RugbyRebels

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:38 am I've said it several times - we will see no real progress/development till BOTH Farrell and Ford are off the international scene.

On the one hand, apparently/reportedly, the more skilful FH, Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.

On the other hand, apparently/reportedly, Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - even though we cannot understand that and match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH but he looks to me to be capable of more than he ever showed given the right selection around him, the right match strategy and the total, permanent absence from consideration of Farrell and Ford.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:50 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:38 am I've said it several times - we will see no real progress/development till BOTH Farrell and Ford are off the international scene.

On the one hand, apparently/reportedly, the more skilful FH, Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.

On the other hand, apparently/reportedly, Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - even though we cannot understand that and match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH but he looks to me to be capable of more than he ever showed given the right selection around him, the right match strategy and the total, permanent absence from consideration of Farrell and Ford.

Several is an understatement - I’d have gone for numerous

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:32 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:42 am It’s still funny to me how quickly these threads gets OTT, with Farrell sounding like the worst player ever to be capped. It’s such a shame he was anointed near-god status so early on in his career and not forced to go away and work on the consistency of his passing, kicking, tackling - well everything, let’s be honest.

We joke about his poor passing particularly (media seemed to have turned on him over poor kicking but still never see this part of his game mentioned) but that showing on Saturday was just horrendous.

I was listening to a podcast with Sean Maitland the other day, saying how he is admittedly way, way too laid back on the pitch and especially in training, but Farrell’s presence “has me willing to run through walls for that guy”. Every moment gets your full focus and every training run gets test match intensity. It’s saccharine stuff but it does mean a lot.

It may be OTT but I don’t believe numerous players and coaches say this stuff just to suck up to him. I do think he has a huge motivating affect on those around him, but it may be more in line with Homer Simpson’s management style - “everybody always said they have to work a lot harder when I’m around”.

I can see why that is an absolute dream for a coach, but unfortunately it isn’t matched by the consistency of his skillset and his ability to direct/rally his team when the plan isn’t working. As well as the dearth at 12 leading to years of wonky, imbalanced midfields.

I think about that France game in the 6 nations where we were getting absolutely battered. You could feel the mood change a bit when he came on, and honestly when he made that move come together down the right it felt for a moment like all the fanboys might be right.

Again I don’t think he deserves to be starting, and the status he holds is damaging to everyone (including him) but I do think he’s a useful presence in the squad and the next best thing to being able to send a coach on to the field if a game-plan needs adjusting.

His problem has been when a game doesn’t play out the way it’s expected to he just continues hammering plan A into the ground. A coach seeing how it’s unfolding, where to attack and where to change things up, whether we need people to stop making easy yards down the 10 channel or get an extra set of eyes/hands to assist the flyhalf, does offer a lot of value.

I don’t really trust his ability to judge this stuff himself though.

Let’s also consider that while I rate Ford pretty much as highly as any of you he has also had dozens of game where he is just belting the ball away with little gain and losing ground in defence. You’d think he plays like that NZ/Scotland game every week.

Yep, people overreact, and do so for Ford in the opposite direction, but it’s probably due to this mythical status he’s had for near on a decade - the need to pick him first and not worry about team balance started immediately: he was shoehorned into the England team at 20 years old at OC… OC ffs, he’s a slow flyhalf…
My personal dislike of the situation is twofold. Firstly, he’s blocked players who, imo, are more talented, eg Ford for England and Goode for Sarries. That might just be what I want in my 10 but I believe he’s blocked those two reaching their potential when he is inferior to both. Secondly, and this is the main one, is the fact he’s lionised due to he non playing qualities eg being a winner, a great leader of men, work rate etc. You never hear how he has the best pass in the country, the tactical acumen to change tactics as a game evolves etc which is the praise I want aimed at a 10. These leads on to how everyone hangs the praise for his playing talents on place kicking, eg when he misses a sitter but then nails the next one as proof of iceman status or consistent lauding of his place kicking acumen when in recent years Ford has a higher %, when this hasn’t been warranted for a while if ever - his kicking % has never been truly world class, ie 85% or above, iirc.
He’s a decent test player and a good club player, albeit with an armchair ride 90% of the time, but the idea he’s world class is for the birds imo.
Tldr, he’s elevation to this near undroppable status doesn’t feel meritocratic if based on on-field performance.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:03 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:32 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:42 am It’s still funny to me how quickly these threads gets OTT, with Farrell sounding like the worst player ever to be capped. It’s such a shame he was anointed near-god status so early on in his career and not forced to go away and work on the consistency of his passing, kicking, tackling - well everything, let’s be honest.

We joke about his poor passing particularly (media seemed to have turned on him over poor kicking but still never see this part of his game mentioned) but that showing on Saturday was just horrendous.

I was listening to a podcast with Sean Maitland the other day, saying how he is admittedly way, way too laid back on the pitch and especially in training, but Farrell’s presence “has me willing to run through walls for that guy”. Every moment gets your full focus and every training run gets test match intensity. It’s saccharine stuff but it does mean a lot.

It may be OTT but I don’t believe numerous players and coaches say this stuff just to suck up to him. I do think he has a huge motivating affect on those around him, but it may be more in line with Homer Simpson’s management style - “everybody always said they have to work a lot harder when I’m around”.

I can see why that is an absolute dream for a coach, but unfortunately it isn’t matched by the consistency of his skillset and his ability to direct/rally his team when the plan isn’t working. As well as the dearth at 12 leading to years of wonky, imbalanced midfields.

I think about that France game in the 6 nations where we were getting absolutely battered. You could feel the mood change a bit when he came on, and honestly when he made that move come together down the right it felt for a moment like all the fanboys might be right.

Again I don’t think he deserves to be starting, and the status he holds is damaging to everyone (including him) but I do think he’s a useful presence in the squad and the next best thing to being able to send a coach on to the field if a game-plan needs adjusting.

His problem has been when a game doesn’t play out the way it’s expected to he just continues hammering plan A into the ground. A coach seeing how it’s unfolding, where to attack and where to change things up, whether we need people to stop making easy yards down the 10 channel or get an extra set of eyes/hands to assist the flyhalf, does offer a lot of value.

I don’t really trust his ability to judge this stuff himself though.

Let’s also consider that while I rate Ford pretty much as highly as any of you he has also had dozens of game where he is just belting the ball away with little gain and losing ground in defence. You’d think he plays like that NZ/Scotland game every week.

Yep, people overreact, and do so for Ford in the opposite direction, but it’s probably due to this mythical status he’s had for near on a decade - the need to pick him first and not worry about team balance started immediately: he was shoehorned into the England team at 20 years old at OC… OC ffs, he’s a slow flyhalf…
My personal dislike of the situation is twofold. Firstly, he’s blocked players who, imo, are more talented, eg Ford for England and Goode for Sarries. That might just be what I want in my 10 but I believe he’s blocked those two reaching their potential when he is inferior to both. Secondly, and this is the main one, is the fact he’s lionised due to he non playing qualities eg being a winner, a great leader of men, work rate etc. You never hear how he has the best pass in the country, the tactical acumen to change tactics as a game evolves etc which is the praise I want aimed at a 10. These leads on to how everyone hangs the praise for his playing talents on place kicking, eg when he misses a sitter but then nails the next one as proof of iceman status or consistent lauding of his place kicking acumen when in recent years Ford has a higher %, when this hasn’t been warranted for a while if ever - his kicking % has never been truly world class, ie 85% or above, iirc.
He’s a decent test player and a good club player, albeit with an armchair ride 90% of the time, but the idea he’s world class is for the birds imo.
Tldr, he’s elevation to this near undroppable status doesn’t feel meritocratic if based on on-field performance.

Coaches do value the off the field stuff. Someone setting standards, geeing everyone up, always positive and enthusiastic. It does matter. I dont think there's any doubt that Farrell is a committed professional and team player who does set a good example. Coaches like that.
I also think he's not quite the dreadful player we make out at times. Sure he has his limitations but enough coaches have picked him and trusted him at 10 or 12, and to be made captain regularly.
My hope is that post WC he will be stood down. Clearly what we have now is a bodge that will take us through the WC but this cannot go on. We need to field our best players in their best positions and invest time and effort in nurturing some talent, particularly in our backs. The days of someone filling in at inside centre have to end.
For now, Farrell will play as he was always going to play.

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:21 am Anyhoo. Daly to wear the 13 shirt with Marchant on the wing. Clear plan to swap them for defence and attack............

... and yet they still overlook Steward at 12. The fools

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:49 am Apparently over 6k tickets still unsold for the QF. I think people would rather shit in their hands and clap that watch this shite.

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:21 am Anyhoo. Daly to wear the 13 shirt with Marchant on the wing. Clear plan to swap them for defence and attack............

... and yet they still overlook Steward at 12. The fools

Danno wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:07 am The best thing about Farrell is he'll be coaching as soon as he retires from playing so uhh....

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:26 am

Danno wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:07 am The best thing about Farrell is he'll be coaching as soon as he retires from playing so uhh....

but you worry he'll just waltz in to a high level coaching position because of that intangible, icey aura.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:38 am
Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.
Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH

fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:03 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:32 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:42 am It’s still funny to me how quickly these threads gets OTT, with Farrell sounding like the worst player ever to be capped. It’s such a shame he was anointed near-god status so early on in his career and not forced to go away and work on the consistency of his passing, kicking, tackling - well everything, let’s be honest.

We joke about his poor passing particularly (media seemed to have turned on him over poor kicking but still never see this part of his game mentioned) but that showing on Saturday was just horrendous.

I was listening to a podcast with Sean Maitland the other day, saying how he is admittedly way, way too laid back on the pitch and especially in training, but Farrell’s presence “has me willing to run through walls for that guy”. Every moment gets your full focus and every training run gets test match intensity. It’s saccharine stuff but it does mean a lot.

It may be OTT but I don’t believe numerous players and coaches say this stuff just to suck up to him. I do think he has a huge motivating affect on those around him, but it may be more in line with Homer Simpson’s management style - “everybody always said they have to work a lot harder when I’m around”.

I can see why that is an absolute dream for a coach, but unfortunately it isn’t matched by the consistency of his skillset and his ability to direct/rally his team when the plan isn’t working. As well as the dearth at 12 leading to years of wonky, imbalanced midfields.

I think about that France game in the 6 nations where we were getting absolutely battered. You could feel the mood change a bit when he came on, and honestly when he made that move come together down the right it felt for a moment like all the fanboys might be right.

Again I don’t think he deserves to be starting, and the status he holds is damaging to everyone (including him) but I do think he’s a useful presence in the squad and the next best thing to being able to send a coach on to the field if a game-plan needs adjusting.

His problem has been when a game doesn’t play out the way it’s expected to he just continues hammering plan A into the ground. A coach seeing how it’s unfolding, where to attack and where to change things up, whether we need people to stop making easy yards down the 10 channel or get an extra set of eyes/hands to assist the flyhalf, does offer a lot of value.

I don’t really trust his ability to judge this stuff himself though.

Let’s also consider that while I rate Ford pretty much as highly as any of you he has also had dozens of game where he is just belting the ball away with little gain and losing ground in defence. You’d think he plays like that NZ/Scotland game every week.

Yep, people overreact, and do so for Ford in the opposite direction, but it’s probably due to this mythical status he’s had for near on a decade - the need to pick him first and not worry about team balance started immediately: he was shoehorned into the England team at 20 years old at OC… OC ffs, he’s a slow flyhalf…
My personal dislike of the situation is twofold. Firstly, he’s blocked players who, imo, are more talented, eg Ford for England and Goode for Sarries. That might just be what I want in my 10 but I believe he’s blocked those two reaching their potential when he is inferior to both. Secondly, and this is the main one, is the fact he’s lionised due to he non playing qualities eg being a winner, a great leader of men, work rate etc. You never hear how he has the best pass in the country, the tactical acumen to change tactics as a game evolves etc which is the praise I want aimed at a 10. These leads on to how everyone hangs the praise for his playing talents on place kicking, eg when he misses a sitter but then nails the next one as proof of iceman status or consistent lauding of his place kicking acumen when in recent years Ford has a higher %, when this hasn’t been warranted for a while if ever - his kicking % has never been truly world class, ie 85% or above, iirc.
He’s a decent test player and a good club player, albeit with an armchair ride 90% of the time, but the idea he’s world class is for the birds imo.
Tldr, he’s elevation to this near undroppable status doesn’t feel meritocratic if based on on-field performance.

Coaches do value the off the field stuff. Someone setting standards, geeing everyone up, always positive and enthusiastic. It does matter. I dont think there's any doubt that Farrell is a committed professional and team player who does set a good example. Coaches like that.
I also think he's not quite the dreadful player we make out at times. Sure he has his limitations but enough coaches have picked him and trusted him at 10 or 12, and to be made captain regularly.
My hope is that post WC he will be stood down. Clearly what we have now is a bodge that will take us through the WC but this cannot go on. We need to field our best players in their best positions and invest time and effort in nurturing some talent, particularly in our backs. The days of someone filling in at inside centre have to end.
For now, Farrell will play as he was always going to play.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:49 am Apparently over 6k tickets still unsold for the QF. I think people would rather shit in their hands and clap that watch this shite.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:44 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:38 am
Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.
Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH

see, do you not see what the root issue is here.(.....parking Faz for a second...)

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:01 pmOh god.

Danno wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:07 am The best thing about Farrell is he'll be coaching as soon as he retires from playing so uhh....

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:44 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:44 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:38 am
Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.
Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH

see, do you not see what the root issue is here.(.....parking Faz for a second...)

I may not be very bright but I've never stopped learning from you. Please enlighten me . . .

Beasties wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:13 am

Stom wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:48 am The biggest failing of the past decade of England is that George Ford has not gone down in history as an England legend.

He's ridiculously talented, but the mismanagement is insane.

Oh, and as a second thought...whoever said having Farrell on the bench for his 'reliable goal kicking'... I'm pretty sure Smith's kicking is better than Farrell's since Smith broke through. And that's saying something considering how hit and miss Smith was in his first season.

I'd love to see a breakdown of our ruck stats, too, with and without Lawes. I just can't get my head around him, either. He does perform well every now and again, but he still negatively impacts our breakdown. Oh, with and without Billy, too. It's just impossible not to think that a backrow with Curry, Earl, and Ludlam/another flank isn't going to be quick to rucks.

There is so much that has been puzzling about Eng for many years. This WC campaign feels like SB’s gradually morphed into Eddie, and Eddie never left. I had high hopes that we’d see a better team and gameplan, but the brief hope at the start of the campaign has just had a big floppy heavy blanket thrown on top of it.

If Fiji actually get their act together they might win. That wouldn’t be the best outcome imo. I’m now actually hoping we get through so that SB selects the same team which will result in the inevitable utter rodgering in the SF, and that will bring about a real change of attitude from everyone involved. I’m beyond sick of this. How anyone can liken Farrell to Saint Jonny I have no idea, there really is no comparison.

jngf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:33 pm
It’s a bit like wondering how could anyone still defend bojo after stinking out 10 Downing Street during a national crisis

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:53 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:49 am Apparently over 6k tickets still unsold for the QF. I think people would rather shit in their hands and clap that watch this shite.

TBH I think that's more about ticket and travel prices.