England vs Argentina

[Oakboy]

Jones putting faith in Argentina to cough up a kickable penalty rather than making smart changes to wrestle the game away from them.

But, as has been pointed out above, the 6:2 bench limited options (there were just straight swaps available for 9/13). Beyond that, what changes were possible? The Smith/Farrell combination presents limitations that seem inescapable. Had Tuilagi not injured himself with his blister, dumping Farrell for Slade might have opened up options. Even moving him to 10 and dumping Smith might have made the opposition face something different.

[p/d]

Jones putting faith in Argentina to cough up a kickable penalty rather than making smart changes to wrestle the game away from them.

But, as has been pointed out above, the 6:2 bench limited options (there were just straight swaps available for 9/13). Beyond that, what changes were possible? The Smith/Farrell combination presents limitations that seem inescapable. Had Tuilagi not injured himself with his blister, dumping Farrell for Slade might have opened up options. Even moving him to 10 and dumping Smith might have made the opposition face something different.

Not justifying the 6:2 split (though it was typical of Jones to go with it). Nowell to 13, Steward out wide and Slade in at FB. Give our 10/12 someone to cross field kick to. Early move of Itoje with Willis coming on and keeping Genge going for longer - all possible even with our hands tied. Hell, Ribbans could have changed the dynamic a bit.

[Puja]

A sad thing is that that could quite plausibly be the entire sum of Ribbans' international career. If Eddie chooses the radical tactic of playing two flankers against Japan, or if Lawes passes his RTP, then Coles will surely go into the 19 shirt and Ribbans will be out, likely forever overtaken by the likes of Tizard coming through.

Poor sod. I hate being on the bench and there's nothing worse than watching the whole game, waiting for your chance every second, and then having to get changed back out of completely unsullied rugby kit at the end.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Jones putting faith in Argentina to cough up a kickable penalty rather than making smart changes to wrestle the game away from them.

But, as has been pointed out above, the 6:2 bench limited options (there were just straight swaps available for 9/13). Beyond that, what changes were possible? The Smith/Farrell combination presents limitations that seem inescapable. Had Tuilagi not injured himself with his blister, dumping Farrell for Slade might have opened up options. Even moving him to 10 and dumping Smith might have made the opposition face something different.

Not justifying the 6:2 split (though it was typical of Jones to go with it). Nowell to 13, Steward out wide and Slade in at FB. Give our 10/12 someone to cross field kick to. Early move of Itoje with Willis coming on and keeping Genge going for longer - all possible even with our hands tied. Hell, Ribbans could have changed the dynamic a bit.

p/d, you are being imaginative. Jones would not understand.

[Mikey Brown]

I think his response prior to the game about the 6:2 was something like “because that’s how the modern game is actually played, I decided against 7:1”, but once again he’s loaded the bench with players he seemingly doesn’t even trust.

RE the Argentina try - I guess I’m just trying to actually enjoy something about the game. I don’t mind if a smart, well executed attacking move can beat an organised defence. I feel like that’s the way it should be. Sure Nowell could have been stood wider initially, but I don’t know that he’d have been able to do anything when Argentina took the short option instead. Players who are lighter on their feet in that situation would be nice though.

Not aiming this at anybody here, but I keep seeing this attitude from English fans that conceding points/tries is only ever down to us being poor and never the opposition being good, because we’re entitled to be one of the best teams and Argentina are so far beneath us.

[Mellsblue]

RE the Argentina try - I guess I’m just trying to actually enjoy something about the game.

I’m glad it happened just so Sonia could throw it at Farrell when he came up with some bs excuse in his post match interview. I’ll add that she threw it more accurately than anything Farrell threw during the match.

[Mellsblue]

I don't get the point of picking Smith if you're going to ask him to do that. If that's the gameplan, there's no need for him there, just pick your dirty wank stain at 10 and be done with it. Don't pick Dombrandt when he's fit, either, and Murley doesn't get a look in. In fact, just ignore Quins, we don't want to be sullied with that utter crap.

Seriously, it's paint by numbers rugby. It's like Eddie has done all this statistical analysis...but his analysis was on the West Sussex u12s and he didn't realise that 'give it to the big guy' isn't a viable tactic for grown men, no matter what Mark Evans would have you believe.

#justice4dirtywankstains

[Mikey Brown]

RE the Argentina try - I guess I’m just trying to actually enjoy something about the game.

I’m glad it happened just so Sonia could throw it at Farrell when he came up with some bs excuse in his post match interview. I’ll add that she threw it more accurately than anything Farrell threw during the match.

I loved this particular bit in the Eddie press conference regarding the second Argentina try. I don't get involved in reffing decisions, but here's why it was wrong.



"The best players in the world don't generally do that"

The camera person missed a real opportunity there to whip-pan across to Faz.

[Puja]

RE the Argentina try - I guess I’m just trying to actually enjoy something about the game.

I’m glad it happened just so Sonia could throw it at Farrell when he came up with some bs excuse in his post match interview. I’ll add that she threw it more accurately than anything Farrell threw during the match.

I loved this particular bit in the Eddie press conference regarding the second Argentina try. I don't get involved in reffing decisions, but here's why it was wrong.



"The best players in the world don't generally do that"

The camera person missed a real opportunity there to whip-pan across to Faz.

I think there very likely was a touch on the ball, but it was so minor that the pass was never actually reaching Vunipola's hands anyway. It was a terrible pass that might've just flicked the back of the Argentine hand, rather than a decent one ruined by an intervention.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

As you’ve alluded to MB, I’m surprised to hear him admit Farrell isn’t one of the best players in the world…

[Mellsblue]

I’m glad it happened just so Sonia could throw it at Farrell when he came up with some bs excuse in his post match interview. I’ll add that she threw it more accurately than anything Farrell threw during the match.

I loved this particular bit in the Eddie press conference regarding the second Argentina try. I don't get involved in reffing decisions, but here's why it was wrong.



"The best players in the world don't generally do that"

The camera person missed a real opportunity there to whip-pan across to Faz.

I think there very likely was a touch on the ball, but it was so minor that the pass was never actually reaching Vunipola's hands anyway. It was a terrible pass that might've just flicked the back of the Argentine hand, rather than a decent one ruined by an intervention.

Puja

This is my take.

[p/d]

RE the Argentina try - I guess I’m just trying to actually enjoy something about the game. I don’t mind if a smart, well executed attacking move can beat an organised defence. I feel like that’s the way it should be. Sure Nowell could have been stood wider initially, but I don’t know that he’d have been able to do anything when Argentina took the short option instead. Players who are lighter on their feet in that situation would be nice though.

Not aiming this at anybody here, but I keep seeing this attitude from English fans that conceding points/tries is only ever down to us being poor and never the opposition being good, because we’re entitled to be one of the best teams and Argentina are so far beneath us.

It was a very well executed try and deserves being recognised as such. Ditto our first try. Manu fixed two defenders (not a mistake by Argentina) giving Coka the space to roll around a bit before falling to the line.

All I was referring to was that the play by Argentina had Manu turning inwards and Nowell following, creating the space. This was good play by Argentina.

[fivepointer]

Love seeing a try scored off first phase. Kudos to Argentina.

[Banquo]

I think his response prior to the game about the 6:2 was something like “because that’s how the modern game is actually played, I decided against 7:1”, but once again he’s loaded the bench with players he seemingly doesn’t even trust.

RE the Argentina try - I guess I’m just trying to actually enjoy something about the game. I don’t mind if a smart, well executed attacking move can beat an organised defence. I feel like that’s the way it should be. Sure Nowell could have been stood wider initially, but I don’t know that he’d have been able to do anything when Argentina took the short option instead. Players who are lighter on their feet in that situation would be nice though.

Not aiming this at anybody here, but I keep seeing this attitude from English fans that conceding points/tries is only ever down to us being poor and never the opposition being good, because we’re entitled to be one of the best teams and Argentina are so far beneath us.

I made the point earlier in the thread that Argentina are a decent side and that it was well executed- they have beaten NZ and Oz this year- but I'd have been disappointed to concede that try to anyone. It could and should have been prevented in a few ways- the system didn't look very clear and the people in the system did not do what they were meant to (as far as I can tell). I also made the same point about systems when we played Oz.

[Banquo]

I’m glad it happened just so Sonia could throw it at Farrell when he came up with some bs excuse in his post match interview. I’ll add that she threw it more accurately than anything Farrell threw during the match.

I loved this particular bit in the Eddie press conference regarding the second Argentina try. I don't get involved in reffing decisions, but here's why it was wrong.



"The best players in the world don't generally do that"

The camera person missed a real opportunity there to whip-pan across to Faz.

I think there very likely was a touch on the ball, but it was so minor that the pass was never actually reaching Vunipola's hands anyway. It was a terrible pass that might've just flicked the back of the Argentine hand, rather than a decent one ruined by an intervention.

Puja

Not sure that's a great argument tbh, a knock on is a knock on; I thought it brushed his hand. But the real problem for me was Faz wasting time protesting rather than reacting. Not sure he would have caught him mind.

[Banquo]

RE the Argentina try - I guess I’m just trying to actually enjoy something about the game. I don’t mind if a smart, well executed attacking move can beat an organised defence. I feel like that’s the way it should be. Sure Nowell could have been stood wider initially, but I don’t know that he’d have been able to do anything when Argentina took the short option instead. Players who are lighter on their feet in that situation would be nice though.

Not aiming this at anybody here, but I keep seeing this attitude from English fans that conceding points/tries is only ever down to us being poor and never the opposition being good, because we’re entitled to be one of the best teams and Argentina are so far beneath us.

It was a very well executed try and deserves being recognised as such. Ditto our first try. Manu fixed two defenders (not a mistake by Argentina) giving Coka the space to roll around a bit before falling to the line.

All I was referring to was that the play by Argentina had Manu turning inwards and Nowell following, creating the space. This was good play by Argentina.

I dunno, good defenders would hang off a bit and let the play develop a bit more before biting in; as above, well done, and maybe analysis of how we have defended in recent tests...but ultimately they ran round an undisrupted back line defence.

[Peej]

I loved this particular bit in the Eddie press conference regarding the second Argentina try. I don't get involved in reffing decisions, but here's why it was wrong.



"The best players in the world don't generally do that"

The camera person missed a real opportunity there to whip-pan across to Faz.

I think there very likely was a touch on the ball, but it was so minor that the pass was never actually reaching Vunipola's hands anyway. It was a terrible pass that might've just flicked the back of the Argentine hand, rather than a decent one ruined by an intervention.

Puja

Not sure that's a great argument tbh, a knock on is a knock on; I thought it brushed his hand. But the real problem for me was Faz wasting time protesting rather than reacting. Not sure he would have caught him mind.

My Dad went ballistic at that point. And when the try was given said, 'Serves Farrell right' - which I think is a majority view, really?

Eddie will make few changes as he rarely does after a loss. I think the only time he's made radical changes after any sort of game was that one against Japan. Now it will be the 'we need a chance to bounce back, not the time to bring in inexperience' excuse.

Thing is, we have to start asking legitimate questions. Who is going to play 12 if either Farrell or Smith get injured? Seriously, who? He can't be relying on Manu.

[Banquo]

I think there very likely was a touch on the ball, but it was so minor that the pass was never actually reaching Vunipola's hands anyway. It was a terrible pass that might've just flicked the back of the Argentine hand, rather than a decent one ruined by an intervention.

Puja

Not sure that's a great argument tbh, a knock on is a knock on; I thought it brushed his hand. But the real problem for me was Faz wasting time protesting rather than reacting. Not sure he would have caught him mind.

My Dad went ballistic at that point. And when the try was given said, 'Serves Farrell right' - which I think is a majority view, really?

Eddie will make few changes as he rarely does after a loss. I think the only time he's made radical changes after any sort of game was that one against Japan. Now it will be the 'we need a chance to bounce back, not the time to bring in inexperience' excuse.

Thing is, we have to start asking legitimate questions. Who is going to play 12 if either Farrell or Smith get injured? Seriously, who? He can't be relying on Manu.

Slade probably.

[Peej]

Ok, but when are we going to see it?

[Oakboy]

Not sure that's a great argument tbh, a knock on is a knock on; I thought it brushed his hand. But the real problem for me was Faz wasting time protesting rather than reacting. Not sure he would have caught him mind.

A stricter ref could have taken issue with the mannerisms of Farrell, Itoje and Genge. I think the discipline issues start with such attitudes and I wonder why body language/referee interchange is not sorted out in the training camp. Surely, the huge back-stage entourage includes somebody who could get that right.

[Peej]

Eddie will make few changes as he rarely does after a loss. I think the only time he's made radical changes after any sort of game was that one against Japan. Now it will be the 'we need a chance to bounce back, not the time to bring in inexperience' excuse.

Thing is, we have to start asking legitimate questions. Who is going to play 12 if either Farrell or Smith get injured? Seriously, who? He can't be relying on Manu.

On this note, Eddie has selected 194 players for training squads. 76 have been given debuts, 83 have been discarded entirely. 147 have won less than 10 caps, 47 have won more than 10.

Maybe he just doesn't rate English players, which is fine. But how does that square with what is served up in the Premiership and the quality English players consistently deliver there?

[rjjb]

Eddie will make few changes as he rarely does after a loss. I think the only time he's made radical changes after any sort of game was that one against Japan. Now it will be the 'we need a chance to bounce back, not the time to bring in inexperience' excuse.

Thing is, we have to start asking legitimate questions. Who is going to play 12 if either Farrell or Smith get injured? Seriously, who? He can't be relying on Manu.

On this note, Eddie has selected 194 players for training squads. 76 have been given debuts, 83 have been discarded entirely. 147 have won less than 10 caps, 47 have won more than 10.

Maybe he just doesn't rate English players, which is fine. But how does that square with what is served up in the Premiership and the quality English players consistently deliver there?

Defence is quite often close to optional in some of the domestic games.

[fivepointer]

Eddie will make few changes as he rarely does after a loss. I think the only time he's made radical changes after any sort of game was that one against Japan. Now it will be the 'we need a chance to bounce back, not the time to bring in inexperience' excuse.

Thing is, we have to start asking legitimate questions. Who is going to play 12 if either Farrell or Smith get injured? Seriously, who? He can't be relying on Manu.

On this note, Eddie has selected 194 players for training squads. 76 have been given debuts, 83 have been discarded entirely. 147 have won less than 10 caps, 47 have won more than 10.

Maybe he just doesn't rate English players, which is fine. But how does that square with what is served up in the Premiership and the quality English players consistently deliver there?

I saw those numbers earlier. The one that stood out was the 147 players with less than 10 caps. Thats quite a turnover.

[Banquo]

Not sure that's a great argument tbh, a knock on is a knock on; I thought it brushed his hand. But the real problem for me was Faz wasting time protesting rather than reacting. Not sure he would have caught him mind.

A stricter ref could have taken issue with the mannerisms of Farrell, Itoje and Genge. I think the discipline issues start with such attitudes and I wonder why body language/referee interchange is not sorted out in the training camp. Surely, the huge back-stage entourage includes somebody who could get that right.

on the pitch skipper should be sorting but he is a poor role model. Pretty sure strongwords are exchanged off the park, but tbh we just keep being dim.

[Banquo]

Ok, but when are we going to see it?

last 6n?