England v Japan

[Banquo]

Definitely but I think that’s because he’s thinking about what Jones’s/Gleeson’s system wants him to do rather than just playing what he sees in front of him*. What ever it is, he’s currently not worthy of selection and it all goes back to picking your 10 and then sticking his round peg in a square hole.
*the same happened to Ford, imo, so he’s not the first instinctive 10 to regress/not reach his potential under Jones.

Dunno those little chips looked off the cuff but bad options badly executed, ditto intercepted pass.

I think with Ford he may not have been doing what he necessarily wanted to do, but he generally executed what he was asked to do, well.

Difficult to argue against that. It’s just a gut feeling that Smith’s natural game is being so messed with that even the basics have gone to pot. Brain fog is the best title for it, I suppose. There’s no way you look at him for Quins and for England and believe it’s the same player. Nothing to base that on other than my mercurial 10 tinted spectacles. The poor bloke’s had 15ish caps and never had a set-up even close to that which made him play his way into the England XV. As above, even a seasoned veteran such as Ford had his creativity drilled out of him and on occasion had games of endless aimless kicking, albeit he never looked as discombobulated as Smith does.

Just think international rugby is that much harder, less time, more all round pressure. Rabbit meet many more brighter headlights Another way of putting your point about set up is that he’s a square peg in a round hole accompanied by a very square 12.

Unfortunately I don’t think the aimless kicking thing was about discombobulation, more the game plan

[p/d]

No kicking duties, playing by numbers, saddled with another 10 who is conducting events . …. No bunny hop or Elvis sneer is going to take those handcuffs off

[Mellsblue]

The thing that’s really special about Smith at club level is his running game, he’s a threat from pretty much anywhere on the pitch including counter attack. Is it just that he’s getting no space at the test level to execute this part of his game?

That’s a huge part of it, for me. At Quins he has a fast back three who look to counter ball in hand as much as possible, along with an expansive, ball in hand philosophy in most other facets of the game. This then leads to an unstructured d for Smith to attack. England don’t do this, quite the opposite. Add in a 12 and 13 that are of a completely different skill set, and a game plan revolving around the need to involve the 12 as a pivot, and it’s completely alien. The plan seems to be to get Smith in space with the pull back from Farrell but it leaves him too deep and it’s all too contrived and metres in front of a structured d for him to replicate what he does for Quins.
All the above is imho, obvs.

[p/d]

JVP will go the same way. Got to change how we play if we are going to start these guys.

[Mellsblue]

Dunno those little chips looked off the cuff but bad options badly executed, ditto intercepted pass.

I think with Ford he may not have been doing what he necessarily wanted to do, but he generally executed what he was asked to do, well.

Difficult to argue against that. It’s just a gut feeling that Smith’s natural game is being so messed with that even the basics have gone to pot. Brain fog is the best title for it, I suppose. There’s no way you look at him for Quins and for England and believe it’s the same player. Nothing to base that on other than my mercurial 10 tinted spectacles. The poor bloke’s had 15ish caps and never had a set-up even close to that which made him play his way into the England XV. As above, even a seasoned veteran such as Ford had his creativity drilled out of him and on occasion had games of endless aimless kicking, albeit he never looked as discombobulated as Smith does.

Just think international rugby is that much harder, less time, more all round pressure. Rabbit meet many more brighter headlights Another way of putting your point about set up is that he’s a square peg in a round hole accompanied by a very square 12.

Unfortunately I don’t think the aimless kicking thing was about discombobulation, more the game plan

Can’t disagree, again, but if he was failing in a system that was built around him I would just put it down to rabbit meets headlights but until that point I’ll keep the faith.
This, ie my opinion, could all just be ptsd from the time when at school, as a homeless man’s George Ford, I was given a backline that seemed almost purposely designed to make me fail… which also leads me on to my thoughts that nobody who played front five should have a say over the backline, and that can be extend to backrow, including backrow players masquerading as centres, at my discretion.

[L'Historien]

“Similarly, Porter scoring two tries sounds good, but he was simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time to finish others’ good work.”
Hmm- isn’t being in the right place at the right time a good thing? If Porter isn’t there to finish, there’s no score.

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting on Smith's first try Steward fields the ball and looks like he's going to kick (?) before Cokanisga signals him back infield, then follows Usain "outside break" Steward really well to take the pass and give the offload for the try. That was class.

[Danno]

“Similarly, Porter scoring two tries sounds good, but he was simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time to finish others’ good work.”
Hmm- isn’t being in the right place at the right time a good thing? If Porter isn’t there to finish, there’s no score.

I see you FKAS -.-

[Beasties]

Seems to me, JVP brings a gale of fresh air to Eng’s play. How nice was it to see a SH that just got on with the job of getting the ball away instantly from the breakdown. That in itself raised our game, and there was his support play too which was refreshing. Ribbans looked immediately at home, shame it’s taken so long for anyone to find this out. May is just a quality int’l winger. No matter how many caps we give Nowell I still have to think hard about one game where he did something noteworthy for Eng but still draw a blank, as much as he is effective for Exeter. Move on please Eddie. Why is Itoje blocking caps at 6? And most bonkers of all, why is Jack Willis nowhere near this?

[Oakboy]

Seems to me, JVP brings a gale of fresh air to Eng’s play. How nice was it to see a SH that just got on with the job of getting the ball away instantly from the breakdown. That in itself raised our game, and there was his support play too which was refreshing. Ribbans looked immediately at home, shame it’s taken so long for anyone to find this out. May is just a quality int’l winger. No matter how many caps we give Nowell I still have to think hard about one game where he did something noteworthy for Eng but still draw a blank, as much as he is effective for Exeter. Move on please Eddie. Why is Itoje blocking caps at 6? And most bonkers of all, why is Jack Willis nowhere near this?

Arguably, Japan is the one country against which the 3rd lock line-out option makes the leat sense whereas a ground-hog at 6 would fit.

[Banquo]

Interesting on Smith's first try Steward fields the ball and looks like he's going to kick (?) before Cokanisga signals him back infield, then follows Usain "outside break" Steward really well to take the pass and give the offload for the try. That was class.

Yep, back three were very good, despite May's yellow. Despite Slade's nearly man action, I thought he also made a decent impact at 15, though not a fan of Steward being shoved to the wing; weird outside backs bench tbh.

[Banquo]

Seems to me, JVP brings a gale of fresh air to Eng’s play. How nice was it to see a SH that just got on with the job of getting the ball away instantly from the breakdown. That in itself raised our game, and there was his support play too which was refreshing. Ribbans looked immediately at home, shame it’s taken so long for anyone to find this out. May is just a quality int’l winger. No matter how many caps we give Nowell I still have to think hard about one game where he did something noteworthy for Eng but still draw a blank, as much as he is effective for Exeter. Move on please Eddie. Why is Itoje blocking caps at 6? And most bonkers of all, why is Jack Willis nowhere near this?

Arguably, Japan is the one country against which the 3rd lock line-out option makes the leat sense whereas a ground-hog at 6 would fit.

yet our lineout was poor until George came on. But yes, Willis should at least have been on the bench.

[Banquo]

Difficult to argue against that. It’s just a gut feeling that Smith’s natural game is being so messed with that even the basics have gone to pot. Brain fog is the best title for it, I suppose. There’s no way you look at him for Quins and for England and believe it’s the same player. Nothing to base that on other than my mercurial 10 tinted spectacles. The poor bloke’s had 15ish caps and never had a set-up even close to that which made him play his way into the England XV. As above, even a seasoned veteran such as Ford had his creativity drilled out of him and on occasion had games of endless aimless kicking, albeit he never looked as discombobulated as Smith does.

Just think international rugby is that much harder, less time, more all round pressure. Rabbit meet many more brighter headlights Another way of putting your point about set up is that he’s a square peg in a round hole accompanied by a very square 12.

Unfortunately I don’t think the aimless kicking thing was about discombobulation, more the game plan

Can’t disagree, again, but if he was failing in a system that was built around him I would just put it down to rabbit meets headlights but until that point I’ll keep the faith.
This, ie my opinion, could all just be ptsd from the time when at school, as a homeless man’s George Ford, I was given a backline that seemed almost purposely designed to make me fail… which also leads me on to my thoughts that nobody who played front five should have a say over the backline, and that can be extend to backrow, including backrow players masquerading as centres, at my discretion.

I don't think we can build a system around him/Quins game tbh. No Esterhuizen , plus a lot of other stuff

[Oakboy]

For years under Jones, the thought was Ford OR Farrell but he played both. Now, he is making a similar statement with Farrell and Smith. The latter's running game is neutered by hardly ever being up flat. The opposition is rarely surprised.

JVP, Farrell, Lawrence and Slade might just end up being the balanced 9, 10, 12, 13 compromise.

[Banquo]

For years under Jones, the thought was Ford OR Farrell but he played both. Now, he is making a similar statement with Farrell and Smith. The latter's running game is neutered by hardly ever being up flat. The opposition is rarely surprised.

JVP, Farrell, Lawrence and Slade might just end up being the balanced 9, 10, 12, 13 compromise.

I think Smith is more suprised by how little time and space there is at intl level, and is always trying to manufacture something himself when not part of a set move. I still don't see Faz and Smith as any sort of natural partnership, but like you, I never thought the Faz Ford combo a good one- despite the early Eddie years producing some half decent back performances.

Looking at the stats, our midfield was hardly used in attack in carrying terms. Faz and Porter had 7 carries between them for 8 yards.....and I'd think most of those yards (and two carries) were Porters tries.

[Oakboy]

For years under Jones, the thought was Ford OR Farrell but he played both. Now, he is making a similar statement with Farrell and Smith. The latter's running game is neutered by hardly ever being up flat. The opposition is rarely surprised.

JVP, Farrell, Lawrence and Slade might just end up being the balanced 9, 10, 12, 13 compromise.

I think Smith is more suprised by how little time and space there is at intl level, and is always trying to manufacture something himself when not part of a set move.

Which makes me wonder what his pre-match instructions might be. (Hopefully not 'do what Owen tells you'! ).

[Banquo]

For years under Jones, the thought was Ford OR Farrell but he played both. Now, he is making a similar statement with Farrell and Smith. The latter's running game is neutered by hardly ever being up flat. The opposition is rarely surprised.

JVP, Farrell, Lawrence and Slade might just end up being the balanced 9, 10, 12, 13 compromise.

I think Smith is more suprised by how little time and space there is at intl level, and is always trying to manufacture something himself when not part of a set move.

Which makes me wonder what his pre-match instructions might be. (Hopefully not 'do what Owen tells you'! ).

To me it looked like he was playing off the cuff after a phase or two.

Whatever, we kept kicking unecessarily when in good positions in attack- though unfortunately for my argument, Faz's left footed chip through for Porter's try was brilliant.

[Scrumhead]

“Similarly, Porter scoring two tries sounds good, but he was simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time to finish others’ good work.”
Hmm- isn’t being in the right place at the right time a good thing? If Porter isn’t there to finish, there’s no score.

The simple answer is yes, but that doesn’t tell the full story.

Some players have a genuine talent (and work rate) for getting themselves in the right position to receive a scoring pass - Chris Ashton is a great example of this.

Porter was just the last player in the line for regulation scores. It’s not like he showed any great level of instinct or had worked his nuts of to support the attack. He was just there.

[Scrumhead]

JVP will go the same way. Got to change how we play if we are going to start these guys.

And for Quirke (if he can catch a break on the fitness front).

Slightly different for 9s though - there’s a bit more license to snipe (even Youngs does this sometimes) and TBH, even if they don’t, JvP (and Quirke) simply getting the ball away quickly and accurately would do for me.

[Timbo]

Bit of a backhanded compliment maybe, but I do think Smith defended really well yesterday. Made some excellent, technically sound tackles against some big men. Definitely looks as though he’s been working on his defence.

[p/d]

JVP will go the same way. Got to change how we play if we are going to start these guys.

And for Quirke (if he can catch a break on the fitness front).

Slightly different for 9s though - there’s a bit more license to snipe (even Youngs does this sometimes) and TBH, even if they don’t, JvP (and Quirke) simply getting the ball away quickly and accurately would do for me.

Big fan of both of them. I also appreciate they can’t just play quick and loose without balance. Yesterday though there were a few phases where you felt he was acting out predetermined plays rather than whipping the ball away to keep the attacking momentum going. Minor gripe but we have seen it happen with Youngs

[Banquo]

Bit of a backhanded compliment maybe, but I do think Smith defended really well yesterday. Made some excellent, technically sound tackles against some big men. Definitely looks as though he’s been working on his defence.

Yep really stepped up. Our tackling was aggressive all round and good use of line speed selectively, but too many tackles missed for comfort for me.

One thing- our ruck speed was very patchy, and Japans way faster a lot of the time. Both are of concern, and the former doesn’t help Smith overly. Playing a flanker at 6 with Itoje doing his stuff from lock would help

[Banquo]

JVP will go the same way. Got to change how we play if we are going to start these guys.

And for Quirke (if he can catch a break on the fitness front).

Slightly different for 9s though - there’s a bit more license to snipe (even Youngs does this sometimes) and TBH, even if they don’t, JvP (and Quirke) simply getting the ball away quickly and accurately would do for me.

Big fan of both of them. I also appreciate they can’t just play quick and loose without balance. Yesterday though there were a few phases where you felt he was acting out predetermined plays rather than whipping the ball away to keep the attacking momentum going. Minor gripe but we have seen it happen with Youngs

Agreed, tho as above our ruck speed kept falling away- he had to dig out a few times.

[p/d]

Bit of a backhanded compliment maybe, but I do think Smith defended really well yesterday. Made some excellent, technically sound tackles against some big men. Definitely looks as though he’s been working on his defence.

Yep really stepped up. Our tackling was aggressive all round and good use of line speed selectively, but too many tackles missed for comfort for me.

One thing- our ruck speed was very patchy, and Japans way faster a lot of the time. Both are of concern, and the former doesn’t help Smith overly. Playing a flanker at 6 with Itoje doing his stuff from lock would help

The Itoje scream would be just as effective from the second row as it is the back

[Which Tyler]

Hmm- isn’t being in the right place at the right time a good thing? If Porter isn’t there to finish, there’s no score.

Depends on the popularity of the player.



On Smith - I'm just still don't think he's a great game manager, or reader of the game a distance away (time or space)
He's great at seeing things for himself, and for manufacturing things close in to where he is - but I just don't see him spotting that mismatch on the other side of the pitch; or manipulating a defence to create a mis-match in 3 phases time that, for example, Ford excels at.

Which really, REALLY means that he then suffers from an ordinary IC alongside him, as he needs his gamechangers within passing distance of himself.
Of course, any and every FH benefits from having a gamechanger at IC, and ideally, another on his near-side wing offering something on his other shoulder, and a ballcarrying threat at 8. Ford (for example) had the management skills to overcome the handicaps England provided him; Smith just doesn't have that skill set.

All that said, Smith is young, and has time to develop that side of his game, and I'm sure he will - but he's not there yet. Whereas Ford (for example) had that stuff which set him apart from his peers at U16s.