Terf me out...

[Donny osmond]

Been thinking about the whole trans rights business. Has RR done this already? Apols if so.

Clearly everyone has the same rights legally and morally. I have no worries at all with trans peeps or sharing spaces with them.

One thing that does confuse me is the use of language. Specifically trans women demanding to be known simply as women, and vice versa with trans men. Trans people seem to be demanding equality by pretending that there is literally no difference between being born into a male or female body.

Could the trans community not do better by taking a leaf out of the gay community playbook? Gay people never demanded equality by claiming that homosexuality is the exact same as heterosexuality, they demanded equality by same we're all equal despite our differences... an argument that is more or less impossible to counter.

I think the trans community would do better by embracing what makes them unique, as the current policy of demanding sole possession of words like male, female, man, woman is seen as trampling over the identities of the rest of society.

Just my rambling thoughts at the start of my summer hols.

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[Puja]

Why is it trampling over the identities of the rest of society for a trans woman to refer to herself as a woman or a trans man to refer to himself as a man?

To lean on your comparison with gay rights, people argued that gay people were corroding the word and the institution of marriage by insisting they had a right to it, and why couldn't they have their own word that was different and separate (and a little bit second class). Now we have gay marriage and the sky hasn't yet fallen, nor the concept of words fallen apart. It doesn't lessen your own rights for other people to have them.

I don't get the issues for a lot of the TERF arguments - most of it smacks of spurious reasoning and ill-informed moral panic of the kind that used to link gay men as being a danger to children, despite there being no evidence to back that up.

Puja

[Donny osmond]

In the case of women they worked and argued and fought for recognition and respect and now on the say so of a small minority they have to accept whatever the trans women say is the definition of words like woman and female. On a personal level if a trans woman wants me to call her a woman I couldnt care less and will do so, but I'm not a woman and every woman I know is more than a little miffed that men, albeit ex-men, are dictating to them the definitions of words that they use to define themselves.

As to my comparison with the gay community, I'm not comparing rights, we should all have equal rights, I'm comparing how the gay community won those rights and societal acceptance (where that has happened) of those rights... it seems to me they followed a very different path to what the trans community are doing and I just wonder if the trans community are missing a trick

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[Puja]

In the case of women they worked and argued and fought for recognition and respect and now on the say so of a small minority they have to accept whatever the trans women say is the definition of words like woman and female. On a personal level if a trans woman wants me to call her a woman I couldnt care less and will do so, but I'm not a woman and every woman I know is more than a little miffed that men, albeit ex-men, are dictating to them the definitions of words that they use to define themselves.

See, that's the bit where I think people are getting it wrong. I can completely understand why women are annoyed that men dictate to them, because that's a real problem. However, it's not the case here, because trans-women aren't men and never have been. Even if you want to hive them off into their own little category separate to women*, they're not men dictating at women, because they're not men.

One of the reasons why it's so bad that men dictate to women is that being a man means you have a lot of societal power. Despite what MRAs and incels whine about, men get a much better deal than women in this society when taken as a whole. The TERF attitude seems to be that men have all this power and all the advantages and now 'some of them are trying to crowbar their way into our spaces and take the few things that belong to us,' which would be pretty bad if it were men who were doing it.

The thing that theory is missing is that being a trans-woman in this society is utterly shit. You're not a person who is getting all the man advantages plus added women's stuff, you are a person who not only doesn't get any of the man advantages, but also doesn't get a lot of the women ones as well. Oh, and who is much more likely to be murdered as well, which is fun. No-one chooses that for shits and giggles, or because they have a yin to get into women's bathrooms, social clubs, or domestic abuse safehouses (which they are likely to be barred from, despite statistically being more likely to be abused).

It's not a lifestyle choice - trans people are physically and verbally abused, shunned, cut out from services, shamed in newspapers, fired from their jobs (of course not because they're trans, they're... they're just not a good fit for the culture of the company, that's the ticket!), abandoned by romantic partners, beaten and murdered, ostracised by family - but they still have come out throughout history because it's who they are and it was killing them not to live in the correct gender.

And the alternative to calling them women is saying that they're faking it for... some intangible benefit. Which seems unlikely.

As to my comparison with the gay community, I'm not comparing rights, we should all have equal rights, I'm comparing how the gay community won those rights and societal acceptance (where that has happened) of those rights... it seems to me they followed a very different path to what the trans community are doing and I just wonder if the trans community are missing a trick

I'm not really sure how that works. Are you proposing four different genders - Male (assigned at birth), Female (assigned at birth), Trans Male, Trans Female. Leaving aside the fact that we can't currently get society to acknowledge one extra gender in non-binary people, and the fact that it's shitty enough being trans in this society without having to be segregated, what do you propose the practical difference between an AFAB person and a Trans Female person in society would be? How do you tell the difference between them - do they wear namebadges? Do the trans people have to identify themselves as trans rather than letting people assume they're female? How does it work?

Puja


*Don't do that please.

[Digby]

Gender or sex?

[Puja]

Gender or sex?

I'd rather talk about gender thanks; you're not really my type.

Puja

[cashead]

Trans women are women too. hth.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

[Eugene Wrayburn]

[cashead]

In the case of women they worked and argued and fought for recognition and respect and now on the say so of a small minority they have to accept whatever the trans women say is the definition of words like woman and female. On a personal level if a trans woman wants me to call her a woman I couldnt care less and will do so, but I'm not a woman and every woman I know is more than a little miffed that men, albeit ex-men, are dictating to them the definitions of words that they use to define themselves.

Here, I've bolded for you what you're getting wrong.

1. Acknowledging trans rights doesn't erode women's rights. It's not a zero-sum game.
2. They're not men.
3. It doesn't hurt to show some fucking decency, and acknowledge the gender and pronouns they prefer.

But then again, I'm probably biased - I've taught trans kids and was involved in the running of the LGBT support group at my previous school, I'm friends with trans people including supporting a friend through her transition, and I've been in a couple of relationships with trans women.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

Does becoming a trans-gender woman make you shit at football?

[Digby]

I'm still not sure gender is the right term, or is the argument seriously they seek a societal role only and aren't actually the sex they think they are?

[SerjeantWildgoose]

I have to admit to not really giving much of a toss about the whole trans debate. I don't really care what an individual chooses to think they may be or might become. What I do care about is when, in exercising that choice, they become vulnerable to the prejudices of others. The bald statistical analysis offered by puja, if true, is utterly atrocious.

Having said all of that, I am of a generation (possibly the last) that finds the whole gender fluidity thing a bit weird and having spent 33 years in the Army this lack of understanding has been reinforced by an institutional reluctance to even try to understand. I suspect that it is only my even stronger abhorrence of violent prejudice that overcomes my own non-violent ambivalence.

As to language, surely the only thing that defines sex in humans is the presence or absence of the pesky Y chromosome, thus if we are talking about sex (baby) it is a matter of genetics and the correct terminology is male or female. Gender on the other hand, offers a wider and more accommodating interpretation of social and cultural differences and it is when talking about gender that man and woman are more correct. Thus, I agree that a trans-woman is a woman but quite possibly a male woman which is extremely confusing and a minefield when drunk in Bangkok.

[Digby]

As to language, surely the only thing that defines sex in humans is the presence or absence of the pesky Y chromosome, thus if we are talking about sex (baby) it is a matter of genetics and the correct terminology is male or female. Gender on the other hand, offers a wider and more accommodating interpretation of social and cultural differences and it is when talking about gender that man and woman are more correct. Thus, I agree that a trans-woman is a woman but quite possibly a male woman which is extremely confusing and a minefield when drunk in Bangkok.

This is pretty much what my question is about. I'm not saying it's wrong to talk about gender, I am simply asking given gender other than being a linguistic tool is pretty much about cultural and societal values, and I'm not sure cultural and societal values equate to someone being a man or a woman , and thus I'm wondering specifically if we're talking about sex and sex being what one's hormones tell one rather than what's now termed a pesky Y chromosome.

I'm sort of with you on the whole not really caring, but whenever is gender is spoken of I wonder if they're really seeking what imo is a more limited establishment that only nods toward equality, or whether they mean sex but people are embarrassed by the word sex and say gender instead?

[Donny osmond]

In the case of women they worked and argued and fought for recognition and respect and now on the say so of a small minority they have to accept whatever the trans women say is the definition of words like woman and female. On a personal level if a trans woman wants me to call her a woman I couldnt care less and will do so, but I'm not a woman and every woman I know is more than a little miffed that men, albeit ex-men, are dictating to them the definitions of words that they use to define themselves.

Here, I've bolded for you what you're getting wrong.

1. Acknowledging trans rights doesn't erode women's rights. It's not a zero-sum game.
2. They're not men.
3. It doesn't hurt to show some fucking decency, and acknowledge the gender and pronouns they prefer.

But then again, I'm probably biased - I've taught trans kids and was involved in the running of the LGBT support group at my previous school, I'm friends with trans people including supporting a friend through her transition, and I've been in a couple of relationships with trans women.

Mate, its not me getting it wrong its other women. And if trans rights means dictating to non-trans women how they should define their own identities , then that is explicitly eroding non-trans womens rights, and if "showing some fucking decency" means just roll over and take cos you say so, I'd reckon that isnt the best way to convert people to your argument?

I dont know anyone who doesnt want trans rights enforced, but the current debate seems to be to achieve that by telling non-trans women to just shut it and do what they're told.

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[Donny osmond]

In the case of women they worked and argued and fought for recognition and respect and now on the say so of a small minority they have to accept whatever the trans women say is the definition of words like woman and female. On a personal level if a trans woman wants me to call her a woman I couldnt care less and will do so, but I'm not a woman and every woman I know is more than a little miffed that men, albeit ex-men, are dictating to them the definitions of words that they use to define themselves.

See, that's the bit where I think people are getting it wrong. I can completely understand why women are annoyed that men dictate to them, because that's a real problem. However, it's not the case here, because trans-women aren't men and never have been. Even if you want to hive them off into their own little category separate to women*, they're not men dictating at women, because they're not men.

One of the reasons why it's so bad that men dictate to women is that being a man means you have a lot of societal power. Despite what MRAs and incels whine about, men get a much better deal than women in this society when taken as a whole. The TERF attitude seems to be that men have all this power and all the advantages and now 'some of them are trying to crowbar their way into our spaces and take the few things that belong to us,' which would be pretty bad if it were men who were doing it.

The thing that theory is missing is that being a trans-woman in this society is utterly shit. You're not a person who is getting all the man advantages plus added women's stuff, you are a person who not only doesn't get any of the man advantages, but also doesn't get a lot of the women ones as well. Oh, and who is much more likely to be murdered as well, which is fun. No-one chooses that for shits and giggles, or because they have a yin to get into women's bathrooms, social clubs, or domestic abuse safehouses (which they are likely to be barred from, despite statistically being more likely to be abused).

It's not a lifestyle choice - trans people are physically and verbally abused, shunned, cut out from services, shamed in newspapers, fired from their jobs (of course not because they're trans, they're... they're just not a good fit for the culture of the company, that's the ticket!), abandoned by romantic partners, beaten and murdered, ostracised by family - but they still have come out throughout history because it's who they are and it was killing them not to live in the correct gender.

And the alternative to calling them women is saying that they're faking it for... some intangible benefit. Which seems unlikely.

As to my comparison with the gay community, I'm not comparing rights, we should all have equal rights, I'm comparing how the gay community won those rights and societal acceptance (where that has happened) of those rights... it seems to me they followed a very different path to what the trans community are doing and I just wonder if the trans community are missing a trick

I'm not really sure how that works. Are you proposing four different genders - Male (assigned at birth), Female (assigned at birth), Trans Male, Trans Female. Leaving aside the fact that we can't currently get society to acknowledge one extra gender in non-binary people, and the fact that it's shitty enough being trans in this society without having to be segregated, what do you propose the practical difference between an AFAB person and a Trans Female person in society would be? How do you tell the difference between them - do they wear namebadges? Do the trans people have to identify themselves as trans rather than letting people assume they're female? How does it work?

Puja


*Don't do that please.

All fair comment that I wouldnt disagree woth, but the current state of the game seems to be to tell non-trans women to mind their place, which I dont feel is really working.

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[Puja]

Mate, its not me getting it wrong its other women. And if trans rights means dictating to non-trans women how they should define their own identities , then that is explicitly eroding non-trans womens rights, and if "showing some fucking decency" means just roll over and take cos you say so, I'd reckon that isnt the best way to convert people to your argument?

I dont know anyone who doesnt want trans rights enforced, but the current debate seems to be to achieve that by telling non-trans women to just shut it and do what they're told.

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This is the disconnect for me, right here. In what way are cis-women's identities being dictated to them? How is that happening by recognising trans women as women? How is their ability to define their own identity changing by allowing other people to define their own identities?

Genuine questions, as I feel this is the crux of the disagreement here.

Puja


ETA. I would also like to note "not all women" . There's an awful lot who don't feel this way and I think it might be that you coincidentally know a lot of TERFs rather than that's a representative sample of women as a whole.

[Puja]

As to language, surely the only thing that defines sex in humans is the presence or absence of the pesky Y chromosome, thus if we are talking about sex (baby) it is a matter of genetics and the correct terminology is male or female. Gender on the other hand, offers a wider and more accommodating interpretation of social and cultural differences and it is when talking about gender that man and woman are more correct. Thus, I agree that a trans-woman is a woman but quite possibly a male woman which is extremely confusing and a minefield when drunk in Bangkok.

This is pretty much what my question is about. I'm not saying it's wrong to talk about gender, I am simply asking given gender other than being a linguistic tool is pretty much about cultural and societal values, and I'm not sure cultural and societal values equate to someone being a man or a woman , and thus I'm wondering specifically if we're talking about sex and sex being what one's hormones tell one rather than what's now termed a pesky Y chromosome.

I'm sort of with you on the whole not really caring, but whenever is gender is spoken of I wonder if they're really seeking what imo is a more limited establishment that only nods toward equality, or whether they mean sex but people are embarrassed by the word sex and say gender instead?

Actually, sex in humans (and other creatures) isn't a binary matter at all and is a lot more complicated than the XX/XY thing we were taught at Year 7 Biology. Most people fall into two groups on either end of the spectrum, but there are people of XY chromosomes who are androgen insensitive (so they have 'male' chromosomes, but develop just like someone with XX), people who have XX but go through a male puberty, XXY, X!, just X, mosaic chromosomes - there's a lot of variation. Which makes sense, if you think about it - what other part of the human genetic code is so simple that it's just one switch that goes on and off? But we get taught that in school and unless you go on to study further, generally it's taken as a universal truth. It's estimated that 1 in 100 people has some form of DSD (wonky chromosomes, basically).

Further reading here if interested: https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
http://capone.mtsu.edu/phollowa/5sexes.html
https://www.theguardian.com/science/the ... een-binary

Puja

[Digby]

Sex then mayn't the right term either, which still for me doesn't mean it's correct to talk about gender. I'd actually wondered whether sex was the right term when many trans people may for a variety of reasons not want or be able to transition, and excluding them seemed to be missing what might be deemed a reasonable semblance of acceptance.

[Puja]

Sex then mayn't the right term either, which still for me doesn't mean it's correct to talk about gender. I'd actually wondered whether sex was the right term when many trans people may for a variety of reasons not want or be able to transition, and excluding them seemed to be missing what might be deemed a reasonable semblance of acceptance.

While I can't speak for trans people, I'm under the impression that they do talk about gender rather than sex, because they're concerned about cultural and societal mores and how that affects them, rather than the actual balance of their chromosomes. That's the bit that actually makes a difference to their lives.

Willing to be corrected if anyone knows better.

Puja

[Digby]

I'm not fussed about going with gender, it merely seems to me one could easily be saying gender and that be taken as they're playing at being men/women and aren't really men/women. And to the extent I care it seems odd to be arguing for equality by from the off asking not to be recognised as equal in all ways with the language being used.

[Donny osmond]

Mate, its not me getting it wrong its other women. And if trans rights means dictating to non-trans women how they should define their own identities , then that is explicitly eroding non-trans womens rights, and if "showing some fucking decency" means just roll over and take cos you say so, I'd reckon that isnt the best way to convert people to your argument?

I dont know anyone who doesnt want trans rights enforced, but the current debate seems to be to achieve that by telling non-trans women to just shut it and do what they're told.

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This is the disconnect for me, right here. In what way are cis-women's identities being dictated to them? How is that happening by recognising trans women as women? How is their ability to define their own identity changing by allowing other people to define their own identities?

Genuine questions, as I feel this is the crux of the disagreement here.

Puja


ETA. I would also like to note "not all women" . There's an awful lot who don't feel this way and I think it might be that you coincidentally know a lot of TERFs rather than that's a representative sample of women as a whole.

If it was just a question of a word for them then I'd agree with you, but when using that word opens the can of worms around safe spaces, change rooms toilets etc then it becomes an issue. I suspect you know this already. I doubt if I coincidentally know only terfs, and I dont think using a convenient label to marginalise people you dont agree with is very useful.

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[Mellsblue]

Don’t know where I read it, but I think in this context sex is used to describe the physical and gender the psychological. Could have it the wrong way round, could be completely wrong or I could’ve just dreamt it. When I get a chance I’ll try and find my source.

[Puja]

Mate, its not me getting it wrong its other women. And if trans rights means dictating to non-trans women how they should define their own identities , then that is explicitly eroding non-trans womens rights, and if "showing some fucking decency" means just roll over and take cos you say so, I'd reckon that isnt the best way to convert people to your argument?

I dont know anyone who doesnt want trans rights enforced, but the current debate seems to be to achieve that by telling non-trans women to just shut it and do what they're told.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

This is the disconnect for me, right here. In what way are cis-women's identities being dictated to them? How is that happening by recognising trans women as women? How is their ability to define their own identity changing by allowing other people to define their own identities?

Genuine questions, as I feel this is the crux of the disagreement here.

Puja


ETA. I would also like to note "not all women" . There's an awful lot who don't feel this way and I think it might be that you coincidentally know a lot of TERFs rather than that's a representative sample of women as a whole.

If it was just a question of a word for them then I'd agree with you, but when using that word opens the can of worms around safe spaces, change rooms toilets etc then it becomes an issue. I suspect you know this already. I doubt if I coincidentally know only terfs, and I dont think using a convenient label to marginalise people you dont agree with is very useful.

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I'm genuinely not trying to pick a fight or be snide or difficult. Just to make that clear, because it isn't always in text. I acknowledge TERF is an emotionally charged label and probably wasn't the best choice of word from me. I wasn't meaning to denigrate the women you know, just noting that you seemed to be implying that these opinions were held by women as a whole ("It's not me [saying this], it's other women") and, while that might be true for the women you know, it's not true for the women I know, so there's not a united front on the matter. Hence the "not all women" quip.

I still don't get why counting trans women as women reduces the identity of cis women. The argument that they lose women-only spaces is predicated on the idea that trans women are secret men, trying to get extra things, which I've established is ridiculously unlikely because being a trans woman in this society is rubbish and no-one is going to pretend to it just to get into a women's refuge. The changing rooms and toilets angle also carries the wonderful assumption that, not only are trans women all blokes in dresses, but they're perverts, criminals, and rapists. When, in reality, they're just people who want to have a piss. Kind of ignores the fact that women are fine wih lesbians being in changing rooms, who are a lot more likely to be interested in naked female bodies than trans women (who aren't keen to be flashing their own bits around either - see the shitness of being trans in this society).

Even if we leave aside all of that, what do non-trans women actually lose by treating trans women as women? How are their rights diminished? What change is there to their lives and their fight for equality?

Puja

[Donny osmond]

This is the disconnect for me, right here. In what way are cis-women's identities being dictated to them? How is that happening by recognising trans women as women? How is their ability to define their own identity changing by allowing other people to define their own identities?

Genuine questions, as I feel this is the crux of the disagreement here.

Puja


ETA. I would also like to note "not all women" . There's an awful lot who don't feel this way and I think it might be that you coincidentally know a lot of TERFs rather than that's a representative sample of women as a whole.

If it was just a question of a word for them then I'd agree with you, but when using that word opens the can of worms around safe spaces, change rooms toilets etc then it becomes an issue. I suspect you know this already. I doubt if I coincidentally know only terfs, and I dont think using a convenient label to marginalise people you dont agree with is very useful.

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I'm genuinely not trying to pick a fight or be snide or difficult. Just to make that clear, because it isn't always in text. I acknowledge TERF is an emotionally charged label and probably wasn't the best choice of word from me. I wasn't meaning to denigrate the women you know, just noting that you seemed to be implying that these opinions were held by women as a whole ("It's not me [saying this], it's other women") and, while that might be true for the women you know, it's not true for the women I know, so there's not a united front on the matter. Hence the "not all women" quip.

I still don't get why counting trans women as women reduces the identity of cis women. The argument that they lose women-only spaces is predicated on the idea that trans women are secret men, trying to get extra things, which I've established is ridiculously unlikely because being a trans woman in this society is rubbish and no-one is going to pretend to it just to get into a women's refuge. The changing rooms and toilets angle also carries the wonderful assumption that, not only are trans women all blokes in dresses, but they're perverts, criminals, and rapists. When, in reality, they're just people who want to have a piss. Kind of ignores the fact that women are fine wih lesbians being in changing rooms, who are a lot more likely to be interested in naked female bodies than trans women (who aren't keen to be flashing their own bits around either - see the shitness of being trans in this society).

Even if we leave aside all of that, what do non-trans women actually lose by treating trans women as women? How are their rights diminished? What change is there to their lives and their fight for equality?

Puja

I dont think anyone has a problem with trans people using changing rooms, the problem is predatory men abusing the system to prey on women/girls. I'm not talking about self id either, rather there are plenty of men out there who will do whatever it takes to manufacture an opportunity to exercise some power over females. Again I'd like to stress I'm not talking about demonizing trans women here, its easy to recognize that trans people are more likely than anyone else to be abused, I'm talking about men who are sexual predators taking whatever chance they can get.

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