Terf me out...

[Digby]

It'd clearly be helpful if it grew up and grew a pair

[Mikey Brown]

Finally, some constructive debate in here.

[morepork]

"He wants to play with dolls so we have to call him a girl because boys don't play with dolls!!"

God forbid we can accept people for who they are. This kid wanted to be themselves but has been forced into a box by adults, apparently because he didnt fit in another adult defined box, and is in real danger of lifelong psychological issues, not to mention the physical health issues that are right around the corner, and the reaction is awww that's nice? The insanity of trans ideology in a nutshell.

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Or alternatively, "He said he was a girl and wanted to be a girl, but we have to call him a boy because I'm set in my ways and know everything."

God forbid that we can accept people for who they are.

Puja

You're a tiger for punishment Puja. I'll give you that.

[Digby]

"He wants to play with dolls so we have to call him a girl because boys don't play with dolls!!"

God forbid we can accept people for who they are. This kid wanted to be themselves but has been forced into a box by adults, apparently because he didnt fit in another adult defined box, and is in real danger of lifelong psychological issues, not to mention the physical health issues that are right around the corner, and the reaction is awww that's nice? The insanity of trans ideology in a nutshell.

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Or alternatively, "He said he was a girl and wanted to be a girl, but we have to call him a boy because I'm set in my ways and know everything."

God forbid that we can accept people for who they are.

Puja

You're a tiger for punishment Puja. I'll give you that.

I wondered about the god reference too, though whether Puja is quite Opus Dei I don't know

[Donny osmond]

"He wants to play with dolls so we have to call him a girl because boys don't play with dolls!!"

God forbid we can accept people for who they are. This kid wanted to be themselves but has been forced into a box by adults, apparently because he didnt fit in another adult defined box, and is in real danger of lifelong psychological issues, not to mention the physical health issues that are right around the corner, and the reaction is awww that's nice? The insanity of trans ideology in a nutshell.

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Or alternatively, "He said he was a girl and wanted to be a girl, but we have to call him a boy because I'm set in my ways and know everything."

God forbid that we can accept people for who they are.

Puja

No you're right of course, we have to shoe horn him into a box labelled girl because we're so desperate to be wokebros that we can't simply let him be a boy who wears dresses and plays with dolls, no lets ignore reality and encourage him down a lifelong path of painful and intrusive medication rather than simply acknowledge he is what he is.

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[Son of Mathonwy]

"He wants to play with dolls so we have to call him a girl because boys don't play with dolls!!"

God forbid we can accept people for who they are. This kid wanted to be themselves but has been forced into a box by adults, apparently because he didnt fit in another adult defined box, and is in real danger of lifelong psychological issues, not to mention the physical health issues that are right around the corner, and the reaction is awww that's nice? The insanity of trans ideology in a nutshell.

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Or alternatively, "He said he was a girl and wanted to be a girl, but we have to call him a boy because I'm set in my ways and know everything."

God forbid that we can accept people for who they are.

Puja

No you're right of course, we have to shoe horn him into a box labelled girl because we're so desperate to be wokebros that we can't simply let him be a boy who wears dresses and plays with dolls, no lets ignore reality and encourage him down a lifelong path of painful and intrusive medication rather than simply acknowledge he is what he is.

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It looks perfectly reasonable to me. According to the article the child wanted to be a girl, not a boy who wore dresses.

Why would a parent encourage a more extreme change in their child than necessary? If it happened to me, I would certainly find it easier to accept that my children were merely cross-dressers than that they wanted to actually change gender.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Or alternatively, "He said he was a girl and wanted to be a girl, but we have to call him a boy because I'm set in my ways and know everything."

God forbid that we can accept people for who they are.

Puja

No you're right of course, we have to shoe horn him into a box labelled girl because we're so desperate to be wokebros that we can't simply let him be a boy who wears dresses and plays with dolls, no lets ignore reality and encourage him down a lifelong path of painful and intrusive medication rather than simply acknowledge he is what he is.

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It looks perfectly reasonable to me. According to the article the child wanted to be a girl, not a boy who wore dresses.

Why would a parent encourage a more extreme change in their child than necessary? If it happened to me, I would certainly find it easier to accept that my children were merely cross-dressers than that they wanted to actually change gender.

I spend too much of my working life seeing the horrific things that parents do to their children to still ask the question why. Sometimes they don't even mean to. Sometimes they just involve children in their adult conversations. Enough saying "men are terrible" and strangely junior doesn't want to be a man.

What's the worst that can happen? Well in this particular case a child can feel pressured into continue the path that their parent has taken them; will feel like the pride and positive reinforcement that their parent has given them will dissappear; will see that the by has made sure that there's a permanent record of a "decision" made when they were 3 by going to the papers.

Anyway if someone can tell me what the difference between a 4 year old boy and girl is, let alone explain how a 4 year old could hope to understand then articulate it, then my concern might be gone. In the meantime, have a read:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1175 ... 96672.html

[Son of Mathonwy]

No you're right of course, we have to shoe horn him into a box labelled girl because we're so desperate to be wokebros that we can't simply let him be a boy who wears dresses and plays with dolls, no lets ignore reality and encourage him down a lifelong path of painful and intrusive medication rather than simply acknowledge he is what he is.

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It looks perfectly reasonable to me. According to the article the child wanted to be a girl, not a boy who wore dresses.

Why would a parent encourage a more extreme change in their child than necessary? If it happened to me, I would certainly find it easier to accept that my children were merely cross-dressers than that they wanted to actually change gender.

I spend too much of my working life seeing the horrific things that parents do to their children to still ask the question why. Sometimes they don't even mean to. Sometimes they just involve children in their adult conversations. Enough saying "men are terrible" and strangely junior doesn't want to be a man.

What's the worst that can happen? Well in this particular case a child can feel pressured into continue the path that their parent has taken them; will feel like the pride and positive reinforcement that their parent has given them will dissappear; will see that the by has made sure that there's a permanent record of a "decision" made when they were 3 by going to the papers.

Anyway if someone can tell me what the difference between a 4 year old boy and girl is, let alone explain how a 4 year old could hope to understand then articulate it, then my concern might be gone. In the meantime, have a read:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1175 ... 96672.html

Of course, the parents must give the child the options (they must clearly understand that being a boy/girl, having a boyfriend/girlfriend and dressing like a boy/girl are all different things) and try not to push them one way. And a provisional "path" taken by a child must not be taken to be the definite direction taken when entering puberty. But ultimately, if a child entering puberty is adamant that they want to be the opposite gender (and not merely that they like the clothes etc), then taking puberty delaying drugs for a few years while their ideas possibly become more clear seems reasonable.

I have a son and a daughter. Let alone 4, at 2 years old they were radically different (their interests are much as you'd expect for boys and girls) without any encouragement (in fact my daughter grew up surrounded by boys' toys - it did not affect her!).

[morepork]

No you're right of course, we have to shoe horn him into a box labelled girl because we're so desperate to be wokebros that we can't simply let him be a boy who wears dresses and plays with dolls, no lets ignore reality and encourage him down a lifelong path of painful and intrusive medication rather than simply acknowledge he is what he is.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

It looks perfectly reasonable to me. According to the article the child wanted to be a girl, not a boy who wore dresses.

Why would a parent encourage a more extreme change in their child than necessary? If it happened to me, I would certainly find it easier to accept that my children were merely cross-dressers than that they wanted to actually change gender.

I spend too much of my working life seeing the horrific things that parents do to their children to still ask the question why. Sometimes they don't even mean to. Sometimes they just involve children in their adult conversations. Enough saying "men are terrible" and strangely junior doesn't want to be a man.

What's the worst that can happen? Well in this particular case a child can feel pressured into continue the path that their parent has taken them; will feel like the pride and positive reinforcement that their parent has given them will dissappear; will see that the by has made sure that there's a permanent record of a "decision" made when they were 3 by going to the papers.

Anyway if someone can tell me what the difference between a 4 year old boy and girl is, let alone explain how a 4 year old could hope to understand then articulate it, then my concern might be gone. In the meantime, have a read:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1175 ... 96672.html

I'm still curious as to how a board-qualified team of surgeons psychiatrists, neurologists, pediatricians, and endocinologists would give in to the whim of a parent over the welfare of a child. Is this really a prevalent phenomenon? If you, someone needs a fucking word with you health regulatory bodies. Links to the mirror don't exactly add clarity.

[Donny osmond]

No-one is born in the wrong body... authored by an endocrinologist from NYU and an evolutionary biologist from Penn State.

https://quillette.com/2019/09/24/no-one ... rong-body/

In most cases, the thing that is now called “gender identity” likely is simply an individual’s perception of how their own sex-related and environmentally influenced personality compares to same and opposite sexed people. Put another way, it’s a self-assessment of one’s stereotypical degree of “masculinity” or “femininity,” and it’s wrongly being conflated with biological sex. This conflation stems from a cultural failure to understand the broad distribution of personalities and preferences within sexes and the overlap between sexes.

When a girl reports that she “feels like a boy” or “is a boy,” that sentiment may reflect her perception of how her personality and preferences compare to the rest of her peers.

...

Historical data suggests that about 0.5% of children develop gender dysphoria—distress caused by a perceived incongruence between one’s biological sex and gender presentation. Reinforcing studies in the medical literature show that, as children get older, childhood-onset gender dysphoria resolves (i.e. ends) in most cases. As two authors put it in a 2016 International Review of Psychiatry article, “the conclusion from these studies is that childhood GD [gender dysphoria] is strongly associated with a lesbian, gay or bisexual outcome and that for the majority of the children (85.2%; 270 out of 317 [studied individuals]) the gender dysphoric feelings remitted around or after puberty.”

[morepork]

Fantastic, another blog.

The NIH recognises the condition, and it is in fact a diagnosis with some identified developmental abnormalities as the cause in many cases. Prenatal hormone exposure has a massive influence on gender behavioral traits. It is not a mental illness.


I can recommend contributions to this issue by recently deceased trans neuroscientists Ben Barres. A shit kicker in the neurosciences and a fearless advocate for gender equality.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07109-2


Some pretty hefty minds have done a lot of research on the neurodevelopmental correlates of gender identity and can explain it better than I:

https://charlierose.com/collections/3/clip/21056

[Donny osmond]

These are the references for that blog post:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... ijop.12529

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... jopy.12500

[morepork]

These are the references for that blog post:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... ijop.12529

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... jopy.12500

So environments that discriminate against individual genders are less likely to see individuals freely expressing gender-distinct personality traits? Hardly a revelation. I hope they got fuck all funding for that.

[Donny osmond]

And if we're talking about shit-kickers who have a view on this, https://projectnettie.wordpress.com/ is a link to a list of names who have signed up to the idea that biological sex is not a spectrum and that "Attempts to recast biological sex as a social construct, which then becomes a matter of chosen individual identity, are wholly ideological, scientifically inaccurate and socially irresponsible."

Some notable signatories include:

David Curtis. MBChB and PhD Genetics, University of Cambridge, Professor of Genetics at University College London, UK.

Giedre Grigelioniene. MD, PhD. Consultant in Clinical Genetics and Pediatrics, Karolinska University Hospital, Sweden.

Carsten Grötzinger. PhD Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Humboldt University, Germany.

Antonia Hamilton. BSc Psychology, University of Oxford, UK; PhD Neuroscience, University College London, UK. Professor of Neuroscience, University College London, UK.

Heather E. Heying. PhD Evolutionary Biology, University of Michigan, US. Professor, visiting Fellow at Princeton University

Among many others. This is a broad consensus from a multitude of highly knowledgeable experts in their fields.

[morepork]

That my friend is a list in support of a predetermined agenda and not an objective presentation of empirical information. If I can make a female rat act like a male rat following perinatal exposure to specific hormones, then there is a developmental mechanism for gender dysmorphia.


I'll stick with the Nobel laureates thanks.

[cashead]

No-one is born in the wrong body... authored by an endocrinologist from NYU and an evolutionary biologist from Penn State.

https://quillette

And here's where I'd recommend people stop reading. Quillette? Really? Those chucklefucks? "Banning nazis is an attack on conservatism" Quillette?

[Donny osmond]

Well I guess 2019 just slapped RR on the ass.

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[Digby]

No-one is born in the wrong body... authored by an endocrinologist from NYU and an evolutionary biologist from Penn State.

https://quillette

And here's where I'd recommend people stop reading. Quillette? Really? Those chucklefucks? "Banning nazis is an attack on conservatism" Quillette?

Quilette, the best a man, woman or unidentified can get?

[Mikey Brown]

I understand how you could make the case some people are just misled by not adhering to gender stereotypes, rather than actually being born in the wrong body. But people stating this as if it applies to a majority of cases, let alone all of them, is just totally retarded.

[cashead]

I understand how you could make the case some people are just misled by not adhering to gender stereotypes, rather than actually being born in the wrong body. But people stating this as if it applies to a majority of cases, let alone all of them, is just totally retarded.

Not your call to make.

[Mikey Brown]

I’m not sure if you’re just desperate to find something or someone to disagree with, or you simply didn’t read that properly.

I never suggested any of it was “my call”.

I’m saying there may be cases where it’s more ‘I don’t feel I fit the societal expectations of gender x’ rather than ‘I want to live my life as gender y’. But finding specific scenarios on either end of the spectrum and rigidly applying it to all cases (“no-one is born in the wrong body”) is not going to help anybody. That’s not a contentious statement.

[Donny osmond]

I’m not sure if you’re just desperate to find something or someone to disagree with, or you simply didn’t read that properly.

I never suggested any of it was “my call”.

I’m saying there may be cases where it’s more ‘I don’t feel I fit the societal expectations of gender x’ rather than ‘I want to live my life as gender y’. But finding specific scenarios on either end of the spectrum and rigidly applying it to all cases (“no-one is born in the wrong body”) is not going to help anybody. That’s not a contentious statement.

The reason the guys who wrote that article are so adamant is because they perceive a certain lackadaisical approach to medicalising kids who are encouraged to believe they're in the wrong body. When an Oxford professor of Evidence Based Medicine says, about puberty blockers and gender affirming cross sex hormone, that the current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children... it is perhaps understandable that medics on the front line of treatment would take a stand.



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[cashead]

I’m not sure if you’re just desperate to find something or someone to disagree with, or you simply didn’t read that properly.

I never suggested any of it was “my call”.

I’m saying there may be cases where it’s more ‘I don’t feel I fit the societal expectations of gender x’ rather than ‘I want to live my life as gender y’. But finding specific scenarios on either end of the spectrum and rigidly applying it to all cases (“no-one is born in the wrong body”) is not going to help anybody. That’s not a contentious statement.

Fair enough. It has been a long term.

The reason the guys who wrote that article are so adamant is because they perceive a certain lackadaisical approach to medicalising kids who are encouraged to believe they're in the wrong body. When an Oxford professor of Evidence Based Medicine says, about puberty blockers and gender affirming cross sex hormone, that the current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children... it is perhaps understandable that medics on the front line of treatment would take a stand.



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Not their call to make (there, that's better). If you honestly think transitioning is something that's done on a whim, I've got some real estate to sell you. And I sure as sugar will not be taking anything published in a rag like Quillette without an ocean's worth of grains of salt.

Some chucklefuck without any knowledge of the individuals and their lived experiences does not get to make that decision for them; I don't care how many letters they have after their names.

[morepork]

“Medicalsation”. Well fuck me.

[Donny osmond]

I’m not sure if you’re just desperate to find something or someone to disagree with, or you simply didn’t read that properly.

I never suggested any of it was “my call”.

I’m saying there may be cases where it’s more ‘I don’t feel I fit the societal expectations of gender x’ rather than ‘I want to live my life as gender y’. But finding specific scenarios on either end of the spectrum and rigidly applying it to all cases (“no-one is born in the wrong body”) is not going to help anybody. That’s not a contentious statement.

Fair enough. It has been a long term.

The reason the guys who wrote that article are so adamant is because they perceive a certain lackadaisical approach to medicalising kids who are encouraged to believe they're in the wrong body. When an Oxford professor of Evidence Based Medicine says, about puberty blockers and gender affirming cross sex hormone, that the current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children... it is perhaps understandable that medics on the front line of treatment would take a stand.



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Not their call to make (there, that's better). If you honestly think transitioning is something that's done on a whim, I've got some real estate to sell you. And I sure as sugar will not be taking anything published in a rag like Quillette without an ocean's worth of grains of salt.

Some chucklefuck without any knowledge of the individuals and their lived experiences does not get to make that decision for them; I don't care how many letters they have after their names.

I'm not suggesting its done on a whim, I'm saying I think its been done with the best of intentions but that desire to help has blinded us to the absence of evidence.

A Professor of Evidence Based Medicine isnt "some chucklefuck", and the fact that someone who knows these kids and their lived experience is so dismissive of the concerns of experienced and knowledgeable experts reflects exactly the problem with this whole discussion.

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