RugbyRebels

Coco wrote:You are doing the right thing... Taking one for the team.

Knew you'd understand

rowan wrote:

And remember how that Bush quote was actually not directly related to this incident?And remember the US expressing "deep regret" and paying $131 million dollars to Iran as a result ($61M of which in compensation to families of the deceased)?

I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of it, but a bit of balance would be good.

Lizard wrote:

rowan wrote:

And remember how that Bush quote was actually not directly related to this incident?And remember the US expressing "deep regret" and paying $131 million dollars to Iran as a result ($61M of which in compensation to families of the deceased)?

I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of it, but a bit of balance would be good.

Don't let facts get in the way when you've got an obvious agenda.

Lizard wrote:

rowan wrote:

And remember how that Bush quote was actually not directly related to this incident?And remember the US expressing "deep regret" and paying $131 million dollars to Iran as a result ($61M of which in compensation to families of the deceased)?

I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of it, but a bit of balance would be good.

You're not doing the internet properly

cashead wrote:

Lizard wrote:

rowan wrote:

And remember how that Bush quote was actually not directly related to this incident?And remember the US expressing "deep regret" and paying $131 million dollars to Iran as a result ($61M of which in compensation to families of the deceased)?

I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of it, but a bit of balance would be good.

Don't let facts get in the way when you've got an obvious agenda.

See, Lizard, SEE?

Donny osmond wrote:

Coco wrote:You are doing the right thing... Taking one for the team.

Knew you'd understand

Lizard wrote:

rowan wrote:

And remember how that Bush quote was actually not directly related to this incident?And remember the US expressing "deep regret" and paying $131 million dollars to Iran as a result ($61M of which in compensation to families of the deceased)?

I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of it, but a bit of balance would be good.

What was the Bush quote related to then? I've read about this incident many times and have never come across anything to suggest it wasn't related directly to the incident. At the time the US were supporting its close ally, the right honorable Saddam Hussein, in his vicious war against the evil empire of Iran (which had thrown off American domination at the end of the previous decade). The official apology and reparations didn't come until about another decade later, I believe. & this is far from being the only passenger plane the Americans have shot down. Did America ever apologize for the CIA's involvement in the bombing of Cuban Flight 455 (and refusal to extradite the terrorists). Did its close ally Israel ever apologize for shooting down Libyan Flight 114? I know the UN ruled against them and effectively forced them to pay compensation. Incidentally Ukraine also shot down a Russian airliner in 2001, though immediately apologized & forked out huge sums in compensation.

rowan wrote:

The USS Vincennes believed it was a Tomcat. Strange one alright. A Soviet MiG downed a Korean passenger jet a few years earlier (some shpeel about it illegally entering Soviet airspace).

One side is as bad as the other eh?

rowan wrote: What was the Bush quote related to then? I've read about this incident many times and have never come across anything to suggest it wasn't related directly to the incident.

Maybe that indicates a gap in your reading?

He made a number of similar quotes during his presidential election campaign including before the Flight 655 incident (eg http://www.nytimes.com/1988/02/27/us/bu ... gning.html). Not apologizing ever for America for any reason was his general policy position (a fairly assholey kind of policy, if you ask me), not a specific, unique response to this incident. As I understand it, the precise quote in your post was made on 3 August 1988 to a group of ethnic political leaders and the orignal report did not indicate any connection to flight 655 (Houston Chronicle, 3 Aug 1988). Time magazine later made that connection which has stuck but seems to be unjustified. If you have a source showing that he made that quote in repect of Flight 655 (rather than it just being later attributed that way) then I'm happy to be corrected. Remember, Bush wasn't even president at the time so wasn't necessarily speaking on behalf of the American Government.

At the time the US were supporting its close ally, the right honorable Saddam Hussein, in his vicious war against the evil empire of Iran (which had thrown off American domination at the end of the previous decade).

Yes, but that is irrelevant to the issue of whether the meme you posted is a fair representation of the event in question.

As an aside, I remember reading a quote from some American military type just before the start of the 1991 Gulf War, responding to fears about fighting the battle-hardened Iraqi Elite Republican Guard, to the effect that the US knew exactly what Iraq's military capabilty was and the Republican Guard's "battle hardening" consisted of no more than "8 years of shooting unarmed Iranian schoolboys."

The official apology and reparations didn't come until about another decade later, I believe.

It took 7 years, 6 months. I do not know enough to comment on whether that is a reasonable period of time to investigate an incident of this sort, assess the claim and negotiate a settlement. It took 15 years for Libya to pay compensation for the Lockerbie bombing (not an exact equivalent situation, I know). Certainly even major civil commercial disputes can take longer than 7 years to resolve .

& this is far from being the only passenger plane the Americans have shot down. Did America ever apologize for the CIA's involvement in the bombing of Cuban Flight 455 (and refusal to extradite the terrorists). Did its close ally Israel ever apologize for shooting down Libyan Flight 114? I know the UN ruled against them and effectively forced them to pay compensation. Incidentally Ukraine also shot down a Russian airliner in 2001, though immediately apologized & forked out huge sums in compensation.

This is all irrelevant to the issue of the accuracy of your post.

Vengeful Glutton wrote:

rowan wrote:

The USS Vincennes believed it was a Tomcat. Strange one alright. A Soviet MiG downed a Korean passenger jet a few years earlier (some shpeel about it illegally entering Soviet airspace).

One side is as bad as the other eh?

Yes, and that was huge news - pretty much on a par with 9/11 at the time, or Lockerbie, for that matter. I recall it well. I did not hear about the shooting down of the Iranian, Libyan and Russian airliners at the time they occurred, however. Whatever news coverage there was, must have been relatively minimal.

Maybe that indicates a gap in your reading?

There's a gap in everyone's reading. So you've adopted a shoot the messenger stance here, which exposes an agenda of your own.

If you have a source showing that he made that quote in repect of Flight 655 (rather than it just being later attributed that way) then I'm happy to be corrected.

Most recently Chomsky. Don't recall the others, due to the vast amount of political history and analysis that I actually do read.

Remember, Bush wasn't even president at the time so wasn't necessarily speaking on behalf of the American Government.

Yes, of course I'm aware of that. Ronald Reagan was the frontman for the organization at the time this tragedy occurred. Bush was refusing to apologize in the face of mounting international pressure, which eventually helped bring about belated reparations.

Yes, but that is irrelevant to the issue of whether the meme you posted is a fair representation of the event in question.

So I'm also being singled out here for the 'fairness' of a meme. What's wrong with this picture? The comment you regard as 'irrelevant' was merely intended to provide a little more context. The US was backing Saddam Hussein and even helping him develop his chemical weapons program (which he also used against the Kurds in his own country).

This is all irrelevant to the issue of the accuracy of your post.

Not really.

Just glancing at the Wiki page on the massacre:

The event triggered an intense international controversy, with Iran condemning the U.S. attack. In mid-July 1988, Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati asked the United Nations Security Council to condemn the United States saying the U.S. attack "could not have been a mistake" and was a "criminal act", an "atrocity" and a "massacre". George H. W. Bush, at the time vice president of the United States in the Reagan administration, defended his country at the United Nations by arguing that the U.S. attack had been a wartime incident and that the crew of Vincennes had acted appropriately to the situation

So deep regret but no apology. Hmmm. How can there be one without the other? & exactly what was Papa Bush referring to when he made the following comment then (the same comment quoted in the meme above)?

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives, but never apologized or acknowledged wrongdoing.[13] George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on a separate occasion, speaking to a group of Republican ethnic leaders (7 Aug 1988) said: "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." The quote, although unrelated to the downing of the Iranian air liner, has been attributed as such

Basically what we have here is an attack on the meme because, although America indeed failed to apologize, it expressed regret and eventually paid compensation in what was actually a settlement to discontinue a court case the US was destined to lose. & to enforce this apparent "defence" of an American war crime, we have accusations of "gaps in reading' and "irrelevant material being posted." Don't let the cold-blooded murder of 274 civilians, including 66 children, trouble your consciences, folks. They weren't Westerners.

The photo clearly shows the plane flying close enough to the cruiser for the captain to be able to read the name of the airline and see the livery.

I don't get why the pilot was flying so close to the water though.

It's just baffling and I feel there's more to this story.

There is more to the story, but apparently it's all 'irrelevant' - and seems to have hit a nerve. Btw, it is a meme, so don't get too stressed out over the optics either...

Bloody hell. It's so lifelike!

Amazing what technology can do these days....scary too.

Thank god for social justice warriors. As an aside ever noticed one can find CIA in social justice warriors? those blighters can get in anywhere!

Digby wrote:Thank god for social justice warriors. As an aside ever noticed one can find CIA in social justice warriors? those blighters can get in anywhere!

Does Chomsky give a source? Is there any transcript or video of the actual speech? (Serious Qs. If I'm wrong I want to know).

I'm not disputing that the incident was pretty inexcusable and I'm not saying that the US govt covered itself in glory with its response. All I'm saying is that this meme is at best inaccurate by omission given that the US did express regret (no doubt diplomatically distinguishable from an actual apology), it paid compensation and the Bush quote seems to not have been made in the context it is given.


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No, I don't believe Chomsky cited a source on this particular occasion. The guy's been at it for so long, and written so many books (over 100, I believe), that I think he's earned the right to reference his own extensive knowledge without running about finding sources to verify everything he writes. & I think the meme reflected the American attitude after the massacre, particularly under Papa Bush, because they never did apologize, as the excerpts from Wiki show, and only expressed regret and paid compensation several years later to bring an end to a court case they were apparently losing. So if Bush's comments about not being an 'apologize-for-America kind of guy' were taken out of context, it was only because they summed up Washington's stance on the matter so succinctly.

Anyone got an explanation on this one?

Skip to 18:29, concerning a daily mail and AP article.

I'd like an explanation, too, on how you managed to watch 20mins of those two. You could put them in a room with drying paint and the paint would complain of boredom.

Mellsblue wrote:I'd like an explanation, too, on how you managed to watch 20mins of those two. You could put them in a room with drying paint and the paint would complain of boredom.

Oh they are painful. Didn't watch it though, was sent the link to 18:30. Obviously low key you tubers, makes it hard to find debunking stuff online but as presented it's quite shocking.

jared_7 wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:I'd like an explanation, too, on how you managed to watch 20mins of those two. You could put them in a room with drying paint and the paint would complain of boredom.

Oh they are painful. Didn't watch it though, was sent the link to 18:30. Obviously low key you tubers, makes it hard to find debunking stuff online but as presented it's quite shocking.

Fair enough. I'll let you off this time. Yep, as presented it's bad. Though, the idea that the daily mail is anything other than incredibly poor journalism isn't ground breaking news. Their front cover would tell you that much on any given day.