RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote:Malins straight in at 10. I dont see that, not with Farrell still in the squad. I'm convinced he will start as he needs some game time with Italy the following week. Malins could well find himself a spot on the bench.
Hope Sinckler is rested (he'll be back for Italy) and there are plenty of other back row options so there's no need to rush Earl into the side.

Same here. Agree on all of that, although I’d like to see Malins get a start at 15.

what a pile of forced wank.


With all due respect, of course.

morepork wrote:what a pile of forced wank.


With all due respect, of course.

Now, now. We have to tolerate Jones, remember, and he's not useful enough to justify anything masturbational!

Oakboy wrote:

morepork wrote:what a pile of forced wank.


With all due respect, of course.

Now, now. We have to tolerate Jones, remember, and he's not useful enough to justify anything masturbational!

If you choose to rub one out to Wigglesworth, that's your own cross to bear.

Scrumhead wrote:

jngf wrote:

Puja wrote:
Not necessarily. If he's there to support the squad until Earl and Willis are released from club duty, then no. He's not ahead of anyone untoward in this current squad - BCurry's injured and Ludlam's been COVIDed (and probably would be behind Wilson anyway).

If he's picked ahead of Hill/Dombrandt on the bench, then probably. If Earl and Willis are not added to the squad next week and he is retained in their stead, then yes, definitely.

Puja

The Ludlum / Wilson choice would be interesting in a COVID free context, personally feel Ludlum had raised the bar for what a 6 could do beyond the Robshaw/Wilson traditional 6 approach (and Ludlum 6 T Curry 7 looked nice balanced pairing ) - could also see Willis making a similar bar raiding impact at 6.

Bringing Ludlow into earlier training squad is a left field selection in a similar vein to his near-namesake above.

What is it that you love so much about Ludlam? And in what way has he ‘raised the bar’?

I think he’s a good player and I wouldn’t dismiss him as a decent squad option, but honestly, I’d take any of the current back row players in this squad (including Mark Wilson) and I also prefer Willis, Earl, Ben Curry and Sam Simmonds, so that puts him in a long queue.

Obviously Wilson doesn’t have any recent form to be measured by, but has always been at least very good and often excellent for England. I’m happy for him to be included on that basis. Ludlam’s been good, but nothing so ‘bar raisingly’ spectacular to warrant why he’d be so high on your list? What am I missing?

For me Wilson is a good team player and will do a competent/serviceable job wherever he’s Placed in backrow (though far keener on him at 6 than 7 or 8) but for me he’s basically in the squad as the “glue” player just like Robshaw was (the style of both is very close). Whilst Ludlum has had far less time so far to demonstrate his worth I find him a more exciting player to watch and he appears to have more athletic ability and pace about the field than Wilson. As we always talk about balance on here an attacking player like Ludlum or for that matter Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl played on one flank with the more defensive qualities of Underhill on the other would seem to me to be more balanced in a Magne/Betsen style than having 2 perm two from T Curry, M Wilson, S Underhill which I don’t think has quite the same attacking potency. Yes, people will say T Curry is one of our best attacking forwards - well I would agree with you until some idiot moved him to 6 and then 8

OK. I understand where your going with it, but I’m still unsure about why you see Ludlam as an ‘attacking’ flanker though?

I agree his pace and athleticism is superior to Wilson’s, but I’d say his primary assets are work rate, aggression and stamina. His carrying and support play are pretty good but not that notable and he’s not a particularly strong jackal. He’s a decent all rounder IMO but is outshone by players who are better attackers, better defenders, better at the breakdown. In other words, he has no real USP.

What Wilson has that most of the others lack is the almost inexplicable ‘glue’ piece you made reference to. He is one of those players that is almost always exactly where he needs to be to make the right interventions in attack or defence. That is a skill that is hard to find and not to be underestimated.

Scrumhead wrote:What Wilson has that most of the others lack is the almost inexplicable ‘glue’ piece you made reference to. He is one of those players that is almost always exactly where he needs to be to make the right interventions in attack or defence. That is a skill that is hard to find and not to be underestimated.

This is hitting the nail directly on the head. A perfect example is the RWC semi-final - late in the second half and NZ finally get around the England defence and make a clean break. Ford brings down the winger and who is the first man there? Wilson and he effects the turnover (possibly on the verge of legality, but that's by the by). It's a game turning moment - New Zealand recycle and score and it's a very different last 10 minutes.

He didn't get the turnover because he was fast or strong or dynamic. He got it because he read the game and was in position before other people realised they needed to react. That kind of rugby nous is built up over time (and often by players who aren't lightning quick or super strong cause they've always had to work smarter) and it's not something that Ludlam has yet.

Puja

Fuckin A Puja. England took our counter punching right out of the equation in that game precisely because of the natural nous of a core of key players.


So please, persist with Farrell and his wooden soldier ilk.

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:What Wilson has that most of the others lack is the almost inexplicable ‘glue’ piece you made reference to. He is one of those players that is almost always exactly where he needs to be to make the right interventions in attack or defence. That is a skill that is hard to find and not to be underestimated.

This is hitting the nail directly on the head. A perfect example is the RWC semi-final - late in the second half and NZ finally get around the England defence and make a clean break. Ford brings down the winger and who is the first man there? Wilson and he effects the turnover (possibly on the verge of legality, but that's by the by). It's a game turning moment - New Zealand recycle and score and it's a very different last 10 minutes.

He didn't get the turnover because he was fast or strong or dynamic. He got it because he read the game and was in position before other people realised they needed to react. That kind of rugby nous is built up over time (and often by players who aren't lightning quick or super strong cause they've always had to work smarter) and it's not something that Ludlam has yet.

Puja

More to the point, it’s not something everyone can develop. Some players just have this innate ability to read the game and while it can definitely be improved, it definitely comes naturally to some players more than others.

That’s not a slight on Ludlam who is a very good player. It’s more of a compliment to Wilson.

It’s such a shame Wilson didn’t get a proper chance sooner. He could have been a massive asset in years gone by. It’s not like he was a late developer either - probably more a case of playing for an unfashionable club. I remember a Saxons game vs. the Irish Wolfhounds where he put in a cracking performance, but never got a shot at the full England side. That must have been pre-2015.

Don’t let this disguise the fact that Wilson is ridiculously athletic (Whatever that word means in rugby terms these days). May lose a couple points in top end speed, but every other aspect of his physicality would be the near the top end of flankers in the world.

Yeah, it’s funny how he went from absolute nobody to the new Richard Hill, then to seemingly being near-bottom of the list of about 15 backrows in the space of a couple of seasons.

Mikey Brown wrote:Yeah, it’s funny how he went from absolute nobody to the new Richard Hill, then to seemingly being near-bottom of the list of about 15 backrows in the space of a couple of seasons.

Quite. Jones seems to have fallen in and out of love with him. He even picked Newcastle's other flanker in his squad at one point. What the hell was his name? Graham?

But, should we expect anything else? Jones has been so stubborn and set in his ways about players in/out of popularity. The problem positions at 9/12 remain unsolved and it still looks to me like he has failed to test some yet persevered (oddly) with others.

Let's face it, he is incredibly lucky with his backrow options now - such that messing Wilson about has not cost him.

Which Tyler wrote:Ahhh... The good old days of blaggong a couple of players off the hosts in order to put a team out...
Memories

With those two players being outstanding, young Fred on the wing considered too small by the oppo turned the home sides back 3 inside out whilst running in a hattrick of tries followed up by Big Dave not happy about being loaned out hospitalising 3 of the home team and finishing the 10s season(who the home team had paid big money to get over from Gore in Southland NZ and were unaware he was wanted back home by the police after a raid found he had 6 shipping containers growing NZ Green)

Mikey Brown wrote:Yeah, it’s funny how he went from absolute nobody to the new Richard Hill, then to seemingly being near-bottom of the list of about 15 backrows in the space of a couple of seasons.

We shall call him Reginald

Oakboy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Yeah, it’s funny how he went from absolute nobody to the new Richard Hill, then to seemingly being near-bottom of the list of about 15 backrows in the space of a couple of seasons.

Quite. Jones seems to have fallen in and out of love with him. He even picked Newcastle's other flanker in his squad at one point. What the hell was his name? Graham?

But, should we expect anything else? Jones has been so stubborn and set in his ways about players in/out of popularity. The problem positions at 9/12 remain unsolved and it still looks to me like he has failed to test some yet persevered (oddly) with others.

Let's face it, he is incredibly lucky with his backrow options now - such that messing Wilson about has not cost him.

He hasn’t noticeably messed Wilson about since he was first selected- when he’s been fit, he’s generally picked him into squads. The messing about was him not getting a sniff before. Iirc he bent over backwards to involve him in the RWC key games.

He is also a very athletic and adaptable player.

Yep. Since pissing about by selecting Gary Graham, I’d argue Wilson’s established himself as one of Eddie’s favourites.

He’s always picked when fit, including right now when he hasn’t played in almost a year.

The only reason he’s a little way down most of our pecking orders is not on ability or attitude and simply down to age and the quality of the competition coming through.

Wilson probably won’t make the next RWC and we’d probably be better served investing in players like Willis or Hill’s development.

I didnt think Jones would pick Wilson for this series of games because of his lack of rugby. I'm pleased he has and will be perfectly happy to see him add to his caps.
I don't think we need to see a massive churn in the playing squad at this stage. There is a requirement to see what a few players can bring, but i still think Wilson will have something to offer for the next year at least.

I get the feeling Wilson has really stepped up in the last 12/18 months as a more vocal and leadership presence in the squad (that’s largely because I have heard a couple of interviews with England players who have literally said just that).

I rate him highly, and I think he’s currently better than a number of the youngsters being touted for his position in the squad. But it’s a tough balance between picking your best team to win now, and giving some of the tyros game time so they’re ready for the next World Cup.

Scrumhead wrote:Wilson probably won’t make the next RWC and we’d probably be better served investing in players like Willis or Hill’s development.

Tough one isn’t it? He’ll have just turned 34, which on the face you’d say is pushing it for the next World Cup. But he looks to be in ridiculous shape, and has just had about a 17 month period where he’s played something like 9 games.

It is. He’s more than good enough to stay in the picture, but if Willis can make the step up to test rugby, he could be a world beater.

Ted Hill is also ridiculously good considering his age.

Game could be off!

Baabaa’s players broke covid bubble. RFU trying to source more players.

Jesus f*ck. Apparently some of them went out for a pissup outside of the COVID bubble. What incredible idiots. After the work that has gone in by the Barbarians to make this game at all - I know I've been complaining about the quality of the opposition, but it's a miracle they managed to get a side even remotely this competitive together at all.

It's apparently a specific group of players, who were separated from the rest as soon as they got back to the hotel. Would the Saracens clique be that stupid - you wouldn't've thought so with old heads like Wigglesworth and Swinson, but maybe the young guns got a bad idea into their head? Or maybe the Fijians went en masse, given that COVID and lockdowns are not really a thing in Fiji? Decision apparently due 3pm Friday. Names of players dropped will not be given unless the game goes ahead.

The only way I can see for the game to go ahead is for either England or Exeter (or both) to lend them some players from outside their match-day XXIII. I'm going to assume Wasps don't have players to spare and Brizzle have now left their bubble. Depends on how many players are needed and what the political will is to have this game played. If it is just all about the money and not being stuck with the bill from Sky if the game is called off, would the RFU prefer not to play and hand the blame and the bill over to the Barbarians?

Puja

Idiots. Surely no-one can be that unaware situation now?

I don’t care that much about this game, but I do care about Robshaw being d!cked over (I very much doubt he was one of the ‘group’).

Extraordinary. How these cretins manage to lace up their boots is something of a mystery if they cannot adhere to the guidelines which would have been laid down.
On the farce-o-meter this game has now moved deep into the very high level.

Scrumhead wrote:Idiots. Surely no-one can be that unaware situation now?

I don’t care that much about this game, but I do care about Robshaw being d!cked over (I very much doubt he was one of the ‘group’).

Ditto. Saw this today and it put a smile that I needed on my face:



I hope the game can take place, for him.

Puja