Transfer news, rumours, suggestions, frenzied speculation, and outright lies - Season 2023-24

[Mellsblue]

I can’t say I’ve had the thought recently that England aren’t winning things because of a player being unavailable in France.

We can categorically state we’re not winning anything with the status quo.

Second and third at the last two world cups. Four European cup wins in the last eights years. Three 6N titles in those 8 years.

Pretty solid last two world cup cycles. Can't really say we aren't winning things or placing well.

There's certainly room for improvement but devaluing the Premiership isn't the way to get there. Currently the possibility of international caps and the £20k a time appearance fee keeps some big names in England.

We obvs have very different idea of what winning looks like.

[Oakboy]

Tom Willis has been in the match day squad for five rounds of the PRC and all seven rounds of the Prem. Two off the bench starting the other five games. A sound bit of rotation isn't a bad thing and he's playing plenty. In his final season at Wasps he played 1,304 mins (similar last season with Wasps/Bordeaux) and he's up to 767 already this season. Makes sense to bring in BillyV to take on some of the load.

Farrell over Itoje is stupid long term but in the short term does make sense. There will be second rows on the market next summer. Not much in the way of flyhalfs on the market.

Agreed. That's the point, though. What is good for Saracens is bad for England! Itoje is far more important than Farrell to the international set-up. That's one example but is it a trend?

Add on the SA influence at Sale and possibly the Welsh core at Exeter. At a time when three clubs have gone, should the RFU be finding a way to support clubs more in developing a dominance of EQP?

In principle you'd appear to have a point, but in practice it's pretty hard to argue that the Du Preez twins have had a negative impact on English back row options, or that their older brother has been blocking an outstanding candidate at 10 or 13 getting game time. There has been a bit of a revolving door of others but they've generally trended to the higher quality, good to have improving the standard of the league end of the spectrum.

I certainly like watching the one who played FH but moving him there to do so in Ford's absence, by definition, prevented an EQP wearing the shirt. Whether Sale had one is not really the argument because, should stronger EQP representation rules exist, they would have had to have done. I was only suggesting that if we lost three clubs, as we did, there was less excuse - together with my overall doubts about what is 'best for English rugby' (even how we define it).

If I was going to start a 10 team premiership today, I'd have a 'maximum 2 non-EQPs in the XV and 3 in the 23' rule. Dealing with the status quo is obviously different and harder.

[Puja]

We can categorically state we’re not winning anything with the status quo.

Yeah but what were we even missing? Kieran Brookes? Zach Henry?

I’m not arguing that we’re missing anyone under the current rules. I’m arguing that allowing our best players to move abroad for a one or two years to experience a different league and coaches may improve that player for England in the long term - it seemed to work for Marchant - whilst also allowing younger EQP to play more games in the Prem, therefore benefitting England in the even longer term, and/or spending the spare £££ on test players from other nations.

As discussed earlier in the thread vis-a-vis Itoje, spending the spare £££ on foreign test players doesn't get you as much bang for your buck as home-grown quality that's subsidised by loyalty and EPS money. Plus "spare money" is likely to be a myth once wage inflation from letting the French league compete on level terms for EQP kicks in - any money saved is likely to be lost trying to keep your other EQP.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Yeah but what were we even missing? Kieran Brookes? Zach Henry?

I’m not arguing that we’re missing anyone under the current rules. I’m arguing that allowing our best players to move abroad for a one or two years to experience a different league and coaches may improve that player for England in the long term - it seemed to work for Marchant - whilst also allowing younger EQP to play more games in the Prem, therefore benefitting England in the even longer term, and/or spending the spare £££ on test players from other nations.

As discussed earlier in the thread vis-a-vis Itoje, spending the spare £££ on foreign test players doesn't get you as much bang for your buck as home-grown quality that's subsidised by loyalty and EPS money. Plus "spare money" is likely to be a myth once wage inflation from letting the French league compete on level terms for EQP kicks in - any money saved is likely to be lost trying to keep your other EQP.

Puja

It doesn’t but does the allure for new eyeballs of an All Black for 1 or 2 seasons outweigh another 1 or 2 seasons of watching Itoje?
The French league can only absorb so many foreigners, both JIFF and €€€, and the PRL salary cap, plus mooted min squad size, will mean salaries could only rise so far, it at all.

[Puja]

I’m not arguing that we’re missing anyone under the current rules. I’m arguing that allowing our best players to move abroad for a one or two years to experience a different league and coaches may improve that player for England in the long term - it seemed to work for Marchant - whilst also allowing younger EQP to play more games in the Prem, therefore benefitting England in the even longer term, and/or spending the spare £££ on test players from other nations.

As discussed earlier in the thread vis-a-vis Itoje, spending the spare £££ on foreign test players doesn't get you as much bang for your buck as home-grown quality that's subsidised by loyalty and EPS money. Plus "spare money" is likely to be a myth once wage inflation from letting the French league compete on level terms for EQP kicks in - any money saved is likely to be lost trying to keep your other EQP.

Puja

It doesn’t but does the allure for new eyeballs of an All Black for 1 or 2 seasons outweigh another 1 or 2 seasons of watching Itoje?
The French league can only absorb so many foreigners, both JIFF and €€€, and the PRL salary cap, plus mooted min squad size, will mean salaries could only rise so far, it at all.

How would we get an All Black, considering we can't afford to compete for them now?

There are 30 teams across the T14 and Pro D2 - there's quite a bit of room there. And min squad size may just mean that there's a bunch of academy players on minimum wage to bulk it out.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Regan Grace training in/with Bath

Thought to be rehabbing locally, rather than a first look, but... It's gotta be a first look too

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/ot ... by-8939629

[Mellsblue]

As discussed earlier in the thread vis-a-vis Itoje, spending the spare £££ on foreign test players doesn't get you as much bang for your buck as home-grown quality that's subsidised by loyalty and EPS money. Plus "spare money" is likely to be a myth once wage inflation from letting the French league compete on level terms for EQP kicks in - any money saved is likely to be lost trying to keep your other EQP.

Puja

It doesn’t but does the allure for new eyeballs of an All Black for 1 or 2 seasons outweigh another 1 or 2 seasons of watching Itoje?
The French league can only absorb so many foreigners, both JIFF and €€€, and the PRL salary cap, plus mooted min squad size, will mean salaries could only rise so far, it at all.

How would we get an All Black, considering we can't afford to compete for them now?

There are 30 teams across the T14 and Pro D2 - there's quite a bit of room there. And min squad size may just mean that there's a bunch of academy players on minimum wage to bulk it out.

Puja

With the salary cap going up I’m sure we can tempt somebody.
Academy players getting more Prem action? Brilliant news.

[FKAS]

It doesn’t but does the allure for new eyeballs of an All Black for 1 or 2 seasons outweigh another 1 or 2 seasons of watching Itoje?
The French league can only absorb so many foreigners, both JIFF and €€€, and the PRL salary cap, plus mooted min squad size, will mean salaries could only rise so far, it at all.

How would we get an All Black, considering we can't afford to compete for them now?

There are 30 teams across the T14 and Pro D2 - there's quite a bit of room there. And min squad size may just mean that there's a bunch of academy players on minimum wage to bulk it out.

Puja

With the salary cap going up I’m sure we can tempt somebody.
Academy players getting more Prem action? Brilliant news.

I doubt it. France is only getting a few, Japan is mopping them up. More money, shorter season and a lot closer to home.

[Puja]

It doesn’t but does the allure for new eyeballs of an All Black for 1 or 2 seasons outweigh another 1 or 2 seasons of watching Itoje?
The French league can only absorb so many foreigners, both JIFF and €€€, and the PRL salary cap, plus mooted min squad size, will mean salaries could only rise so far, it at all.

How would we get an All Black, considering we can't afford to compete for them now?

There are 30 teams across the T14 and Pro D2 - there's quite a bit of room there. And min squad size may just mean that there's a bunch of academy players on minimum wage to bulk it out.

Puja

With the salary cap going up I’m sure we can tempt somebody.
Academy players getting more Prem action? Brilliant news.

In a weakened league, leaving them less hardened and stymieing their development? Less brilliant.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

How would we get an All Black, considering we can't afford to compete for them now?

There are 30 teams across the T14 and Pro D2 - there's quite a bit of room there. And min squad size may just mean that there's a bunch of academy players on minimum wage to bulk it out.

Puja

With the salary cap going up I’m sure we can tempt somebody.
Academy players getting more Prem action? Brilliant news.

I doubt it. France is only getting a few, Japan is mopping them up. More money, shorter season and a lot closer to home.

I guess we’ll never know but we could perhaps hold on to Randradra, Feikitoa, Skelton etc and perhaps tempt the likes of Kolisi, Nyakane and Whitelock. Imagine if Sarries announced that they were losing Itoje for two years but were bring in Etzebeth or de Jager to replace him. Everyone wins.
Anyone who has looked at the Prem in the last five years and thinks ‘Yep, that works. Nothing to change there.’ is delusional.
Interesting that nobody has countered the contention that that one or two years of rugby in a different country might be in the long term interests of player and country.

[Mellsblue]

How would we get an All Black, considering we can't afford to compete for them now?

There are 30 teams across the T14 and Pro D2 - there's quite a bit of room there. And min squad size may just mean that there's a bunch of academy players on minimum wage to bulk it out.

Puja

With the salary cap going up I’m sure we can tempt somebody.
Academy players getting more Prem action? Brilliant news.

In a weakened league, leaving them less hardened and stymieing their development? Less brilliant.

Puja

It’s better than not playing/playing less, surely.

[Puja]

With the salary cap going up I’m sure we can tempt somebody.
Academy players getting more Prem action? Brilliant news.

In a weakened league, leaving them less hardened and stymieing their development? Less brilliant.

Puja

It’s better than not playing/playing less, surely.

Not really - players don't get better playing in a mediocre league of also-rans, has-beens, and bargain signings. Look at cricket and how little the County Championship used to do to prepare batsmen for Test cricket - we'd pick someone who'd been scoring well for their County only to see them get utterly destroyed by Test Match bowling. They had never faced that kind of quality before and discovered whole new flaws in their techniques that just didn't get tested by the average bowling in the county game.

If we're talking about getting academy players more playing time, we should pivot to another favourite unresolvable board argument - having a functional second tier.

Puja

[Banquo]

In a weakened league, leaving them less hardened and stymieing their development? Less brilliant.

Puja

It’s better than not playing/playing less, surely.

Not really - players don't get better playing in a mediocre league of also-rans, has-beens, and bargain signings. Look at cricket and how little the County Championship used to do to prepare batsmen for Test cricket - we'd pick someone who'd been scoring well for their County only to see them get utterly destroyed by Test Match bowling. They had never faced that kind of quality before and discovered whole new flaws in their techniques that just didn't get tested by the average bowling in the county game.

If we're talking about getting academy players more playing time, we should pivot to another favourite unresolvable board argument - having a functional second tier.

Puja

Our league is already veering towards mediocrity tbh.

[Puja]

It’s better than not playing/playing less, surely.

Not really - players don't get better playing in a mediocre league of also-rans, has-beens, and bargain signings. Look at cricket and how little the County Championship used to do to prepare batsmen for Test cricket - we'd pick someone who'd been scoring well for their County only to see them get utterly destroyed by Test Match bowling. They had never faced that kind of quality before and discovered whole new flaws in their techniques that just didn't get tested by the average bowling in the county game.

If we're talking about getting academy players more playing time, we should pivot to another favourite unresolvable board argument - having a functional second tier.

Puja

Our league is already veering towards mediocrity tbh.

Not denying that in the slightest. I'm hoping a consolidation down to 10 clubs and avoiding international clashes will help with that and we can start turning the ship around, but I'm often accused of being an optimist.

Puja

[Banquo]

Not really - players don't get better playing in a mediocre league of also-rans, has-beens, and bargain signings. Look at cricket and how little the County Championship used to do to prepare batsmen for Test cricket - we'd pick someone who'd been scoring well for their County only to see them get utterly destroyed by Test Match bowling. They had never faced that kind of quality before and discovered whole new flaws in their techniques that just didn't get tested by the average bowling in the county game.

If we're talking about getting academy players more playing time, we should pivot to another favourite unresolvable board argument - having a functional second tier.

Puja

Our league is already veering towards mediocrity tbh.

Not denying that in the slightest. I'm hoping a consolidation down to 10 clubs and avoiding international clashes will help with that and we can start turning the ship around, but I'm often accused of being an optimist.

Puja

RFU, PRL, money, DCMS, Championship. Its all a bit of a worry. We may be down to less than 10 clubs quite soon too.

Yours

Eeyore

[Mellsblue]

In a weakened league, leaving them less hardened and stymieing their development? Less brilliant.

Puja

It’s better than not playing/playing less, surely.

Not really - players don't get better playing in a mediocre league of also-rans, has-beens, and bargain signings. Look at cricket and how little the County Championship used to do to prepare batsmen for Test cricket - we'd pick someone who'd been scoring well for their County only to see them get utterly destroyed by Test Match bowling. They had never faced that kind of quality before and discovered whole new flaws in their techniques that just didn't get tested by the average bowling in the county game.

If we're talking about getting academy players more playing time, we should pivot to another favourite unresolvable board argument - having a functional second tier.

Puja

‘also-rans, has-beens, and bargain signings’
lol. I’ll leave it here.

[Slater582]

I've got mixed feelings about all this, especially in terms of deciding what is best for English rugby. Saracens playing BV ahead of Willis, making Farrell marquee and (possibly) pushing Itoje out to France is arguably not for the good of English rugby. I'm starting to wonder if we are getting things wrong.

Tom Willis has been in the match day squad for five rounds of the PRC and all seven rounds of the Prem. Two off the bench starting the other five games. A sound bit of rotation isn't a bad thing and he's playing plenty. In his final season at Wasps he played 1,304 mins (similar last season with Wasps/Bordeaux) and he's up to 767 already this season. Makes sense to bring in BillyV to take on some of the load.

Farrell over Itoje is stupid long term but in the short term does make sense. There will be second rows on the market next summer. Not much in the way of flyhalfs on the market.

Agreed. That's the point, though. What is good for Saracens is bad for England! Itoje is far more important than Farrell to the international set-up. That's one example but is it a trend?

Add on the SA influence at Sale and possibly the Welsh core at Exeter. At a time when three clubs have gone, should the RFU be finding a way to support clubs more in developing a dominance of EQP?

According to this article from last year the RFU have been working on that.

[Mellsblue]

Rumours of RG Snyman to Bath next season.

[FKAS]

Rumours of RG Snyman to Bath next season.

Will keep the physios busy.

[jimKRFC]

Pat Lam rumored to be looking at Lovejoy Chawatama to replace Sinckler (if he leaves).

Can't say I know enough him to comment if that's a decent replacement...

[Margin_Walker]

Pat Lam rumored to be looking at Lovejoy Chawatama to replace Sinckler (if he leaves).

Can't say I know enough him to comment if that's a decent replacement...

Great guy. Loves a scrum and tends to be rock solid there. Doesn't do a lot else around the park.

[Puja]

Pat Lam rumored to be looking at Lovejoy Chawatama to replace Sinckler (if he leaves).

Can't say I know enough him to comment if that's a decent replacement...

Great guy. Loves a scrum and tends to be rock solid there. Doesn't do a lot else around the park.

TBH, that's an upgrade on the Sinckler that Bristol have had for most of his time there, and at a fraction of the price.

Puja

[jimKRFC]

Pat Lam rumored to be looking at Lovejoy Chawatama to replace Sinckler (if he leaves).

Can't say I know enough him to comment if that's a decent replacement...

Great guy. Loves a scrum and tends to be rock solid there. Doesn't do a lot else around the park.

TBH, that's an upgrade on the Sinckler that Bristol have had for most of his time there, and at a fraction of the price.

Puja

We can stick the change in the Itoje bucket...

[twitchy]

His parents were big Ian McShane fans apparently.

[Mikey Brown]

Pat Lam rumored to be looking at Lovejoy Chawatama to replace Sinckler (if he leaves).

Can't say I know enough him to comment if that's a decent replacement...

Is he at Quins or did I imagine that? I don’t feel like I’ve seen him at all. Shows how much attention I pay to front rows I guess.