that they upset the clubs and got told to go and do one.
I think only Sinfield was Borthwick's first choice.
Wasn’t it Peel who turned down England not Sarries
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... aracens%2F
You're right it was Peel's decision. Slightly worrying that with him saying that there was plenty of interest in the job and we got Harrison who is a pretty inexperienced coach at first team club level let alone international level. Now Harrison did a good job at Tigers but I was surprised he got promoted up so quickly.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:22 am
by Mr Mwenda
I just hope England can finish the game with 15 players on the pitch.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:23 am
by Mr Mwenda
rjjb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:15 am
Ireland have been pretty average against England for the last few years. I hope they click on Saturday.
I suspect they will want to make a statement. Could get very ugly for England
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:24 pm
by Banquo
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:19 am
rjjb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 8:34 am
Borthwick simply isn't up to the job, so rebuilding may take some time.
Yeah if only he had a history of rebuilding teams and gaining success on the back of it...
One team tbf.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:46 pm
by FKAS
Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:24 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:19 am
rjjb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 8:34 am
Borthwick simply isn't up to the job, so rebuilding may take some time.
Yeah if only he had a history of rebuilding teams and gaining success on the back of it...
One team tbf.
He was central to the England rebuild under Eddie Jones and worked under Eddie as forwards coach for Japan where they surprised a few people at the world cup.
I've got a lot of confidence in him as a coach, I'm just not expecting a short term miracle turnaround.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:53 pm
by Mikey Brown
Yeah I think it’s far too early to write him off.
He did appear to be the future, I just hope this can be a learning experience rather than a blunder that throws him too far off course.
Saying that, there are more themes from Eddie Jones’s tenure continuing in than I would have liked. A fresh start after the World Cup with a better selection of assistant coaches would clearly have given him a bit more room to do his thing, though I guess it still can.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:56 pm
by Banquo
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:46 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:24 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:19 am
Yeah if only he had a history of rebuilding teams and gaining success on the back of it...
One team tbf.
He was central to the England rebuild under Eddie Jones and worked under Eddie as forwards coach for Japan where they surprised a few people at the world cup.
I've got a lot of confidence in him as a coach, I'm just not expecting a short term miracle turnaround.
again, head coach different to forwards/technical coach.
I think he lacks charisma, leadership skills, tactical breadth, strategic thinking and much understanding of back play. I'm disappointed that he hasn't got much of a grip on improving the basics yet...hope he proves me wrong. But he can't make bricks out of straw, though his conservative selections in a couple of areas haven't helped. But he ain't got much to choose from.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 3:08 pm
by FKAS
Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:56 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:46 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:24 pm
One team tbf.
He was central to the England rebuild under Eddie Jones and worked under Eddie as forwards coach for Japan where they surprised a few people at the world cup.
I've got a lot of confidence in him as a coach, I'm just not expecting a short term miracle turnaround.
again, head coach different to forwards/technical coach.
I think he lacks charisma, leadership skills, and much understanding of back play. Hope he proves me wrong. But he can't make bricks out of straw, though his conservative selections in a couple of areas haven't helped. But he ain't got much to choose from.
Dunno I've heard a few people say that he's a pretty engaging character until there's a microphone put in front of him and then the wall comes up. The presenter chappy from GBR podcast complained about it previously. Sinfield is in there for the hearts and minds stuff as well.
I can't see him going down the road of a particularly expansive team to be honest but there's not much in the way of complaints with the team he's picked for this weekend. 8/9 we know are problem areas and then it's just should George and Steward be rested.
I think some are writing him off a bit early. The games have become a bit of an endurance sport but they were under Eddie towards the end, if that could be turned around a bit I think he'd get less naysaying.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 3:17 pm
by Banquo
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 3:08 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:56 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:46 pm
He was central to the England rebuild under Eddie Jones and worked under Eddie as forwards coach for Japan where they surprised a few people at the world cup.
I've got a lot of confidence in him as a coach, I'm just not expecting a short term miracle turnaround.
again, head coach different to forwards/technical coach.
I think he lacks charisma, leadership skills, and much understanding of back play. Hope he proves me wrong. But he can't make bricks out of straw, though his conservative selections in a couple of areas haven't helped. But he ain't got much to choose from.
Dunno I've heard a few people say that he's a pretty engaging character until there's a microphone put in front of him and then the wall comes up. The presenter chappy from GBR podcast complained about it previously. Sinfield is in there for the hearts and minds stuff as well.
I can't see him going down the road of a particularly expansive team to be honest but there's not much in the way of complaints with the team he's picked for this weekend. 8/9 we know are problem areas and then it's just should George and Steward be rested.
I think some are writing him off a bit early. The games have become a bit of an endurance sport but they were under Eddie towards the end, if that could be turned around a bit I think he'd get less naysaying.
I've heard the opposite, but both are hearsay. Not naysaying him, and hope he succeeds, just observing what's happened so far. I don't want expansive per se, just efficiency in whatever plan he picks to win- winning is all at this point. I'm not complaining overly over selection, but his scrum half selection is v conservative, we know Faz will be playing....as I said, he hasn't much to work with. But I'd expect much much better basics at this stage.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 3:25 pm
by Oakboy
A conservative (or non-expansive) game can be effective against top opposition BUT it demands all players singing from the same hymn-sheet, hardly any mistakes and excellent discipline. None of the three requirements are even close to being met - yet. Arguably, all three areas have got worse during and since the 6N.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:20 pm
by Mikey Brown
Is that not true of virtually any game-plan?
I thought being a leader was Borthwick’s one indisputable strength as a player? Though I don’t know how that transfers from player to coach.
It’s very hard to judge from the outside, but got the impression he was captain at both Bath and Saracens for good reason, though wasn’t quite a good enough player to make it work for England during a poor period.
The scrumhalf selection feels to me like a lack of confidence in the pack and just hoping that having a lot of experience will allow us to make the best of mostly poor possession. I really don’t understand Care’s inclusion though.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
by p/d
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:36 pm
by Banquo
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Do we have to accept it with any question?
I'm judging what is obvious so far, whilst acknowledging that he hasn't much to work with. Progress to date on the core foundations basics thingies has been limited, and its disappointing for someone whose CV Shouts Basics.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:42 pm
by p/d
Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:36 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Do we have to accept it with any question?
I'm judging what is obvious so far, whilst acknowledging that he hasn't much to work with. Progress to date on the core foundations basics thingies has been limited, and its disappointing for someone whose CV Shouts Basics.
Far from disagreeing with you Tim - I am very much one of those fickle fans - and think we have been woeful under his tenure, but I thought we were before he took over. I just have to ‘assume’ that he has a clear plan that we will soon see take shape. If not then it is ‘Go Vitality Roses’ as I immerse myself into the mysteries of netball.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:46 pm
by Spiffy
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems. Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:17 pm
by p/d
‘His’ core. Not mine.
Please don’t let one post forever condemn me as a Faz Fan
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:25 pm
by Oakboy
Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:46 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems.
Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
Looking at this squad of 33, it's not just him, though, is it? There are quite a few others whose best is behind them.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:42 pm
by Banquo
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:17 pm
‘His’ core. Not mine.
Please don’t let one post forever condemn me as a Faz Fan
p/d and faz sitting in a tree...
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:44 pm
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:25 pm
Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:46 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems.
Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
Looking at this squad of 33, it's not just him, though, is it? There are quite a few others whose best is behind them.
....which highlights another problem, reluctant as you are to accept it. In fairness, you have championed a couple of likely lads...Willis T 'n' Zach.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 6:52 pm
by morepork
Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:46 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems. Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
This x 100. England accommodates Farrell to their detriment. It’s the single most obvious flaw in any cunning plan. I used to fear England because of their depth of talent and hard nosed pragmatism. Now I feel sorry for them.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 7:08 pm
by 16th man
Accepting we're probably going to lose to a much better grooved in unit, even if they do rotate a bit they're in a better place with their game plan, what is the worst case scenario?
Lots of easy metres through Ford's channel is the thing I'm dreading. We know he's not a bad defender, just not dominant, but if Ake goes through him a couple of times, Farrell back in ASAP is going to be the narrative.
Re: Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:15 pm
by Beasties
morepork wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 6:52 pm
Spiffy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:46 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems. Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
This x 100. England accommodates Farrell to their detriment. It’s the single most obvious flaw in any cunning plan. I used to fear England because of their depth of talent and hard nosed pragmatism. Now I feel sorry for them.
Imagine being an Eng fan and having this stiletto on top of you all that time.