RugbyRebels

On the money there Banquo. Not sure what the game plan was or, if what I was watching was it, then why we stuck to it.
Don’t like to have a go at the ref, but not that impressed. Penalty aside thought Ribbans went ok and (as expected) Dan brought energy and looked undamagrd goods.

That said, feck we were sh*t

England being unable to defend is worrying. They can usually defend well enough to still be in most games late on. Sausage Bap has a lot of work to do with very little time to do it in.

canta_brian wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:40 pm England being unable to defend is worrying. They can usually defend well enough to still be in most games late on. Sausage Bap has a lot of work to do with very little time to do it in.

and you know his solution to everything will be kick and clap.

There’s also the off field governance issues. You look at players who to my eyes seemed mediocre who got snatched up by other nations and did well. That Scottish centre what was his name? Chris Harris? And then of course one Andy Farrell and Mike Catt who seemed to have done well as coaches after a pretty mediocre time with England. The game as a whole seems a mess.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:15 pm Ireland made more mistakes in that game than they have in two years, yet still reamed us. We were utterly shyte in long periods. Our defence was splintered too easily for tries, our tackling (esp backs) was shockingly weak/poor, we continue to ship ludicrous penalties, pathetic at the breakdown, and ball in hand clumsy with a bizarre tactic of kicking to a very good back three after no more than 3 good phases.

Poor fare with the turd topping of Billys fazalike red (sadly he'd been dire as well- bye), and Dalys missed touch from a pen (much as I wanted him at 11, he was shocking in defence today- so weak in the tackle). Improving from desperate to rubbish isnt much consolation.

Lineout was mostly fine. Chessum and Dan looked lively. All of Steward, Daly, Youngs, Stuart and Billy were pants. Earl was anonymous bar a couple of carries and his ridiculous shouting. Cant be bothered with the rest tbh. Dunno what happens next, bar a stout defence of Steward

So so so many mistakes.I haven't seen us pass that much ball on the deck and to the opposition in a very very long time. I'll be a bit surprised if Ross Byrne survives as our no2 no10. And a misfiring line out is practically unheard of.

As for England, your main problems appear to be selection and tactics. You seem to have positively decided not to attempt to play until you get to 50+ minutes. My suspicion is that you just aren't fit enough to play the modern fast game for long enough - hence your team have the least sticky contact lenses in Christendom and constant niggles. When you decide to play and remove the anchor which is Youngs you can play a bit. Ford is a proper threat

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:04 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:15 pm Ireland made more mistakes in that game than they have in two years, yet still reamed us. We were utterly shyte in long periods. Our defence was splintered too easily for tries, our tackling (esp backs) was shockingly weak/poor, we continue to ship ludicrous penalties, pathetic at the breakdown, and ball in hand clumsy with a bizarre tactic of kicking to a very good back three after no more than 3 good phases.

Poor fare with the turd topping of Billys fazalike red (sadly he'd been dire as well- bye), and Dalys missed touch from a pen (much as I wanted him at 11, he was shocking in defence today- so weak in the tackle). Improving from desperate to rubbish isnt much consolation.

Lineout was mostly fine. Chessum and Dan looked lively. All of Steward, Daly, Youngs, Stuart and Billy were pants. Earl was anonymous bar a couple of carries and his ridiculous shouting. Cant be bothered with the rest tbh. Dunno what happens next, bar a stout defence of Steward

So so so many mistakes.I haven't seen us pass that much ball on the deck and to the opposition in a very very long time. I'll be a bit surprised if Ross Byrne survives as our no2 no10. And a misfiring line out is practically unheard of.

As for England, your main problems appear to be selection and tactics. You seem to have positively decided not to attempt to play until you get to 50+ minutes. My suspicion is that you just aren't fit enough to play the modern fast game for long enough - hence your team have the least sticky contact lenses in Christendom and constant niggles. When you decide to play and remove the anchor which is Youngs you can play a bit. Ford is a proper threat

Just selection and tactics .

Seriously I’d add piss poor execution and dreadful ruck technique/decision making. Oh and defence and tackling.

I reckon that a combined XV from the two camps would only have one Englishman in it - Jack Willis - and Scrote Bungler doesn't pick him.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:17 am I reckon that a combined XV from the two camps would only have one Englishman in it - Jack Willis - and Scrote Bungler doesn't pick him.

Who would Willis replace? JVVDDDFFF and POM are very good internationals and integral to what Ireland do well.

Shyte Boss has a mountain to climb.

At this point the last straw to clutch is that Saturday Beastings is a true disciple if the Eddie way, and that w do in fact have some form of game plan but we're hiding it until the real stuff begins

Its possible we are keeping some of our powder dry.

But that doesnt explain our inability to perform so many basics up to an acceptable level. Nor why so many of our players look flat footed, unenthused and well short of their best form.

I thought we would improve but the signs are that this team, wedded to a style so rigid and lacking in ambition, is going precisely nowhere. We are performing so wretchedly that getting out of our WC pool is by no means a given.

Next up Fiji, who will give it a go and have the firepower to give us quite a game next weekend.

Ganeplan? They are bound to view our work in and around the lineout a success. They will be hoping to deploy the Ford/Farrell axis which will lead to a back 3 that includes Malins. Leaving them to flip a coin for 9 & 13.

Load the pack and bench with lock-cum-back rowers and hope we get a lucky break in the QF

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:32 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:17 am I reckon that a combined XV from the two camps would only have one Englishman in it - Jack Willis - and Scrote Bungler doesn't pick him.

Who would Willis replace? JVVDDDFFF and POM are very good internationals and integral to what Ireland do well.

Shyte Boss has a mountain to climb.

Exactly, I'm unsure why Willis is so rated! He also disappeared last time he was in Dublin too.

While our lack of attack is a huge concern in itself I haven't seen may comments about our defensive shape anywhere - every game (incl. 6 nations) we're leaving the opposition winger with 20+ yards space on the touchline. Ireland scored 4 from it today, Argentina (and Fiji) will be licking their lips at taking the ball wide, esp. due to our apparent inability to score tries of our own

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:17 am I reckon that a combined XV from the two camps would only have one Englishman in it - Jack Willis - and Scrote Bungler doesn't pick him.

Maybe not in the XV but for a matchday squad, I reckon their coaches would look at the principle of form is temporary, class is permanent, and fancy themselves to get the best from George, Itoje, and Ford, and they may well take a fit Curry too.

If you're picking just off the evidence of the last couple of weeks, George might be the only one as he's been pretty good hitting his jumpers.

Skalyba wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:43 am While our lack of attack is a huge concern in itself I haven't seen may comments about our defensive shape anywhere - every game (incl. 6 nations) we're leaving the opposition winger with 20+ yards space on the touchline. Ireland scored 4 from it today, Argentina (and Fiji) will be licking their lips at taking the ball wide, esp. due to our apparent inability to score tries of our own

Defence is one of Banquo’s, for a better word, rants. I’m sure they are adjusting to a new defensive pattern and are adapting at different rates. That said it reminds of the joys of u13’s when we all just ran after the ball whilst ignoring shape etc

Skalyba wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:43 am While our lack of attack is a huge concern in itself I haven't seen may comments about our defensive shape anywhere - every game (incl. 6 nations) we're leaving the opposition winger with 20+ yards space on the touchline. Ireland scored 4 from it today, Argentina (and Fiji) will be licking their lips at taking the ball wide, esp. due to our apparent inability to score tries of our own

Yeah I said our defence was sh’t along with the tackling. Our wide defence has looked iffy for ages tbh

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:49 am

Skalyba wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:43 am While our lack of attack is a huge concern in itself I haven't seen may comments about our defensive shape anywhere - every game (incl. 6 nations) we're leaving the opposition winger with 20+ yards space on the touchline. Ireland scored 4 from it today, Argentina (and Fiji) will be licking their lips at taking the ball wide, esp. due to our apparent inability to score tries of our own

Defence is one of Banquo’s, for a better word, rants. I’m sure they are adjusting to a new defensive pattern and are adapting at different rates. That said it reminds of the joys of u13’s when we all just ran after the ball whilst ignoring shape etc

England's defence worked in certain areas and was lax in others. We battered the Irish rolling maul. How many rolling mauls in our 22 did we turn over? Several others led to scrambled carries off the back. We got into their lineout well.

Got to agree that how narrow our defence gets is a concern. Can't make it that easy to pick a player out in space. That being said it would be easier to defend those situations if we could keep 15 on the pitch.

One of my big annoyances was that Billy got him sent off after a passage of play where Ireland went though the phases on halfway and got absolutely nowhere before we turned them over. If the halfwit hadn't done his best Fazlet impersonation we'd have had a lineout in the Irish 22 instead of defending one in our own (that we turned over).

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:58 am

Skalyba wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:43 am While our lack of attack is a huge concern in itself I haven't seen may comments about our defensive shape anywhere - every game (incl. 6 nations) we're leaving the opposition winger with 20+ yards space on the touchline. Ireland scored 4 from it today, Argentina (and Fiji) will be licking their lips at taking the ball wide, esp. due to our apparent inability to score tries of our own

Yeah I said our defence was sh’t along with the tackling. Our wide defence has looked iffy for ages tbh

We missed five more tackles than Ireland having both attempted the same number (weirdly).

We had more territory than Ireland, they had more possession. Got to look at our inability to resource the ruck or support players going into contact properly. Ireland turned us over to easily in their 22. When we actually kept hold of the ball and went through the phases we scored. It was just we managed to do it only once.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:05 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:58 am

Skalyba wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:43 am While our lack of attack is a huge concern in itself I haven't seen may comments about our defensive shape anywhere - every game (incl. 6 nations) we're leaving the opposition winger with 20+ yards space on the touchline. Ireland scored 4 from it today, Argentina (and Fiji) will be licking their lips at taking the ball wide, esp. due to our apparent inability to score tries of our own

Yeah I said our defence was sh’t along with the tackling. Our wide defence has looked iffy for ages tbh

We missed five more tackles than Ireland having both attempted the same number (weirdly).

We had more territory than Ireland, they had more possession. Got to look at our inability to resource the ruck or support players going into contact properly. Ireland turned us over to easily in their 22. When we actually kept hold of the ball and went through the phases we scored. It was just we managed to do it only once.

Well you keep trying the positives, but as earlier, Ireland would themselves say they weren’t at the races, but still stuffed us. Our tackling was weak (I don’t care if Irelands wasn’t much better, 18% missed is terrible) our defence in loose play was awful, as you say the breakdown was comedic, discipline appalling, and back play not even attempted frankly.

Most of these characteristics have been present for years. There’s a massive cultural shift needed in the side, almost a back to basics…which are dire in too many key areas. We have been rubbish three games on the bounce.

I still feel we’ve too many players being picked on past reputation rather than form - imo Itoje simply doesn’t merit a starting berth at moment and I would start Lawes at 4 for match against Fiji and pool matches until Itoje somehow regains his mojo and those fetcher instincts. Willis at 6 would have helped with the turnovers.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:58 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:05 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:58 am

Yeah I said our defence was sh’t along with the tackling. Our wide defence has looked iffy for ages tbh

We missed five more tackles than Ireland having both attempted the same number (weirdly).

We had more territory than Ireland, they had more possession. Got to look at our inability to resource the ruck or support players going into contact properly. Ireland turned us over to easily in their 22. When we actually kept hold of the ball and went through the phases we scored. It was just we managed to do it only once.

Well you keep trying the positives, but as earlier, Ireland would themselves say they weren’t at the races, but still stuffed us. Our tackling was weak (I don’t care if Irelands wasn’t much better, 18% missed is terrible) our defence in loose play was awful, as you say the breakdown was comedic, discipline appalling, and back play not even attempted frankly.

Most of these characteristics have been present for years. There’s a massive cultural shift needed in the side, almost a back to basics…which are dire in too many key areas. We have been rubbish three games on the bounce.

You are seeing the back to basics rebuild taking place. It takes time though and then people complain about the missing elements...

Ireland were at the races, we knocked them off their stride. They look to the set piece to launch their classy first phase moves from, we didn't give them good quality ball from those. We defended narrow and hard, bar the first try, taking away their carries around the ruck which is normally such a strength. They took advantage further out which is definitely an area we need to target.

My main concern remains the ruck area. You can complain about the back moves but we showed some intent there but we had very little momentum with the Irish lying all over the breakdown or pilfering the ball. Some very weak captaincy from Lawes did nothing to help that area but we need to really be smashing those guys on the floor to make a statement to the referee and speed the ball up. Can't just keep running at a set defence at this level.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:47 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:58 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:05 am

We missed five more tackles than Ireland having both attempted the same number (weirdly).

We had more territory than Ireland, they had more possession. Got to look at our inability to resource the ruck or support players going into contact properly. Ireland turned us over to easily in their 22. When we actually kept hold of the ball and went through the phases we scored. It was just we managed to do it only once.

Well you keep trying the positives, but as earlier, Ireland would themselves say they weren’t at the races, but still stuffed us. Our tackling was weak (I don’t care if Irelands wasn’t much better, 18% missed is terrible) our defence in loose play was awful, as you say the breakdown was comedic, discipline appalling, and back play not even attempted frankly.

Most of these characteristics have been present for years. There’s a massive cultural shift needed in the side, almost a back to basics…which are dire in too many key areas. We have been rubbish three games on the bounce.

You are seeing the back to basics rebuild taking place. It takes time though and then people complain about the missing elements...

Ireland were at the races, we knocked them off their stride. They look to the set piece to launch their classy first phase moves from, we didn't give them good quality ball from those. We defended narrow and hard, bar the first try, taking away their carries around the ruck which is normally such a strength. They took advantage further out which is definitely an area we need to target.

My main concern remains the ruck area. You can complain about the back moves but we showed some intent there but we had very little momentum with the Irish lying all over the breakdown or pilfering the ball. Some very weak captaincy from Lawes did nothing to help that area but we need to really be smashing those guys on the floor to make a statement to the referee and speed the ball up. Can't just keep running at a set defence at this level.

Well I suppose you have to give the lineout nause some credit for improving the lineout a bit and the maul defence a bit.

But as for everything else, if you think Ireland were anything but rusty then you must be Steve's Bestie. Basics eh- our tackling was shocking, even aside from Billy; our wide defence was shocking (we've defended narrow and hard for years, and its had questionable efficacy against teams that wise up); our ruck basics (we agree here) were shocking; our discipline- a basic basic- shocking; our passing, shocking; our kicking- Daly to touch anyone- poor to middling, and overdone in attack; our intent in attack, simplistic and inaccurate (albeit again, we agree, tricky on iffy ball, yet we kicked good ball); countering...nothing til Smith appeared in a dead game. But obviously, had the comms genius Genge been skipper, the breakdown would have magically cleared as the Irish definitely don't do that to anyone else .

If this was the start of a basics rebuild- 8 games in- we better hurry up before Argentina ream us.

Having watched us and then Fiji play France, next weekend will be a very tough game. Fiji will fancy their chances and rightly so.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:15 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:47 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:58 am
Well you keep trying the positives, but as earlier, Ireland would themselves say they weren’t at the races, but still stuffed us. Our tackling was weak (I don’t care if Irelands wasn’t much better, 18% missed is terrible) our defence in loose play was awful, as you say the breakdown was comedic, discipline appalling, and back play not even attempted frankly.

Most of these characteristics have been present for years. There’s a massive cultural shift needed in the side, almost a back to basics…which are dire in too many key areas. We have been rubbish three games on the bounce.

You are seeing the back to basics rebuild taking place. It takes time though and then people complain about the missing elements...

Ireland were at the races, we knocked them off their stride. They look to the set piece to launch their classy first phase moves from, we didn't give them good quality ball from those. We defended narrow and hard, bar the first try, taking away their carries around the ruck which is normally such a strength. They took advantage further out which is definitely an area we need to target.

My main concern remains the ruck area. You can complain about the back moves but we showed some intent there but we had very little momentum with the Irish lying all over the breakdown or pilfering the ball. Some very weak captaincy from Lawes did nothing to help that area but we need to really be smashing those guys on the floor to make a statement to the referee and speed the ball up. Can't just keep running at a set defence at this level.

Well I suppose you have to give the lineout nause some credit for improving the lineout a bit and the maul defence a bit.

But as for everything else, if you think Ireland were anything but rusty then you must be Steve's Bestie. Basics eh- our tackling was shocking, even aside from Billy; our wide defence was shocking (we've defended narrow and hard for years, and its had questionable efficacy against teams that wise up); our ruck basics (we agree here) were shocking; our discipline- a basic basic- shocking; our passing, shocking; our kicking- Daly to touch anyone- poor to middling, and overdone in attack; our intent in attack, simplistic and inaccurate (albeit again, we agree, tricky on iffy ball, yet we kicked good ball); countering...nothing til Smith appeared in a dead game. But obviously, had the comms genius Genge been skipper, the breakdown would have magically cleared as the Irish definitely don't do that to anyone else .

If this was the start of a basics rebuild- 8 games in- we better hurry up before Argentina ream us.

A lineout so good it's generally considered one of the best in the world and Scotland couldn't get near it with the openside throwing in but we only improved "a bit". I know you are frustrated but I think you need acknowledge the improvement in some of the areas.

I'm not saying it's good enough, I'm just saying it's not the worst we've seen from England and that from a blank slate rebuild we are seeing some areas start to come up towards standard.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:00 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:15 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:47 pm

You are seeing the back to basics rebuild taking place. It takes time though and then people complain about the missing elements...

Ireland were at the races, we knocked them off their stride. They look to the set piece to launch their classy first phase moves from, we didn't give them good quality ball from those. We defended narrow and hard, bar the first try, taking away their carries around the ruck which is normally such a strength. They took advantage further out which is definitely an area we need to target.

My main concern remains the ruck area. You can complain about the back moves but we showed some intent there but we had very little momentum with the Irish lying all over the breakdown or pilfering the ball. Some very weak captaincy from Lawes did nothing to help that area but we need to really be smashing those guys on the floor to make a statement to the referee and speed the ball up. Can't just keep running at a set defence at this level.

Well I suppose you have to give the lineout nause some credit for improving the lineout a bit and the maul defence a bit.

But as for everything else, if you think Ireland were anything but rusty then you must be Steve's Bestie. Basics eh- our tackling was shocking, even aside from Billy; our wide defence was shocking (we've defended narrow and hard for years, and its had questionable efficacy against teams that wise up); our ruck basics (we agree here) were shocking; our discipline- a basic basic- shocking; our passing, shocking; our kicking- Daly to touch anyone- poor to middling, and overdone in attack; our intent in attack, simplistic and inaccurate (albeit again, we agree, tricky on iffy ball, yet we kicked good ball); countering...nothing til Smith appeared in a dead game. But obviously, had the comms genius Genge been skipper, the breakdown would have magically cleared as the Irish definitely don't do that to anyone else .

If this was the start of a basics rebuild- 8 games in- we better hurry up before Argentina ream us.

A lineout so good it's generally considered one of the best in the world and Scotland couldn't get near it with the openside throwing in but we only improved "a bit". I know you are frustrated but I think you need acknowledge the improvement in some of the areas.

I'm not saying it's good enough, I'm just saying it's not the worst we've seen from England and that from a blank slate rebuild we are seeing some areas start to come up towards standard.

Oh I thought you were saying improvements in this game- the lineout has improved a bit since the 6N, having been good in the 6N. (was it not ok to good under Eddie though? I can't remember )

I reckon its not far off the worst we've seen in years, esp looking across the 3 matches. Its not a 'blank slate rebuild either' - same player group give or take, for a start.