England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm

[p/d]

I hope Farrell returns sporting the Aussie 10’s haircut.

[pompey-zebra]

I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...

Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player

I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.

Most of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?

More effective than the last times Tuilagi has played? Most players.

And more effective than Farrell? Well Ford for one. And no-one else has really been given a chance. Smith has had, what, a handful of games to try and press his case. Ford was being consistently the best fly half around, and still got dropped for Farrell.

Ford had 80 odd caps now so has had plenty of chance, and was little if any more effective over the last two tests than Farrell ( apart from not getting sent off obviously) so how he would change the dynamic of a faltering England is questionable at least. Smith has now more than 20 caps and had not yet convinced, so much so that he now seen as a impact full back. An arguement can be made that Farrell has had many more chances than his ability deserved, but neither Ford nor Smith have made an unanswerable case to rule Farrell out of the squad.

[morepork]

Both of those are more naturally skillful than the wooden soldier and far less of a liability.

[p/d]

Both of those are more naturally skillful than the wooden soldier and far less of a liability.

And both probably won a lot of caps with Farrell at 12

[Oakboy]

Both of those are more naturally skillful than the wooden soldier and far less of a liability.

And both probably won a lot of caps with Farrell at 12

That is the crunch. Farrell at 12 effectively negates flair/skill at 10 and doesn't do much for the other backs either.

[rjjb]

He's right.

Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.

Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?

How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them? Yes, the players are not world beaters but is there a single one who is on top form? Steward has looked solid in past games but even he has gone off.

Even worse, the team unit is getting worse, game on game. Based on the state of things when he took over, SB must have had the word 'improve' somewhere in his job spec presumably?

I don't think Steward has gone off per se - he's just a one-trick pony who's increasingly been found out.

[switchskier]

Most of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?

More effective than the last times Tuilagi has played? Most players.

And more effective than Farrell? Well Ford for one. And no-one else has really been given a chance. Smith has had, what, a handful of games to try and press his case. Ford was being consistently the best fly half around, and still got dropped for Farrell.

Ford had 80 odd caps now so has had plenty of chance, and was little if any more effective over the last two tests than Farrell ( apart from not getting sent off obviously) so how he would change the dynamic of a faltering England is questionable at least. Smith has now more than 20 caps and had not yet convinced, so much so that he now seen as a impact full back. An arguement can be made that Farrell has had many more chances than his ability deserved, but neither Ford nor Smith have made an unanswerable case to rule Farrell out of the squad.

Fin Smith it is then (actually I think he could be right in the mix come the next 6N).

As primarily a Scotland fan, Ford is no Finn Russell (crazy that there was a debate about which should make the lions tour to me) but he scares me more than Farrell. England have some phenomenal athletes and what I worry about is a ten that can get them on the front foot and hitting soft shoulders. If you're going to pick Ford then the team needs to be picked to maximise his skillset - Young's at 9 with an instruction to get the ball moving fast no matter what, Genge and Ludlum/Earls freed up to carry hard and absolute gas on the wings to exploit narrow defences.

Whereas if you're going to pick Farrell then go for the best box kicking option at 9, solidity in midfield, good chasers on the songs and your best set piece forwards. Smith might be Mitchell at 9 to keep the defense honest, hard working wings who run good angles (Murley) and an Uber athletic pack (Curry/Willis/Earls) to run the opposition off their feet.

What I'm trying to say is that England don't seem to have tailored their plan to the players in recent weeks - they're trying to get the players to follow a set plan. You can do the latter at club level where you can sign players, much harder at international level where you largely have what you have.

[Mellsblue]

The Ford and Smith are no better than Farrell argument is laughable given the length of rope Farrell has been given in comparison.

[Tom Moore]

More effective than the last times Tuilagi has played? Most players.

And more effective than Farrell? Well Ford for one. And no-one else has really been given a chance. Smith has had, what, a handful of games to try and press his case. Ford was being consistently the best fly half around, and still got dropped for Farrell.

Ford had 80 odd caps now so has had plenty of chance, and was little if any more effective over the last two tests than Farrell ( apart from not getting sent off obviously) so how he would change the dynamic of a faltering England is questionable at least. Smith has now more than 20 caps and had not yet convinced, so much so that he now seen as a impact full back. An arguement can be made that Farrell has had many more chances than his ability deserved, but neither Ford nor Smith have made an unanswerable case to rule Farrell out of the squad.

Fin Smith it is then (actually I think he could be right in the mix come the next 6N).

As primarily a Scotland fan, Ford is no Finn Russell (crazy that there was a debate about which should make the lions tour to me) but he scares me more than Farrell. England have some phenomenal athletes and what I worry about is a ten that can get them on the front foot and hitting soft shoulders. If you're going to pick Ford then the team needs to be picked to maximise his skillset - Young's at 9 with an instruction to get the ball moving fast no matter what, Genge and Ludlum/Earls freed up to carry hard and absolute gas on the wings to exploit narrow defences.

Whereas if you're going to pick Farrell then go for the best box kicking option at 9, solidity in midfield, good chasers on the songs and your best set piece forwards. Smith might be Mitchell at 9 to keep the defense honest, hard working wings who run good angles (Murley) and an Uber athletic pack (Curry/Willis/Earls) to run the opposition off their feet.

What I'm trying to say is that England don't seem to have tailored their plan to the players in recent weeks - they're trying to get the players to follow a set plan. You can do the latter at club level where you can sign players, much harder at international level where you largely have what you have.

I would agree that they don't seem to have tailored their plan, but I think that largely because there is no plan beyond kick a lot but with no thought process behind, mainly run one out into tacklers, defend badly, concede stupid penalties and drop the ball constantly.

[FKAS]

Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?

How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them? Yes, the players are not world beaters but is there a single one who is on top form? Steward has looked solid in past games but even he has gone off.

Even worse, the team unit is getting worse, game on game. Based on the state of things when he took over, SB must have had the word 'improve' somewhere in his job spec presumably?

I don't think Steward has gone off per se - he's just a one-trick pony who's increasingly been found out.

He's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.

[Epaminondas Pules]

How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them? Yes, the players are not world beaters but is there a single one who is on top form? Steward has looked solid in past games but even he has gone off.

Even worse, the team unit is getting worse, game on game. Based on the state of things when he took over, SB must have had the word 'improve' somewhere in his job spec presumably?

I don't think Steward has gone off per se - he's just a one-trick pony who's increasingly been found out.

He's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.

I feel a little bit for Earl, yes he left a hole but that’s because no other fucker bothered to actually get to the ruck. He should be more aware of his defensive team mates, but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to put just a smidge of effort in. He should have checked, but it’s a whole defence failure. If Earl stays close there I are gaps wide and still on the other side of the ruck. Symptom of our defence being utter shunt.

[Mellsblue]

I don't think Steward has gone off per se - he's just a one-trick pony who's increasingly been found out.

He's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.

I feel a little bit for Earl, yes he left a hole but that’s because no other fucker bothered to actually get to the ruck. He should be more aware of his defensive team mates, but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to put just a smidge of effort in. He should have checked, but it’s a whole defence failure. If Earl stays close there I are gaps wide and still on the other side of the ruck. Symptom of our defence being utter shunt.

Yep.

[fivepointer]

Easy to pick on poor individual efforts. There's been plenty of those in the 4 warm up games.

I'm struggling to think of a single performance from one of our players over the 4 games that came close to them being at their best.

It cant be that they all cant play, but that the way they are being prepared is simply not up to scratch.

Whether that improves enough for us to not be a total embarrassment at the WC is the question now.

[Danno]

The Ford and Smith are no better than Farrell argument is laughable given the length of rope Farrell has been given in comparison.

How is this even a conversation (let alone an argument) in 2023. Have I been in a coma?

[16th man]

I don't think Steward has gone off per se - he's just a one-trick pony who's increasingly been found out.

He's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.

I feel a little bit for Earl, yes he left a hole but that’s because no other fucker bothered to actually get to the ruck. He should be more aware of his defensive team mates, but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to put just a smidge of effort in. He should have checked, but it’s a whole defence failure. If Earl stays close there I are gaps wide and still on the other side of the ruck. Symptom of our defence being utter shunt.

As I pointed out in the match, the man working across was Dan Cole. Our set up doesn't seem to account for that fact that at some point a knackered old prop may be the guy needed to link the outside and inside defence.

[twitchy]

[Banquo]

Sad to see a top bloke out of his depth tbh. In fact sad to see quite a lot of top blokes out of their depth.

[fivepointer]

Sad to see a top bloke out of his depth tbh. In fact sad to see quite a lot of top blokes out of their depth.

It is. They have been over promoted.

Which begs the question why someone running the show - Bill Sweeney or Conor O'Shea maybe - didnt recommend bringing on board a few seasoned pros at least in the short term.

[Banquo]

Sad to see a top bloke out of his depth tbh. In fact sad to see quite a lot of top blokes out of their depth.

It is. They have been over promoted.

Which begs the question why someone running the show - Bill Sweeney or Conor O'Shea maybe - didnt recommend bringing on board a few seasoned pros at least in the short term.

Deja vu tbh. Jonno, Lancaster etc etc. Internationally experienced Jones parachutes in and makes an immediate difference.

[p/d]

Sad to see a top bloke out of his depth tbh. In fact sad to see quite a lot of top blokes out of their depth.

Bloody joke. His qualifications in union are at Bedford entry point.

No sympathy from me. Took the role so can fall on his own sword

[Mellsblue]

Sad to see a top bloke out of his depth tbh. In fact sad to see quite a lot of top blokes out of their depth.

Bloody joke. His qualifications in union are at Bedford entry point.

No sympathy from me. Took the role so can fall on his own sword

MOD!!!

[Oakboy]

Easy to pick on poor individual efforts. There's been plenty of those in the 4 warm up games.

I'm struggling to think of a single performance from one of our players over the 4 games that came close to them being at their best.

It cant be that they all cant play, but that the way they are being prepared is simply not up to scratch.

Whether that improves enough for us to not be a total embarrassment at the WC is the question now.

Spot on. With so many players underperforming, I find it hard to believe that SB has not made an adjustment or two to the squad. May for Watson as the only change seems to indicate a silly stubborn streak or blindness to reality. Now, the only theoretical personnel improvement for the Argentina game is Curry if fit but should he be selected with no game time behind him? Beyond that first match, does everything rest on transformation when Vunipola and Farrell return? If so, there is little hope.

[Banquo]

Sad to see a top bloke out of his depth tbh. In fact sad to see quite a lot of top blokes out of their depth.

Bloody joke. His qualifications in union are at Bedford entry point.

No sympathy from me. Took the role so can fall on his own sword

I think Kevin Sinfield is a great guy, hence the sadness. Which is different to not having sympathy for taking the role- but more importantly, it shouldn't have been offered. MInd, who offered you the role of winding Mells up

[p/d]

Sad to see a top bloke out of his depth tbh. In fact sad to see quite a lot of top blokes out of their depth.

Bloody joke. His qualifications in union are at Bedford entry point.

No sympathy from me. Took the role so can fall on his own sword

I think Kevin Sinfield is a great guy, hence the sadness. Which is different to not having sympathy for taking the role- but more importantly, it shouldn't have been offered. MInd, who offered you the role of winding Mells up

Mells is as sharp as a tack, so you have to grab the opportunity when it arises.

Watching the Aus game last night I couldn’t help but admire the intent and ambition of Jones’ boys. And if the mullet could kick his goals then the result could have been closer. Had sort of hoped this is what we would have seen from England. Similar results and I’ll discipline but you feel Australia have something to build on, whilst us…..

[FKAS]

He's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.

I feel a little bit for Earl, yes he left a hole but that’s because no other fucker bothered to actually get to the ruck. He should be more aware of his defensive team mates, but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to put just a smidge of effort in. He should have checked, but it’s a whole defence failure. If Earl stays close there I are gaps wide and still on the other side of the ruck. Symptom of our defence being utter shunt.

As I pointed out in the match, the man working across was Dan Cole. Our set up doesn't seem to account for that fact that at some point a knackered old prop may be the guy needed to link the outside and inside defence.

Doesn't matter, you move off from guard and push out when the inside defender pushes you out. You can always track across and out, if you get broken inside you then you are in far more trouble.

Sinfield, like all of the coaches, is going to face a lot of pressure if the world cup goes as bad as we expect it will. The England players not trusting each other, not buying into his philosophy or just being to thick to follow the basics - whatever the reality it needs to be fixed and fixed fast if we want to avoid further embarrassment.