Obesity as a disease

[Numbers]

Digby, mate, think back to some time when you were tired and stressed. Remember how easy it is to not be thinking straight, to make a wrong decision. If you've got time and space you can correct your bad decision, but what if you're tired and stressed literally all the time? What if you never have the time or space to not feel stressed, and in doing so are never able to step back and apply the sort of reasoning that helps you avoid mistakes? It's not about people being lazy, in this material world it's about people being constantly under pressure to earn more, spend more, provide more, live bigger, live 'better' etc etc; and if you're on your own +/or with a low wage, and you can't afford what all the media around you tell you you need, and you're working hard enough just to get by and you're worried about affording the mortgage/rent let alone bills let alone all the extraneous crap... you live in the instant and reach for any solution that is going to make that instant just a little bit easier. The idea of cooking ahead or planning your menu is born out of privilege, it's just no compatible with the stresses that low earners are under.

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Well these two things are exacerbated by a poor diet, I see no reason why people can't make beans on toast, making beans on toast takes less time than going to a drive thru.

In shocking research published today - people with mental health issues sometimes make terrible decisions!

Also, making beans on toast might be easier than a drive through (although that assumes having had the time and energy to go round a supermarket to acquire beans and bread), but JustEat is easier than both and also reinforces a self-perception of oneself as a garbage human being, which a lot of people who are stressed and ill find useful.

Puja

I think you may be conflating obesity with mental illness, these things are not mutually inclusive or exclusive, to suggest that all obese people have mental health issues is disingenuous.

The Just Eat argument is false, you can get stuff delivered by the supermarket as well can't you?

Beans are still ace.

[J Dory]

..... until we're really getting down into some very low IQ individuals.

Fat idiots.

[Mikey Brown]

..... until we're really getting down into some very low IQ individuals.

Fat idiots.

Thank you for steering this thread back on course.

[Digby]

..... until we're really getting down into some very low IQ individuals.

Fat idiots.

Talking of which if we're going to take control away from people to make their own choices the person best placed to influence the diet of the world probably is Donald Trump

[Puja]

Well these two things are exacerbated by a poor diet, I see no reason why people can't make beans on toast, making beans on toast takes less time than going to a drive thru.

In shocking research published today - people with mental health issues sometimes make terrible decisions!

Also, making beans on toast might be easier than a drive through (although that assumes having had the time and energy to go round a supermarket to acquire beans and bread), but JustEat is easier than both and also reinforces a self-perception of oneself as a garbage human being, which a lot of people who are stressed and ill find useful.

Puja

I think you may be conflating obesity with mental illness, these things are not mutually inclusive or exclusive, to suggest that all obese people have mental health issues is disingenuous.

The Just Eat argument is false, you can get stuff delivered by the supermarket as well can't you?

Beans are still ace.

I am conflating tired and stressed with mental illness and, while they also aren't mutually inclusive or exclusive, the Venn diagram lines up a lot tighter than your suggestion. Also, supermarkets deliver for tomorrow, Just Eat delivers in an hour. Not good long term planning, but again, we're talking about tired and stressed people making poor decisions.

And yes, beans are still ace.

Puja

[Numbers]

In shocking research published today - people with mental health issues sometimes make terrible decisions!

Also, making beans on toast might be easier than a drive through (although that assumes having had the time and energy to go round a supermarket to acquire beans and bread), but JustEat is easier than both and also reinforces a self-perception of oneself as a garbage human being, which a lot of people who are stressed and ill find useful.

Puja

I think you may be conflating obesity with mental illness, these things are not mutually inclusive or exclusive, to suggest that all obese people have mental health issues is disingenuous.

The Just Eat argument is false, you can get stuff delivered by the supermarket as well can't you?

Beans are still ace.

I am conflating tired and stressed with mental illness and, while they also aren't mutually inclusive or exclusive, the Venn diagram lines up a lot tighter than your suggestion. Also, supermarkets deliver for tomorrow, Just Eat delivers in an hour. Not good long term planning, but again, we're talking about tired and stressed people making poor decisions.

And yes, beans are still ace.

Puja

So, if I'm understanding this right (this may not be the case) are you conflating tiredness and stress with obesity, I would agree that it is a factor for some, I would contend that it isn't true for all.

The supermarkets do same day delivery these days, alternatively on the first order you can just buy an extra can of beans and then that will tide you over if you can only get next day delivery.

[Puja]

I think you may be conflating obesity with mental illness, these things are not mutually inclusive or exclusive, to suggest that all obese people have mental health issues is disingenuous.

The Just Eat argument is false, you can get stuff delivered by the supermarket as well can't you?

Beans are still ace.

I am conflating tired and stressed with mental illness and, while they also aren't mutually inclusive or exclusive, the Venn diagram lines up a lot tighter than your suggestion. Also, supermarkets deliver for tomorrow, Just Eat delivers in an hour. Not good long term planning, but again, we're talking about tired and stressed people making poor decisions.

And yes, beans are still ace.

Puja

So, if I'm understanding this right (this may not be the case) are you conflating tiredness and stress with obesity, I would agree that it is a factor for some, I would contend that it isn't true for all.

Wasn't that where this branch of the conversation started from?

Puja

[Donny osmond]

With the notion people can make a sandwich? If people are too lazy to bother I do start to lose interest in helping people who can't be bothered to help themselves.

Digby, mate, think back to some time when you were tired and stressed. Remember how easy it is to not be thinking straight, to make a wrong decision. If you've got time and space you can correct your bad decision, but what if you're tired and stressed literally all the time? What if you never have the time or space to not feel stressed, and in doing so are never able to step back and apply the sort of reasoning that helps you avoid mistakes? It's not about people being lazy, in this material world it's about people being constantly under pressure to earn more, spend more, provide more, live bigger, live 'better' etc etc; and if you're on your own +/or with a low wage, and you can't afford what all the media around you tell you you need, and you're working hard enough just to get by and you're worried about affording the mortgage/rent let alone bills let alone all the extraneous crap... you live in the instant and reach for any solution that is going to make that instant just a little bit easier. The idea of cooking ahead or planning your menu is born out of privilege, it's just no compatible with the stresses that low earners are under.

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So let's assume that this is correct. Does that make obesity a disease or a symptom of social conditions?

Ermmmmm

I'm going with disease although I think that might be the wrong word... medical condition? It's the body's chemistry, put it that way.

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[Stones of granite]

Digby, mate, think back to some time when you were tired and stressed. Remember how easy it is to not be thinking straight, to make a wrong decision. If you've got time and space you can correct your bad decision, but what if you're tired and stressed literally all the time? What if you never have the time or space to not feel stressed, and in doing so are never able to step back and apply the sort of reasoning that helps you avoid mistakes? It's not about people being lazy, in this material world it's about people being constantly under pressure to earn more, spend more, provide more, live bigger, live 'better' etc etc; and if you're on your own +/or with a low wage, and you can't afford what all the media around you tell you you need, and you're working hard enough just to get by and you're worried about affording the mortgage/rent let alone bills let alone all the extraneous crap... you live in the instant and reach for any solution that is going to make that instant just a little bit easier. The idea of cooking ahead or planning your menu is born out of privilege, it's just no compatible with the stresses that low earners are under.

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So let's assume that this is correct. Does that make obesity a disease or a symptom of social conditions?

Ermmmmm

I'm going with disease although I think that might be the wrong word... medical condition? It's the body's chemistry, put it that way.

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You made a long post explaining how lack of privilege causes people to be stressed resulting in poor choices, and somehow your conclusion is that it’s down to body chemistry. Forgive me for being a little confused.

I’m not arguing against obesity being classified as a disease, I’m just unconvinced, and so far I haven’t seen any arguments to convince me.

[Donny osmond]

So let's assume that this is correct. Does that make obesity a disease or a symptom of social conditions?

Ermmmmm

I'm going with disease although I think that might be the wrong word... medical condition? It's the body's chemistry, put it that way.

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You made a long post explaining how lack of privilege causes people to be stressed resulting in poor choices, and somehow your conclusion is that it’s down to body chemistry. Forgive me for being a little confused.

I’m not arguing against obesity being classified as a disease, I’m just unconvinced, and so far I haven’t seen any arguments to convince me.

Stress comes from the body releasing hormones. Chemistry, no?

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[Galfon]

Hormones/neurotransmitters etc.. - all chemistry.
Cortisol, serotonin, dopamine, adrenaline...massively complex but of primeval origins.
Ultimately, the slow,feeble fat people will be caught and eaten by the fit, fast and strong people.That's how nature sorts it out.Might take a while if the blobsworths use bombs and guns, but it will happen eventually.

[Stones of granite]

Ermmmmm

I'm going with disease although I think that might be the wrong word... medical condition? It's the body's chemistry, put it that way.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

You made a long post explaining how lack of privilege causes people to be stressed resulting in poor choices, and somehow your conclusion is that it’s down to body chemistry. Forgive me for being a little confused.

I’m not arguing against obesity being classified as a disease, I’m just unconvinced, and so far I haven’t seen any arguments to convince me.

Stress comes from the body releasing hormones. Chemistry, no?

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Ok, this is a new argument. So your position now is that obesity is caused by stress-induced hormonal changes and should therefore be classed as a disease? How is it that obesity was virtually unknown before the 1980s? Did people not get stressed back then?

[Donny osmond]

no my position is that stress causes bad decisions. one all too understandable result of those might be eating unhealthily. i can see how this could be viewed as a medical condition. i think it is better to view it as a medical condition.

[Stones of granite]

no my position is that stress causes bad decisions. one all too understandable result of those might be eating unhealthily. i can see how this could be viewed as a medical condition. i think it is better to view it as a medical condition.

Excuse the cross-posting, but you posted this in another thread.

“Medicalsation”. Well fuck me.

Pipe down pops

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5088721/

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It is an interesting document, and seems to cross over into your argument about the classification of obesity as a disease.
I personally think that forcing every societal ill-effect down the road of being treated by the NHS is a shortcut to destroying our health system.

People can and do successfully deal with their own problems of obesity without recourse to medical treatment. Actual diseases? Not so much.

[Numbers]

no my position is that stress causes bad decisions. one all too understandable result of those might be eating unhealthily. i can see how this could be viewed as a medical condition. i think it is better to view it as a medical condition.

Stress doesn't necessarily cause bad decisions at all, the large majority of us deal with stress all the time without becoming a lard arse.

Explain to me what stress a spandexed benefits blancmange down asda is going through, not enough money for chips and fags?

It is disingenuous to ascribe one line of thought to a far more complicated issue, some people will be stressed, some will be lazy fat fuckers some will fall into a myriad of other categories.

[Donny osmond]

no my position is that stress causes bad decisions. one all too understandable result of those might be eating unhealthily. i can see how this could be viewed as a medical condition. i think it is better to view it as a medical condition.

Excuse the cross-posting, but you posted this in another thread.

“Medicalsation”. Well fuck me.

Pipe down pops

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5088721/

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It is an interesting document, and seems to cross over into your argument about the classification of obesity as a disease.
I personally think that forcing every societal ill-effect down the road of being treated by the NHS is a shortcut to destroying our health system.

People can and do successfully deal with their own problems of obesity without recourse to medical treatment. Actual diseases? Not so much.

I posted that link for other reasons, however you make a fair point. Obese people can deal with their own problems by stopping eating so much, in the same way that drug addicts can deal with their problems by stopping taking drugs, or gambling addicts can deal with their problems by stopping gambling. Being addicted to eating is a real phenomenon and theres a body of opinion, often found among doctors and social workers, that says addiction is better treated as a medical condition rather than as a behavioural one. Its one I agree with, having been thru the mill with prescription pain killers myself. Ironically I came off painkillers without medical help, but I was lucky and it gave me a small insight into the problems people may have with addictions.

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[Donny osmond]

no my position is that stress causes bad decisions. one all too understandable result of those might be eating unhealthily. i can see how this could be viewed as a medical condition. i think it is better to view it as a medical condition.

Stress doesn't necessarily cause bad decisions at all, the large majority of us deal with stress all the time without becoming a lard arse.

Explain to me what stress a spandexed benefits blancmange down asda is going through, not enough money for chips and fags?

It is disingenuous to ascribe one line of thought to a far more complicated issue, some people will be stressed, some will be lazy fat fuckers some will fall into a myriad of other categories.

I wouldnt like to speak for all the be-spandexed benefits blancmanges out there, but you're right that is more complex and I dont mean to be disingenuous... ultimately everyone has responsibility for their actions.

Maybe I'm just saying a little more understanding and a little less condemnation might help?

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[Mellsblue]

no my position is that stress causes bad decisions. one all too understandable result of those might be eating unhealthily. i can see how this could be viewed as a medical condition. i think it is better to view it as a medical condition.

Stress doesn't necessarily cause bad decisions at all, the large majority of us deal with stress all the time without becoming a lard arse.

Explain to me what stress a spandexed benefits blancmange down asda is going through, not enough money for chips and fags?

It is disingenuous to ascribe one line of thought to a far more complicated issue, some people will be stressed, some will be lazy fat fuckers some will fall into a myriad of other categories.

I wouldnt like to speak for all the be-spandexed benefits blancmanges out there, but you're right that is more complex and I dont mean to be disingenuous... ultimately everyone has responsibility for their actions.

Maybe I'm just saying a little more understanding and a little less condemnation might help?

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Ridicule the fat fuckers till they change their diet and lifestyle. It worked on a prop I went to school with so I know it’s proven to work.

[Stom]

no my position is that stress causes bad decisions. one all too understandable result of those might be eating unhealthily. i can see how this could be viewed as a medical condition. i think it is better to view it as a medical condition.

Stress doesn't necessarily cause bad decisions at all, the large majority of us deal with stress all the time without becoming a lard arse.

Explain to me what stress a spandexed benefits blancmange down asda is going through, not enough money for chips and fags?

It is disingenuous to ascribe one line of thought to a far more complicated issue, some people will be stressed, some will be lazy fat fuckers some will fall into a myriad of other categories.

I wouldnt like to speak for all the be-spandexed benefits blancmanges out there, but you're right that is more complex and I dont mean to be disingenuous... ultimately everyone has responsibility for their actions.

Maybe I'm just saying a little more understanding and a little less condemnation might help?

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Just like people in transition...

Or maybe not.

The obesity crisis is one of hope. Or rather a lack thereof. People who are hopeful for the future want to experience it to the fullest do don't fall down that black hole.

[Which Tyler]

Ridicule the fat fuckers till they change their diet and lifestyle. It worked on a prop I went to school with so I know it’s proven to work.

I know you're kidding but...
Actual research shows that fat shaming tends to have the opposite affect

[Stom]

Ridicule the fat fuckers till they change their diet and lifestyle. It worked on a prop I went to school with so I know it’s proven to work.

I know you're kidding but...
Actual research shows that fat shaming tends to have the opposite affect

We shouldn't be fat accepting, either.

It's a societal problem. And it's not even a real societal disease, it's more a symptom.

If we want to "solve" the obesity crisis, we need to make major changes to the world we live in, starting by cleansing ourselves of this neo-capitalist utopia Western politicians like to push onto us.

And return to the roots of capitalism to find a more social and human form of economic policy.

[Donny osmond]

Stress doesn't necessarily cause bad decisions at all, the large majority of us deal with stress all the time without becoming a lard arse.

Explain to me what stress a spandexed benefits blancmange down asda is going through, not enough money for chips and fags?

It is disingenuous to ascribe one line of thought to a far more complicated issue, some people will be stressed, some will be lazy fat fuckers some will fall into a myriad of other categories.

I wouldnt like to speak for all the be-spandexed benefits blancmanges out there, but you're right that is more complex and I dont mean to be disingenuous... ultimately everyone has responsibility for their actions.

Maybe I'm just saying a little more understanding and a little less condemnation might help?

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Ridicule the fat fuckers till they change their diet and lifestyle. It worked on a prop I went to school with so I know it’s proven to work.

What position did you play Mells?

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[Which Tyler]

We shouldn't be fat accepting, either.

It's a societal problem. And it's not even a real societal disease, it's more a symptom.

If we want to "solve" the obesity crisis, we need to make major changes to the world we live in, starting by cleansing ourselves of this neo-capitalist utopia Western politicians like to push onto us.

And return to the roots of capitalism to find a more social and human form of economic policy.

Barring some primary causes, it seems like a classic example of dysevolution. We eat way too much highly processed foods - because it's easy, and often cheap, whilst we have an ever increasing idea of what "a portion" looks like, especially for those highly processed foods.
This makes a difference, in terms of sheer calories consumed, in terms of ease of absorption and spikes of hyperglycaemia, and in terms of our gut micro-biome.
Combine that with an ever more sedentary lifestyle and ever increasing exposure to toxins (alcohol, antibiotics in meat, hormones in the water system etc etc) ever increasing stress levels, ever decreasing sleep quantity and quality.

It's just a perfect storm for these epidemics of non-communicable diseases were seeing. Obesity, Diabetes, back pain, food allergies, autism etc et

It can be overcome with willpower, but that's tough. Really tough. Especially when you introduce an element of addiction, and an element of depression, and an element of coping mechanism, an element of social conditoning and...

[Mellsblue]

Ridicule the fat fuckers till they change their diet and lifestyle. It worked on a prop I went to school with so I know it’s proven to work.

I know you're kidding but...
Actual research shows that fat shaming tends to have the opposite affect

We shouldn't be fat accepting, either.

This. It’s not good for the individual and it’s bad for the public purse.
If ridicule and making people cry has been poo pooed (bloody snowflakes) then a nice public information service about how many nurses and/or research scientists we could employ or how many MRI machines the NHS could buy if we eradicated Type II Diabetes and the £billions we spend on it would be good. Really ram it down their throats, if there’s time between the cakes.

I also agree that the argument that we shouldn’t regulate markets, eg sugar tax, and it’s up to people whether they decide to slowly kill themselves is balls. The state has an obligation to look after people and the public purse.

[Mellsblue]

We shouldn't be fat accepting, either.

It's a societal problem. And it's not even a real societal disease, it's more a symptom.

If we want to "solve" the obesity crisis, we need to make major changes to the world we live in, starting by cleansing ourselves of this neo-capitalist utopia Western politicians like to push onto us.

And return to the roots of capitalism to find a more social and human form of economic policy.

Barring some primary causes, it seems like a classic example of dysevolution. We eat way too much highly processed foods - because it's easy, and often cheap, whilst we have an ever increasing idea of what "a portion" looks like, especially for those highly processed foods.
This makes a difference, in terms of sheer calories consumed, in terms of ease of absorption and spikes of hyperglycaemia, and in terms of our gut micro-biome.
Combine that with an ever more sedentary lifestyle and ever increasing exposure to toxins (alcohol, antibiotics in meat, hormones in the water system etc etc) ever increasing stress levels, ever decreasing sleep quantity and quality.

It's just a perfect storm for these epidemics of non-communicable diseases were seeing. Obesity, Diabetes, back pain, food allergies, autism etc et

It can be overcome with willpower, but that's tough. Really tough. Especially when you introduce an element of addiction, and an element of depression, and an element of coping mechanism, an element of social conditoning and...

I remember reading a few years ago about how much sugar there is in a bowl of cereal compared to the 80’s......cereals are banned from our house. I don’t know why we’ve allowed our food stock to deteriorate so badly and continue to do so, other than few sticking plasters. I know I’m a Tory c**t and most of you lot would never kiss me but one of the state’s central obligations is to keep us safe and healthy. Add that to efficiency of the public purse and they really dropped the (dough) ball on this one.