RugbyRebels

Secondly, more importantly and more worryingly, there seems to be a push back against puberty blockers for teenagers wishing to transition. In the paper linked below, the author provides what would appear to be a pretty devastating critique of the use of puberty blockers. I have seen a few people stating that these drugs are being prescribed without full knowledge or understanding of long term effects, and that would certainly be the message from this letter to the BMJ (https://blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2 ... =post_page)

The below letter is worth reading but is too long to quote fully, so I'll retrict myself to highlighting just one passage from the conclusions:

In fact, the initial results showed predominantly negative outcomes. The only tabulated
data available, for 30 of the subjects after a year on triptorelin, showed that children reported
greater self-harm; girls experienced more behavioural and emotional problems and expressed
greater dissatisfaction with their body—so drugs exacerbated gender dysphoria (GIDS 2015).
The fact that these outcomes have never been published is a serious indictment of Carmichael,
Viner (now President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health), Di Ceglie, and
the other scientists who proposed the research.8 The failure can be highlighted by comparing
another use of triptorelin: the treatment of hypersexuality in men, for which it is licensed. The
chemical castration of seven dangerous sex offenders in Broadmoor Hospital resulted in a
report spanning two pages, which detailed the adverse side effects experienced by three
patients (Ho et al. 2012). The use of triptorelin on 44 adolescents—off license—has produced
only two single-page abstracts reporting outcomes for subsets of the subjects (Catanzano and
Butler 2018; Tobin, Ting, and Butler 2018).

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_E ... ockers.pdf

Finally, and this is why I think this area is so important to discuss as objectively as possible, here is a screenshot of what, as far as I know, is an actual genuine paper. Believe it or not, this paper is arguing for the right of able bodied people to call themselves disabled. It seems like a joke, but it has been reported as real. If we don't discuss these subjects sensibly, this is the end point.

Donny you state an aim of objectivity, yet you seem to be scouring the web for editorials and review articles from journals with extremely low impact factor. That doesn't come across as particularly objective. What would help is if you could state your own hypothesis and build a discussion around that.

morepork wrote:Donny you state an aim of objectivity, yet you seem to be scouring the web for editorials and review articles from journals with extremely low impact factor. That doesn't come across as particularly objective. What would help is if you could state your own hypothesis and build a discussion around that.

How do I raise my impact factor?? Help me MP!!

Sorry if its not high brow enough for you, I could go looking for in depth science discussions but then I, along with about 99% of people wouldnt understand the in depth science.

But when 2 oxford professors and an expert in evidence based medicine, among others, are raising concerns, and when those concerns are that life changing drugs are being prescribed to children without any knowledge or investigation into long term physical health issues, and when those concerns might appear to show that at least some of those children, already suffering mental health problems, see their mental health get worse as a direct result of using those drugs... thats plenty impactful enough for me.

Is there a particular reason why Puja and Cashead were able to make all kinds of claims about the efficacy of these treatments without being challenged earlier in this thread, claims that would appear to be dubious at best. But when someone looks up evidence to challenge those claims, they get challenged?

You do have a point tho, I can see I have fallen into that trap of thinking I'm more objective than others, where thats not necessarily true, so apols for that. Strike the word objectivity from my posts.

My hypothesis? That this whole area from womens sports to social acceptance to children's physical, mental and sexual health is more complex than, and deserves far far better standard of debate than simply "trans women are women, thats it thats all thats a blanket rule from now on and if you dont agree you're a TERF and a hater full stop".

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This particular debate continues...

Cast Semenya barred from 800m at World Championships

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/30/spor ... ships.html

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Impact factor of the referenced published matter Donald, not your impact factor. The volume of citations received is a metric used to assess a journals impact. Nature, for example, has an impact factor of 41.6. The journal you linked with the editorial has an impact factor of 1.27. Note, editorial, not article. Nothing to do with "high brow". It's science bitch.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Donny osmond wrote:This particular debate continues...

Cast Semenya barred from 800m at World Championships

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/30/spor ... ships.html

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Or rather the standards set by the IAAF, and upheld by the CAS have not been overturned by the Swiss Courts and they feel no longer feel the need to suspend those rulings.

morepork wrote:Impact factor of the referenced published matter Donald, not your impact factor. The volume of citations received is a metric used to assess a journals impact. Nature, for example, has an impact factor of 41.6. The journal you linked with the editorial has an impact factor of 1.27. Note, editorial, not article. Nothing to do with "high brow". It's science bitch.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Sarcasm is the best form of wit by far, and you should know me well enough by now to know that you need to speak clearly and make no assumptions about my ability to comprehend your posts.

(Srsly, how TF am I supposed to know what you meant by impact factor, or know how to look up a journal's impact factor, or even understand that its something I need to be aware of prior to reading something in said journal?) Out of interest, whats the impact factor of the journal where Dr Harper published her much quoted research paper?

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I’m just tossing this in the mix too because I’d read a few references in this thread to Semenya being ‘intersex’ and wasn’t sure if that had ever actually been clarified or not.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconvers ... ort-116448

Donny osmond wrote:

morepork wrote:Impact factor of the referenced published matter Donald, not your impact factor. The volume of citations received is a metric used to assess a journals impact. Nature, for example, has an impact factor of 41.6. The journal you linked with the editorial has an impact factor of 1.27. Note, editorial, not article. Nothing to do with "high brow". It's science bitch.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Sarcasm is the best form of wit by far, and you should know me well enough by now to know that you need to speak clearly and make no assumptions about my ability to comprehend your posts.

(Srsly, how TF am I supposed to know what you meant by impact factor, or know how to look up a journal's impact factor, or even understand that its something I need to be aware of prior to reading something in said journal?) Out of interest, whats the impact factor of the journal where Dr Harper published her much quoted research paper?

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I'm not your slave. You do it.

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m just tossing this in the mix too because I’d read a few references in this thread to Semenya being ‘intersex’ and wasn’t sure if that had ever actually been clarified or not.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconvers ... ort-116448

I believe I read in the actual court documents that she has testes that are internal (have not dropped)... or it was eluded to the fact that she does for privacy concerns.

morepork wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

morepork wrote:Impact factor of the referenced published matter Donald, not your impact factor. The volume of citations received is a metric used to assess a journals impact. Nature, for example, has an impact factor of 41.6. The journal you linked with the editorial has an impact factor of 1.27. Note, editorial, not article. Nothing to do with "high brow". It's science bitch.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Sarcasm is the best form of wit by far, and you should know me well enough by now to know that you need to speak clearly and make no assumptions about my ability to comprehend your posts.

(Srsly, how TF am I supposed to know what you meant by impact factor, or know how to look up a journal's impact factor, or even understand that its something I need to be aware of prior to reading something in said journal?) Out of interest, whats the impact factor of the journal where Dr Harper published her much quoted research paper?

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I'm not your slave. You do it.

Looked at 2 websites and they both need a log in and I'm not that motivated to set myself up with an account. Are you talking about the last one I posted about disability? Cos that would be pretty disingenuous, and a poor way of distracting from the content of the two letters I also posted.

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Coco wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m just tossing this in the mix too because I’d read a few references in this thread to Semenya being ‘intersex’ and wasn’t sure if that had ever actually been clarified or not.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconvers ... ort-116448

I believe I read in the actual court documents that she has testes that are internal (have not dropped)... or it was eluded to the fact that she does for privacy concerns.

IAAF officials called her biologically male.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/spor ... -show.html

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Donny osmond wrote:

morepork wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:
Sarcasm is the best form of wit by far, and you should know me well enough by now to know that you need to speak clearly and make no assumptions about my ability to comprehend your posts.

(Srsly, how TF am I supposed to know what you meant by impact factor, or know how to look up a journal's impact factor, or even understand that its something I need to be aware of prior to reading something in said journal?) Out of interest, whats the impact factor of the journal where Dr Harper published her much quoted research paper?

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I'm not your slave. You do it.

Looked at 2 websites and they both need a log in and I'm not that motivated to set myself up with an account. Are you talking about the last one I posted about disability? Cos that would be pretty disingenuous, and a poor way of distracting from the content of the two letters I also posted.

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I'm not getting in the mud with you Donald. Here, fill yer boots:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Here's a longer article that will do nothing for my claims of objectivity

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

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morepork wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

morepork wrote:

I'm not your slave. You do it.

Looked at 2 websites and they both need a log in and I'm not that motivated to set myself up with an account. Are you talking about the last one I posted about disability? Cos that would be pretty disingenuous, and a poor way of distracting from the content of the two letters I also posted.

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I'm not getting in the mud with you Donald. Here, fill yer boots:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

You were talking about disability and society! Ha! You're in the mud son, a muddy science bitch.

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Oh my good god...

Was reading that Semenya was complaining that the birth control pills and/or hormonal medications she was taking to control testosterone were making her get headaches, feel ill, etc. My first thought was... NO KIDDING! Non trans, non intersex women have been complaining about that for years... lol... its no fun!

Coco wrote:Was reading that Semenya was complaining that the birth control pills and/or hormonal medications she was taking to control testosterone were making her get headaches, feel ill, etc. My first thought was... NO KIDDING! Non trans, non intersex women have been complaining about that for years... lol... its no fun!

Quite.

I've heard a fair amount of this recently. There was aggression against lesbians at an Edinburgh Pride march as well. It bears pretty much all the hallmarks of male privilege when denied.

Back in your box, women

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There does seem to be a growing push back against trans activism... in the week Australian Cricket gave themselves a big pat on the back for 'allowing' males to compete in womens cricket, the country's Senior Australian of the Year, and pediatrician, signed off on a letter to the RACP and health minister...

Cited is a lack of evidence, guidance or support in the use of puberty blockers, to the extent that it is questioned if gender transitioning equates to child abuse. Strong stuff.

https://www.academia.edu/40042239/Gende ... _Responses

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Anyone who happily just accepts the "trans women are women" mantra might want to read this and try answering some of the questions it raises...

https://medium.com/@s.r.allen/if-transw ... 6121bdd926

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Donny osmond wrote:Anyone who happily just accepts the "trans women are women" mantra might want to read this and try answering some of the questions it raises...

https://medium.com/@s.r.allen/if-transw ... 6121bdd926

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I'm not going to read that, Donny.

But it seems like you're putting 3 arguments together and taking the view of 2 to inform the 3rd.

What %age of women compete in high level sports?

In the grand scheme of things, what does it matter?

Children...It doesn't sit right with me in the slightest, but who am I to talk, I'm no expert.

General trans women...

If they want to be women, they can be women. Seriously, who cares? They're not going to be doing anything to hurt you, they just want to live their lives as a woman, not a man. It's not their job to look after the feelings of others, it's their job to look after their own feelings. We shouldn't make them feel bad for wanting to feel better about and within themselves!

Treat trans women as women, because they fucking want to be.

That's the whole debate, ffs! Treat me with respect and respect my right to make the life choices I make.

Don't conflate the debate around trans women with high profile sports or puberty blockers. They are 3 different things.

Stom wrote:
Treat trans women as women, because they fucking want to be.

That's the whole debate, ffs! Treat me with respect and respect my right to make the life choices I make.

If trans people are free to claim their identify/gender/sex why are others not free to make their own judgement on that? I doubt most people are going to care, or at least they're rarely if ever going to actually think about it, but it seems hard to argue for the right for people to choose for themselves whilst simultaneously telling people they're not free to choose for themselves