Snap General Election called

[Digby]

Nancy Astor was the first female to sit in the Commons so her having a statue or two seems eminently reasonable.

I've never heard anyone say Corbyn was a terrorist sympathiser just because he wanted dialogue. Typically people call him a sympathiser because he sympathises with their aims as enemies of Imperial Britain, and whilst a good number might have issue with the idea of empire building any attack on Imperial Britain tends to be also an attack on Britain, and without too much surprise people don't like that

[Banquo]

What can Labour give away next? Its certainly working as a strategy!

[Zhivago]

Nancy Astor was the first female to sit in the Commons so her having a statue or two seems eminently reasonable.

I've never heard anyone say Corbyn was a terrorist sympathiser just because he wanted dialogue. Typically people call him a sympathiser because he sympathises with their aims as enemies of Imperial Britain, and whilst a good number might have issue with the idea of empire building any attack on Imperial Britain tends to be also an attack on Britain, and without too much surprise people don't like that

Would rather celebrate Markievicz who was the first woman MP. Especially given Astor's virulent antisemitism.

[Digby]

Nancy Astor was the first female to sit in the Commons so her having a statue or two seems eminently reasonable.

I've never heard anyone say Corbyn was a terrorist sympathiser just because he wanted dialogue. Typically people call him a sympathiser because he sympathises with their aims as enemies of Imperial Britain, and whilst a good number might have issue with the idea of empire building any attack on Imperial Britain tends to be also an attack on Britain, and without too much surprise people don't like that

Would rather celebrate Markievicz who was the first woman MP. Especially given Astor's virulent antisemitism.

I'm cautious about using the word celebrate, but I don't think you have to celebrate someone to erect a statue. Both Markievicz and Astor would have those who would stand aghast at some of their practices, but both were the first in their way, and that does attract notice, give 'em both statues seems an easy out

[Sandydragon]

Nancy Astor was the first female to sit in the Commons so her having a statue or two seems eminently reasonable.

I've never heard anyone say Corbyn was a terrorist sympathiser just because he wanted dialogue. Typically people call him a sympathiser because he sympathises with their aims as enemies of Imperial Britain, and whilst a good number might have issue with the idea of empire building any attack on Imperial Britain tends to be also an attack on Britain, and without too much surprise people don't like that

Encouraging dialogue amongst opposing factions is admirable. Choosing whom to have dialogue with is difficult and picking extremists on one side exclusively buggers up your objective and leads to very reasonable accusations of supporting terrorism.

[Sandydragon]

Nancy Astor was the first female to sit in the Commons so her having a statue or two seems eminently reasonable.

I've never heard anyone say Corbyn was a terrorist sympathiser just because he wanted dialogue. Typically people call him a sympathiser because he sympathises with their aims as enemies of Imperial Britain, and whilst a good number might have issue with the idea of empire building any attack on Imperial Britain tends to be also an attack on Britain, and without too much surprise people don't like that

Would rather celebrate Markievicz who was the first woman MP. Especially given Astor's virulent antisemitism.

I'm cautious about using the word celebrate, but I don't think you have to celebrate someone to erect a statue. Both Markievicz and Astor would have those who would stand aghast at some of their practices, but both were the first in their way, and that does attract notice, give 'em both statues seems an easy out

And how far do we allow politics of today affect our recognition of the past?

I’m not sure about the Astor monument either for the record but I prefer to view historical figures in the context of their time. At that time Britain was far more anti-Semitic than it is today (and racist in general).

[Son of Mathonwy]

Would rather celebrate Markievicz who was the first woman MP. Especially given Astor's virulent antisemitism.

I'm cautious about using the word celebrate, but I don't think you have to celebrate someone to erect a statue. Both Markievicz and Astor would have those who would stand aghast at some of their practices, but both were the first in their way, and that does attract notice, give 'em both statues seems an easy out

And how far do we allow politics of today affect our recognition of the past?

I’m not sure about the Astor monument either for the record but I prefer to view historical figures in the context of their time. At that time Britain was far more anti-Semitic than it is today (and racist in general).

I love this alleged exchange:

Lady Astor said to Churchill, "If you were my husband, I'd poison your tea," to which he responded, "Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."

Very tough to know who to erect statues to. But as Markievicz was actually the first female MP, I think this really qualifies her better (purely in terms of achievement as a woman). This feels a bit like the fuss over Tim Peake, who I imagine most random people would say was the first Brit in space.....

[Digby]

I'm cautious about using the word celebrate, but I don't think you have to celebrate someone to erect a statue. Both Markievicz and Astor would have those who would stand aghast at some of their practices, but both were the first in their way, and that does attract notice, give 'em both statues seems an easy out

And how far do we allow politics of today affect our recognition of the past?

I’m not sure about the Astor monument either for the record but I prefer to view historical figures in the context of their time. At that time Britain was far more anti-Semitic than it is today (and racist in general).

I love this alleged exchange:

Lady Astor said to Churchill, "If you were my husband, I'd poison your tea," to which he responded, "Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."

Very tough to know who to erect statues to. But as Markievicz was actually the first female MP, I think this really qualifies her better (purely in terms of achievement as a woman). This feels a bit like the fuss over Tim Peake, who I imagine most random people would say was the first Brit in space.....

Again just do both and you remove the need for an argument.

Because there is the obvious problem with Markievicz that she's akin to the first person who swam the Channel, only she refused to go into the water. Certainly she was the first women who won a constituency election, but by dint of refusing to actually serve she wasn't in many ways that count the first female MP, because she wasn't an MP.

Mind I don't get why statues must be perceived as having only positive inferences in a current social environment, our history is our history, they both have significant stories, build the statues and encourage discussion on their stories that allow for coverage of the good and the bad.

[Which Tyler]

Well, at least no-one ever accused Pasty Cockwomble of having any morality, or love of accountability: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-21024829

Boris Johnson abruptly ends press conference after being questioned about NHS
It came just minutes after the Donald Trump cancelled his press conference - as the row over NHS drug prices escalated

Boris Johnson abruptly shut down a press conference after being asked if he had spoken to Donald Trump about ruling the NHS out of a future US/UK trade deal.

Asked by the Independent if he had made it "crystal clear" to Donald Trump that "neither the NHS or pharmaceuticals" should be part of future trade negotiations, the PM threw a bit of a huff and said he wouldn't answer any more questions.

Article Continues...

I'm sorry, but we've reached the stage where any vote for the conservatives is a vote in favour of moral bankruptcy and against the interests of 99.9% of the country

[Mellsblue]

Given the above and Jewish Labour Movement’s submission to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, it looks we’re all going to have to vote Lib Dem.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Given the above and Jewish Labour Movement’s submission to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, it looks we’re all going to have to vote Lib Dem.

Only if you think a problem with a tiny minority of Labour members - which is being rooted out - is comparable with the Tory party's (implicit) policy on the NHS.

[Sandydragon]

A minority of the Labour Party membership which are far too close to its current leader who has done very little to root it out, at least according to the 50+ Labour whistleblowers who have submitted evidence.

The leadership of neither party is fit to govern. Sadly a got for the Lib Dem’s is seen as a wasted vote, although that’s who I will be voting for.

[Sandydragon]

I'm cautious about using the word celebrate, but I don't think you have to celebrate someone to erect a statue. Both Markievicz and Astor would have those who would stand aghast at some of their practices, but both were the first in their way, and that does attract notice, give 'em both statues seems an easy out

And how far do we allow politics of today affect our recognition of the past?

I’m not sure about the Astor monument either for the record but I prefer to view historical figures in the context of their time. At that time Britain was far more anti-Semitic than it is today (and racist in general).

I love this alleged exchange:

Lady Astor said to Churchill, "If you were my husband, I'd poison your tea," to which he responded, "Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."

Very tough to know who to erect statues to. But as Markievicz was actually the first female MP, I think this really qualifies her better (purely in terms of achievement as a woman). This feels a bit like the fuss over Tim Peake, who I imagine most random people would say was the first Brit in space.....

That had always made me chuckle.

[Mellsblue]

Given the above and Jewish Labour Movement’s submission to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, it looks we’re all going to have to vote Lib Dem.

Only if you think a problem with a tiny minority of Labour members - which is being rooted out - is comparable with the Tory party's (implicit) policy on the NHS.

The Foreward suggests it a little more serious than that:

[Son of Mathonwy]

Given the above and Jewish Labour Movement’s submission to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, it looks we’re all going to have to vote Lib Dem.

Only if you think a problem with a tiny minority of Labour members - which is being rooted out - is comparable with the Tory party's (implicit) policy on the NHS.

The Foreward suggests it a little more serious than that:

That's the view of the JLM. We'll see what the view of the commission is.

To be honest, the idea that a long time campaigner for minority rights would persecute a minority group in the UK seems ridiculous to me. Show me the evidence of anti-jewish thought in Corbyn's words. Whereas we have all seen the racist, homophobic, and anti-islamic thought in Johnson's words. There's no comparison for me.

Okay. There's apparently less of a problem with the Lib Dems. But that's a different point. They're not going to form a government. They are not an option (except from a tactical voting perspective). The only serious decision is whether you want a Johnson government or a Corbyn one (and then a sub-decision based in tactical voting in your constituency).

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. Even the Lib Dems seem to have accepted they appeal to absolutely nobody except in the case of preventing a close labour/conservative seat.

Jo Swinson is a fucking scumbag.

[Digby]

Jo Swinson is a fucking scumbag.

Now that's just odd, and unpleasant. I don't for instance think Angela Rayner is a fucking scumbag, I just think I don't agree with her on lots of policy issues.

[Puja]

Jo Swinson is a fucking scumbag.

Now that's just odd, and unpleasant. I don't for instance think Angela Rayner is a fucking scumbag, I just think I don't agree with her on lots of policy issues.

While I'm not endorsing the epithet, Rayner has significantly less history of lying through her teeth or of abandoning her previously stated "firmly-held" positions.

Puja

[Digby]

Jo Swinson is a fucking scumbag.

Now that's just odd, and unpleasant. I don't for instance think Angela Rayner is a fucking scumbag, I just think I don't agree with her on lots of policy issues.

While I'm not endorsing the epithet, Rayner has significantly less history of lying through her teeth or of abandoning her previously stated "firmly-held" positions.

Puja

“I've said once, and I will say it again, we have no plans to write off existing student debt and we never promised to do so.” - Rayner

Although she does have some difficulty there given previous ill-informed comments from Corbyn and McDonnell, who when they said Labour would deal with this didn't really mean anything in particular. And that's not to even especially criticise Rayner, it's almost unavoidable these things will happen in a career, but I suspect it's one of the issues being tagged on Swinson

[Puja]

Now that's just odd, and unpleasant. I don't for instance think Angela Rayner is a fucking scumbag, I just think I don't agree with her on lots of policy issues.

While I'm not endorsing the epithet, Rayner has significantly less history of lying through her teeth or of abandoning her previously stated "firmly-held" positions.

Puja

“I've said once, and I will say it again, we have no plans to write off existing student debt and we never promised to do so.” - Rayner

Although she does have some difficulty there given previous ill-informed comments from Corbyn and McDonnell, who when they said Labour would deal with this didn't really mean anything in particular. And that's not to even especially criticise Rayner, it's almost unavoidable these things will happen in a career, but I suspect it's one of the issues being tagged on Swinson

She wasn't lying though - all Corbyn ever said on existing student debt at the last election was answering a question of "What do you plan to do about existing debt if you're planning on getting rid of new stuff?" with "Well, that's not part of our manifesto, but we'd look at that in the future. I'm sure we'd do something with it - we would deal with it." The Conservatives then took that equivocation and deflection as a definite promise to cancel all existing fees immediately and then berated Labour for not keeping a promise they had never made.

Rayner seems like a very weird choice for a comparator, as she seems about as close to an honest politician as we are likely to get.

Swinson, on the other hand, voted for an EU referendum in 2008 that she said was "unforgiveable" for Cameron to promise in 2010, has voted consistently for benefit cuts, austerity, and corporation tax cuts and now rails against those things that she made happen, and has led a phenomenally disingenuous and mendacious campaign this election, relying on pamphlets that are packed full of bare-faced lies.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

The vast majority of MPs are disingenuous. This campaign has already plumbed their depths of the referendum with its lies, low quality debate and general bs. Sadly, politicians know that the vast majority of people will not look beyond headlines so only need pump out lies and half truths and most will lap them up.

[Mikey Brown]

Swinson, on the other hand, voted for an EU referendum in 2008 that she said was "unforgiveable" for Cameron to promise in 2010, has voted consistently for benefit cuts, austerity, and corporation tax cuts and now rails against those things that she made happen, and has led a phenomenally disingenuous and mendacious campaign this election, relying on pamphlets that are packed full of bare-faced lies.

Puja

There we go. Don’t know if that qualifies for “fucking scumbag” or not but who cares. Why would anyone believe for a second she will try and put in to action what she has claimed?

Wasn’t she behind every single LD recently abstaining over the US/NHS trade talks too? She’ll swing whichever it looks like there is an opportunity, she’s not unique in that, but still.

[Digby]

While I'm not endorsing the epithet, Rayner has significantly less history of lying through her teeth or of abandoning her previously stated "firmly-held" positions.

Puja

“I've said once, and I will say it again, we have no plans to write off existing student debt and we never promised to do so.” - Rayner

Although she does have some difficulty there given previous ill-informed comments from Corbyn and McDonnell, who when they said Labour would deal with this didn't really mean anything in particular. And that's not to even especially criticise Rayner, it's almost unavoidable these things will happen in a career, but I suspect it's one of the issues being tagged on Swinson

She wasn't lying though - all Corbyn ever said on existing student debt at the last election was answering a question of "What do you plan to do about existing debt if you're planning on getting rid of new stuff?" with "Well, that's not part of our manifesto, but we'd look at that in the future. I'm sure we'd do something with it - we would deal with it." The Conservatives then took that equivocation and deflection as a definite promise to cancel all existing fees immediately and then berated Labour for not keeping a promise they had never made.

Rayner seems like a very weird choice for a comparator, as she seems about as close to an honest politician as we are likely to get.

Swinson, on the other hand, voted for an EU referendum in 2008 that she said was "unforgiveable" for Cameron to promise in 2010, has voted consistently for benefit cuts, austerity, and corporation tax cuts and now rails against those things that she made happen, and has led a phenomenally disingenuous and mendacious campaign this election, relying on pamphlets that are packed full of bare-faced lies.

Puja

Saying you'll deal with something should mean something, not merely be an ambiguity or placeholder on conversation, and btw, Labour picked up a lot of support from what Corbyn said, as did the Lib Dems from their earlier conference policy on tuition fees. Recently, as far back as his Tory leadership campaign, Boris said he'd deal with social care, now that's regressed to he'll talk to other parties about it, maybe. Both presented a deal with it message, both didn't deal with it.

Though again it's going to be very hard to have any public life and not at times have previous comments of group affiliations which don't speak to a current position.

And I'm not saying this to suggest everyone need agree with Jo Swinson, and certainly not vote for her, I'm only saying it to suggest calling her a fucking scumbag seems more than a little beyond the pale.

[Digby]

Swinson, on the other hand, voted for an EU referendum in 2008 that she said was "unforgiveable" for Cameron to promise in 2010, has voted consistently for benefit cuts, austerity, and corporation tax cuts and now rails against those things that she made happen, and has led a phenomenally disingenuous and mendacious campaign this election, relying on pamphlets that are packed full of bare-faced lies.

Puja

There we go. Don’t know if that qualifies for “fucking scumbag” or not but who cares. Why would anyone believe for a second she will try and put in to action what she has claimed?

Wasn’t she behind every single LD recently abstaining over the US/NHS trade talks too? She’ll swing whichever it looks like there is an opportunity, she’s not unique in that, but still.

I care. She's not quick enough on her feet at the top level of political discourse to really advance her or her party's cause, which is a shame but it is what it is. But she's a decent person trying to do a decent thing, as are many Labour or Tory MPs, and she's not a 'fucking scumbag'

[Son of Mathonwy]

The vast majority of MPs are disingenuous. This campaign has already plumbed their depths of the referendum with its lies, low quality debate and general bs. Sadly, politicians know that the vast majority of people will not look beyond headlines so only need pump out lies and half truths and most will lap them up.

There's a lot of disingenuousness about, but Boris is in a class of his own (on this side of the Atlantic, at least).