Terf me out...

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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

morepork wrote:Impact factor of the referenced published matter Donald, not your impact factor. The volume of citations received is a metric used to assess a journals impact. Nature, for example, has an impact factor of 41.6. The journal you linked with the editorial has an impact factor of 1.27. Note, editorial, not article. Nothing to do with "high brow". It's science bitch.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
Sarcasm is the best form of wit by far, and you should know me well enough by now to know that you need to speak clearly and make no assumptions about my ability to comprehend your posts.

(Srsly, how TF am I supposed to know what you meant by impact factor, or know how to look up a journal's impact factor, or even understand that its something I need to be aware of prior to reading something in said journal?) Out of interest, whats the impact factor of the journal where Dr Harper published her much quoted research paper?

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Mikey Brown
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Mikey Brown »

I’m just tossing this in the mix too because I’d read a few references in this thread to Semenya being ‘intersex’ and wasn’t sure if that had ever actually been clarified or not.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconvers ... ort-116448
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morepork
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Re: RE: Re: Terf me out...

Post by morepork »

Donny osmond wrote:
morepork wrote:Impact factor of the referenced published matter Donald, not your impact factor. The volume of citations received is a metric used to assess a journals impact. Nature, for example, has an impact factor of 41.6. The journal you linked with the editorial has an impact factor of 1.27. Note, editorial, not article. Nothing to do with "high brow". It's science bitch.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
Sarcasm is the best form of wit by far, and you should know me well enough by now to know that you need to speak clearly and make no assumptions about my ability to comprehend your posts.

(Srsly, how TF am I supposed to know what you meant by impact factor, or know how to look up a journal's impact factor, or even understand that its something I need to be aware of prior to reading something in said journal?) Out of interest, whats the impact factor of the journal where Dr Harper published her much quoted research paper?

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Coco
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Coco »

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m just tossing this in the mix too because I’d read a few references in this thread to Semenya being ‘intersex’ and wasn’t sure if that had ever actually been clarified or not.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconvers ... ort-116448
I believe I read in the actual court documents that she has testes that are internal (have not dropped)... or it was eluded to the fact that she does for privacy concerns.
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

morepork wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:
morepork wrote:Impact factor of the referenced published matter Donald, not your impact factor. The volume of citations received is a metric used to assess a journals impact. Nature, for example, has an impact factor of 41.6. The journal you linked with the editorial has an impact factor of 1.27. Note, editorial, not article. Nothing to do with "high brow". It's science bitch.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
Sarcasm is the best form of wit by far, and you should know me well enough by now to know that you need to speak clearly and make no assumptions about my ability to comprehend your posts.

(Srsly, how TF am I supposed to know what you meant by impact factor, or know how to look up a journal's impact factor, or even understand that its something I need to be aware of prior to reading something in said journal?) Out of interest, whats the impact factor of the journal where Dr Harper published her much quoted research paper?

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I'm not your slave. You do it.
Looked at 2 websites and they both need a log in and I'm not that motivated to set myself up with an account. Are you talking about the last one I posted about disability? Cos that would be pretty disingenuous, and a poor way of distracting from the content of the two letters I also posted.

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

Coco wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:I’m just tossing this in the mix too because I’d read a few references in this thread to Semenya being ‘intersex’ and wasn’t sure if that had ever actually been clarified or not.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconvers ... ort-116448
I believe I read in the actual court documents that she has testes that are internal (have not dropped)... or it was eluded to the fact that she does for privacy concerns.
IAAF officials called her biologically male.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/spor ... -show.html

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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morepork
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Terf me out...

Post by morepork »

Donny osmond wrote:
morepork wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:
Sarcasm is the best form of wit by far, and you should know me well enough by now to know that you need to speak clearly and make no assumptions about my ability to comprehend your posts.

(Srsly, how TF am I supposed to know what you meant by impact factor, or know how to look up a journal's impact factor, or even understand that its something I need to be aware of prior to reading something in said journal?) Out of interest, whats the impact factor of the journal where Dr Harper published her much quoted research paper?

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I'm not your slave. You do it.
Looked at 2 websites and they both need a log in and I'm not that motivated to set myself up with an account. Are you talking about the last one I posted about disability? Cos that would be pretty disingenuous, and a poor way of distracting from the content of the two letters I also posted.

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I'm not getting in the mud with you Donald. Here, fill yer boots:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
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Donny osmond
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

Here's a longer article that will do nothing for my claims of objectivity

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Donny osmond
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

morepork wrote:
Donny osmond wrote:
morepork wrote:

I'm not your slave. You do it.
Looked at 2 websites and they both need a log in and I'm not that motivated to set myself up with an account. Are you talking about the last one I posted about disability? Cos that would be pretty disingenuous, and a poor way of distracting from the content of the two letters I also posted.

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I'm not getting in the mud with you Donald. Here, fill yer boots:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
You were talking about disability and society! Ha! You're in the mud son, a muddy science bitch.

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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morepork
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by morepork »

Oh my good god...
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Coco
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Coco »

Was reading that Semenya was complaining that the birth control pills and/or hormonal medications she was taking to control testosterone were making her get headaches, feel ill, etc. My first thought was... NO KIDDING! Non trans, non intersex women have been complaining about that for years... lol... its no fun!
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

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Eugene Wrayburn
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Eugene Wrayburn »

Coco wrote:Was reading that Semenya was complaining that the birth control pills and/or hormonal medications she was taking to control testosterone were making her get headaches, feel ill, etc. My first thought was... NO KIDDING! Non trans, non intersex women have been complaining about that for years... lol... its no fun!
Quite.
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Eugene Wrayburn
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Eugene Wrayburn »



I've heard a fair amount of this recently. There was aggression against lesbians at an Edinburgh Pride march as well. It bears pretty much all the hallmarks of male privilege when denied.
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

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Donny osmond
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

Back in your box, women

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Donny osmond
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

There does seem to be a growing push back against trans activism... in the week Australian Cricket gave themselves a big pat on the back for 'allowing' males to compete in womens cricket, the country's Senior Australian of the Year, and pediatrician, signed off on a letter to the RACP and health minister...

Cited is a lack of evidence, guidance or support in the use of puberty blockers, to the extent that it is questioned if gender transitioning equates to child abuse. Strong stuff.

https://www.academia.edu/40042239/Gende ... _Responses

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Donny osmond
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

Anyone who happily just accepts the "trans women are women" mantra might want to read this and try answering some of the questions it raises...

https://medium.com/@s.r.allen/if-transw ... 6121bdd926

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Stom
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Re: Terf me out...

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Donny osmond wrote:Anyone who happily just accepts the "trans women are women" mantra might want to read this and try answering some of the questions it raises...

https://medium.com/@s.r.allen/if-transw ... 6121bdd926

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I'm not going to read that, Donny.

But it seems like you're putting 3 arguments together and taking the view of 2 to inform the 3rd.

What %age of women compete in high level sports?

In the grand scheme of things, what does it matter?

Children...It doesn't sit right with me in the slightest, but who am I to talk, I'm no expert.

General trans women...

If they want to be women, they can be women. Seriously, who cares? They're not going to be doing anything to hurt you, they just want to live their lives as a woman, not a man. It's not their job to look after the feelings of others, it's their job to look after their own feelings. We shouldn't make them feel bad for wanting to feel better about and within themselves!

Treat trans women as women, because they fucking want to be.

That's the whole debate, ffs! Treat me with respect and respect my right to make the life choices I make.

Don't conflate the debate around trans women with high profile sports or puberty blockers. They are 3 different things.
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Digby »

Stom wrote:
Treat trans women as women, because they fucking want to be.

That's the whole debate, ffs! Treat me with respect and respect my right to make the life choices I make.
If trans people are free to claim their identify/gender/sex why are others not free to make their own judgement on that? I doubt most people are going to care, or at least they're rarely if ever going to actually think about it, but it seems hard to argue for the right for people to choose for themselves whilst simultaneously telling people they're not free to choose for themselves
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Stom
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Stom »

Digby wrote:
Stom wrote:
Treat trans women as women, because they fucking want to be.

That's the whole debate, ffs! Treat me with respect and respect my right to make the life choices I make.
If trans people are free to claim their identify/gender/sex why are others not free to make their own judgement on that? I doubt most people are going to care, or at least they're rarely if ever going to actually think about it, but it seems hard to argue for the right for people to choose for themselves whilst simultaneously telling people they're not free to choose for themselves
As with a lot you write, I'm not sure I follow?

Why are people not free to choose for themselves? If I thought I was a woman in a man's body, I could go and get realigned starting today. I don't, but just because I'm in the 95%+ who are like that doesn't mean I should dictate to the tiny minority who do feel like that.

Debates that focus on "But what about the passport" "But what about the toilets" "But what about professional sport" are focusing on what are tiny details in the grand scheme of things to distract from the point:

This person wants to be treated in this way.

Of course you don't need to respect it, per se. That was Jordan Peterson's argument about the pronouns - he didn't want to be dictated to, even if he would naturally act in the prescribed way, the prescription was the problem.

But it's kind of human decency to do so.

Will people exploit it?

Yes!

But will people exploit tax systems? Yes! Do we scrap them and just have libertarians in charge? No.

Will people exploit crypto currency? Yes! Do we ban them outright? No.

Will people exploit rules on foreign players in rugby? Yes! Do we get ban them? No.

You can't hurt the lives of thousands of minorities just because a minuscule minority of that minority MAY exploit the system.

And you can't base your discussion on technicalities. You can sort them out after you start treating a human being as a fucking human being.
Digby
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Digby »

Who the bleep is Jordan Peterson and why is his (her?) opinion suddenly being dragged into this?

I'm only saying if people are free to choose then others are free to reject their choices, it just seems inconsistent to say the freedom only works one way. Which isn't pleasant, but is what it is
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Stom
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Stom »

Digby wrote:Who the bleep is Jordan Peterson and why is his (her?) opinion suddenly being dragged into this?

I'm only saying if people are free to choose then others are free to reject their choices, it just seems inconsistent to say the freedom only works one way. Which isn't pleasant, but is what it is
Why can you reject someone's choices? You can't reject them. They made them. It's their right and responsibility to make them.

They're not politicians running the country, they're a private person making a decision that impacts their life, not yours.

This isn't freedom works one way. You have complete freedom over your own self. Just like they have freedom over their own self. It is not your responsibility nor right to "reject" their choices. Their choices are their own choices.

Is that really difficult to understand?
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Digby »

Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:Who the bleep is Jordan Peterson and why is his (her?) opinion suddenly being dragged into this?

I'm only saying if people are free to choose then others are free to reject their choices, it just seems inconsistent to say the freedom only works one way. Which isn't pleasant, but is what it is
Why can you reject someone's choices? You can't reject them. They made them. It's their right and responsibility to make them.

They're not politicians running the country, they're a private person making a decision that impacts their life, not yours.

This isn't freedom works one way. You have complete freedom over your own self. Just like they have freedom over their own self. It is not your responsibility nor right to "reject" their choices. Their choices are their own choices.

Is that really difficult to understand?
No, I get you're arguing for freedom to choose only on one side.

It would be better if people were willing to accept the choices others made in this instance, but if you're handing one group the right to define what it means to be a man or woman then it does seem inconsistent to say others can't have their own take on what defines being a man or woman. I don't for one moment suggest that makes it any easier for a trans person to make and act on any decisions around their gender, but luckily most people aren't going to think about this issue most of the time so quite a lot of changes are likely to happen in the background and ideally in a few years time this will be less of an issue.

I'm not sure how it's ever not an issue as I know I wouldn't want to go on a date with someone who had transitioned or was thinking about doing so, and it's going to take quite some shift before the majority don't think in similar fashion, or such is my assumption. Essentially just because someone says they'e a woman doesn't mean I'd accept their statement
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Eugene Wrayburn
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Eugene Wrayburn »

No one is arguing about whether or not people should have the right to choose which gender they live by. The argument is the degree to which society should recognise it. This is not mere technicality, neither to trans people nor to society.

I find an attitude which says "fuck women's sport. What does it matter" breathtakingly misogynist, particularly on here where support clearly matters.
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

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Donny osmond
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Donny osmond »

Sorry Stom but I find your entire argument to be misogynistic. You really should read that link as it addresses the points you've raised. If trans women are women, that raises the question what is a woman... is it someone who fits a certain societal pigeon hole? Does is mean there is really no difference between men and women... given the issues of equality that women have been arguing and fighting for for years that would be a difficult argument to make. Does it mean it is impossible to tell if someone is a woman or not?

If you take biology out of the picture, what does the word woman mean? A response to this that isnt wrapped up in misogyny would be very welcome but I've yet to see one.

And that question goes to the heart of everything that's on this thread, these three separate issues you talk about are so clearly related at their base.

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It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Stom
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Re: Terf me out...

Post by Stom »

If you can explain to me how the fuck I'm being mysogynistic then we can talk further.

You cannot conflate acceptance for people who are different from me to mysogyny.

We're not talking about 50% of the population, we're talking about 0.03% or something.

And who am I to deny them their right to be comfortable both in themselves and in society.
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