England Squad for the AIs

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, pretty much.

I'm at the point I'll be quite surprised if it suddenly clicks for Dombrandt. He is a player you can really build a pack/attack around but that simply wouldn't happen at international level.

On a sidenote I just watched that little featurette thing with Tommy Freeman, he talks about Eddie Jones never even giving him an explanation for yanking him off (gross) at half time in that South Africa game and Borthwick making a real point of trying to wipe the slate clean. Alongside dealing with epilepsy and a number of career setbacks he really sounds like he's got a great attitude.

Maybe you can call it a test of mental fortitude but I think we've seen that kind of poor management defeat players before. I think Burrell was quite open about that.

[Scrumhead]

Me too. My point on Dombrandt specifically is that I’d back NZ or France to succeed where (so far) England have failed. Whether that’s psychological or tactical, I don’t know?

He hasn’t performed at test level but he has shone against pseudo international teams like UBB and Toulouse so I think the capability is there.

Should we build a team around him? 100% no. However, if we could somehow ‘make it click’, I think he’d be an asset worth having. He isn’t a forward masquerading as a back as Simmonds was at times and I don’t think he needs the level of compromises others are making out. International defences will soak up direct play most of the time so having some subtlety with running lines and handling would be a good option to have.

FWIW, I wouldn’t have him in the 23, I just don’t agree with him being a no hoper.

[Banquo]

Your argument has some merit right up to this point.

Dombrandt has looked powderpuff at international level so far. Work rate and physicality are poor in an England shirt. I just don't think he's got the extra gear to deal with the increase in intensity and physicality that comes with the international game, ditto Ben Curry. NZ already have a Dombrandt equivalent in Hoskins Sotutu who can't get into the international side and he's nowhere near physical enough to get near French selection. The French backrow are full of absolute warriors with Aldritt, Jelonch, Cros and Ollivon. Dombrandt would be a luxury pick they don't seem to favour in their backrow.

Ireland can also use Baird in the second row before needing Isiekwe then having their own athletic style lock/6 in Izuchukwu who's got potential to step up but not shown it yet.

Our resources at lock are pretty bare and despite us having some genuinely intriguing backrow prospects they aren't on show in the 23. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that Coles, Pearson and TWillis would have been a bench that we could have selected that would have given us more to forward for later in the game.

Couple of locks are injured but overall we look pretty strong at lock surely. Itoje, Martin, Chessum backed up by Coles, Ewels, Batley….before you get to Isiekwe, Jonny Hill…

That list gives us three viable options competing for a spot in the 23. One decent back up option who could kick on. Two guys that have been in and around squads for a while but who we know are unlikely to ever be more than squad filler. Batley I've liked as a player for a while now but he's an uncapped 28 year old who looks exciting for his club but unfancied by the international coaches, a Freddie Clarke V2. Jonny Hill is a non-entity right now as he can't play.

What we really need is one of the next generation to kick on and start pushing Coles. Give us five players in those upper brackets. If that could be an Arthur Clark or a George Hammond that would be good. Big lads who are decent at the set piece.

hardly threadbare though, three top options, Coles who could kick on (and imo is already a decent quality lock), Ewels who has 30 caps blah blah. Compared to front row and midfield positively rolling in it. Take away other countries top 3 locks, what do you have left? Asking for 5 top class locks seems a bit extravagent....anyway, it wouldn't be in the top 5 of my concerns at present.

[Banquo]

Yeah, pretty much.

I'm at the point I'll be quite surprised if it suddenly clicks for Dombrandt. He is a player you can really build a pack/attack around but that simply wouldn't happen at international level.

On a sidenote I just watched that little featurette thing with Tommy Freeman, he talks about Eddie Jones never even giving him an explanation for yanking him off (gross) at half time in that South Africa game and Borthwick making a real point of trying to wipe the slate clean. Alongside dealing with epilepsy and a number of career setbacks he really sounds like he's got a great attitude.

Maybe you can call it a test of mental fortitude but I think we've seen that kind of poor management defeat players before. I think Burrell was quite open about that.

Burrell wasn't very good though. Brutal old game. But yes, there may be other casualties.

[Oakboy]

Dombrandt has 17 caps. I'd be interested to know how he is going to leap forward in international presence now, having not done so in that reasonable trial stint. His presence in the squad indicates that there is still hope in some minds presumably. My concern is the extent to which persisting with him undermines better prospects. It's kind of like persisting with Tuilagi year on year, using up a squad place pointlessly.

[FKAS]

Couple of locks are injured but overall we look pretty strong at lock surely. Itoje, Martin, Chessum backed up by Coles, Ewels, Batley….before you get to Isiekwe, Jonny Hill…

That list gives us three viable options competing for a spot in the 23. One decent back up option who could kick on. Two guys that have been in and around squads for a while but who we know are unlikely to ever be more than squad filler. Batley I've liked as a player for a while now but he's an uncapped 28 year old who looks exciting for his club but unfancied by the international coaches, a Freddie Clarke V2. Jonny Hill is a non-entity right now as he can't play.

What we really need is one of the next generation to kick on and start pushing Coles. Give us five players in those upper brackets. If that could be an Arthur Clark or a George Hammond that would be good. Big lads who are decent at the set piece.

hardly threadbare though, three top options, Coles who could kick on (and imo is already a decent quality lock), Ewels who has 30 caps blah blah. Compared to front row and midfield positively rolling in it. Take away other countries top 3 locks, what do you have left? Asking for 5 top class locks seems a bit extravagent....anyway, it wouldn't be in the top 5 of my concerns at present.

Five lock options like France, Ireland or South Africa? Please.

Front row. We've got two experienced Lions hookers and Theo Dan coming through well plus a list of promising hookers in the league.

Tighthead we've got four options in and around the squad. Solid options rather than stand out but with the next generation emerging and Heyes kicking on that's positive.

Loosehead we've got four viable options. All four of which I'd happily see starting in Genge, Baxter, Marler and Obano. Only Marler is unlikely to make the next world cup. We could do with another youngster like Ioygen, Haffar or Brantingham stepping up.

At lock I have faith in the three, think Coles can do a job at the minute and then I'm doubting the others.

[Banquo]

That list gives us three viable options competing for a spot in the 23. One decent back up option who could kick on. Two guys that have been in and around squads for a while but who we know are unlikely to ever be more than squad filler. Batley I've liked as a player for a while now but he's an uncapped 28 year old who looks exciting for his club but unfancied by the international coaches, a Freddie Clarke V2. Jonny Hill is a non-entity right now as he can't play.

What we really need is one of the next generation to kick on and start pushing Coles. Give us five players in those upper brackets. If that could be an Arthur Clark or a George Hammond that would be good. Big lads who are decent at the set piece.

hardly threadbare though, three top options, Coles who could kick on (and imo is already a decent quality lock), Ewels who has 30 caps blah blah. Compared to front row and midfield positively rolling in it. Take away other countries top 3 locks, what do you have left? Asking for 5 top class locks seems a bit extravagent....anyway, it wouldn't be in the top 5 of my concerns at present.

Five lock options like France, Ireland or South Africa? Please.

Front row. We've got two experienced Lions hookers and Theo Dan coming through well plus a list of promising hookers in the league.

Tighthead we've got four options in and around the squad. Solid options rather than stand out but with the next generation emerging and Heyes kicking on that's positive.

Loosehead we've got four viable options. All four of which I'd happily see starting in Genge, Baxter, Marler and Obano. Only Marler is unlikely to make the next world cup. We could do with another youngster like Ioygen, Haffar or Brantingham stepping up.

At lock I have faith in the three, think Coles can do a job at the minute and then I'm doubting the others.

Its a depth v quality argument then; we have better top quality at lock first choice than front row, but maybe more depth / a lot of meh (:)) esp at tighthead (though talent coming through) in the front 3; btw you've just quoted LCD at me, having discounted him earlier in the thread .

I'd be amazed if more locks don't come through though, its a traditional strength.

[Puja]

Yeah, pretty much.

I'm at the point I'll be quite surprised if it suddenly clicks for Dombrandt. He is a player you can really build a pack/attack around but that simply wouldn't happen at international level.

On a sidenote I just watched that little featurette thing with Tommy Freeman, he talks about Eddie Jones never even giving him an explanation for yanking him off (gross) at half time in that South Africa game and Borthwick making a real point of trying to wipe the slate clean. Alongside dealing with epilepsy and a number of career setbacks he really sounds like he's got a great attitude.

Maybe you can call it a test of mental fortitude but I think we've seen that kind of poor management defeat players before. I think Burrell was quite open about that.

Burrell wasn't very good though. Brutal old game. But yes, there may be other casualties.

Burrell got shafted because of Farrell - in that game it wasn't the centres that was the problem, but a complete lack of direction at fly-half and Burrell was the one sacrificed to bring Ford on (cause of course we couldn't drop golden boy).

Puja

[Banquo]

Yeah, pretty much.

I'm at the point I'll be quite surprised if it suddenly clicks for Dombrandt. He is a player you can really build a pack/attack around but that simply wouldn't happen at international level.

On a sidenote I just watched that little featurette thing with Tommy Freeman, he talks about Eddie Jones never even giving him an explanation for yanking him off (gross) at half time in that South Africa game and Borthwick making a real point of trying to wipe the slate clean. Alongside dealing with epilepsy and a number of career setbacks he really sounds like he's got a great attitude.

Maybe you can call it a test of mental fortitude but I think we've seen that kind of poor management defeat players before. I think Burrell was quite open about that.

Burrell wasn't very good though. Brutal old game. But yes, there may be other casualties.

Burrell got shafted because of Farrell - in that game it wasn't the centres that was the problem, but a complete lack of direction at fly-half and Burrell was the one sacrificed to bring Ford on (cause of course we couldn't drop golden boy).

Puja

He still wasn't very good . IIRC he had missed a couple of tackles too.

[Mikey Brown]

My point was more in being thankful Freeman didn't go that way, and that Borthwick seems to have a different attitude. Seems a bit weird to just focus on Burrell being a bad player, but whatever.

[FKAS]

hardly threadbare though, three top options, Coles who could kick on (and imo is already a decent quality lock), Ewels who has 30 caps blah blah. Compared to front row and midfield positively rolling in it. Take away other countries top 3 locks, what do you have left? Asking for 5 top class locks seems a bit extravagent....anyway, it wouldn't be in the top 5 of my concerns at present.

Five lock options like France, Ireland or South Africa? Please.

Front row. We've got two experienced Lions hookers and Theo Dan coming through well plus a list of promising hookers in the league.

Tighthead we've got four options in and around the squad. Solid options rather than stand out but with the next generation emerging and Heyes kicking on that's positive.

Loosehead we've got four viable options. All four of which I'd happily see starting in Genge, Baxter, Marler and Obano. Only Marler is unlikely to make the next world cup. We could do with another youngster like Ioygen, Haffar or Brantingham stepping up.

At lock I have faith in the three, think Coles can do a job at the minute and then I'm doubting the others.

Its a depth v quality argument then; we have better top quality at lock first choice than front row, but maybe more depth / a lot of meh (:)) esp at tighthead (though talent coming through) in the front 3; btw you've just quoted LCD at me, having discounted him earlier in the thread .

I'd be amazed if more locks don't come through though, its a traditional strength.

I discounted LCD as a long term option, as third choice right now it's good. Get Blake and Jibulu into the A team and advancing with one hopefully displacing him around this time next year.

Yeah the quality of the three locks does outweigh what we've got at prop, you're not wrong but yeah the depth in the front row I have more faith in. Just a bit more to come through at lock would make a difference.

[Banquo]

My point was more in being thankful Freeman didn't go that way, and that Borthwick seems to have a different attitude. Seems a bit weird to just focus on Burrell being a bad player, but whatever.

well you mentioned him, and there was some context.

[Puja]

Was reading an article about Itoje and how he was involved with the negotiations for the EPS Enhanced Contracts, and also how he went over the max games limit last year and probably will do again this year with the Lions. Direct quote was, "I don’t think it is necessarily wise to be playing that amount of games every year. It is a bit of a difficult one and it does require management. In an ideal world, we just need to be really clever about the England games, because no one wants to miss any England games. You don’t want to miss big games for your club either, so it does require some working through."

Made me wonder if we're going to engage in some SA-style rotation this autumn - not just for player welfare, but also to look at the options in the squad. Japan is the obvious game to rotate in players, with them being the weakest and the last game, but we don't want to go full 2nd XV on them as they are still pretty good (and no-one wants to give Eddie a chance to crow). I wonder if we might rotate some players for the Australia game as well?

Puja

[Oakboy]

Was reading an article about Itoje and how he was involved with the negotiations for the EPS Enhanced Contracts, and also how he went over the max games limit last year and probably will do again this year with the Lions. Direct quote was, "I don’t think it is necessarily wise to be playing that amount of games every year. It is a bit of a difficult one and it does require management. In an ideal world, we just need to be really clever about the England games, because no one wants to miss any England games. You don’t want to miss big games for your club either, so it does require some working through."

Made me wonder if we're going to engage in some SA-style rotation this autumn - not just for player welfare, but also to look at the options in the squad. Japan is the obvious game to rotate in players, with them being the weakest and the last game, but we don't want to go full 2nd XV on them as they are still pretty good (and no-one wants to give Eddie a chance to crow). I wonder if we might rotate some players for the Australia game as well?

Puja

If rotating means starting some of this week's bench it would be the square root of F/A in terms of development!