England V NZ

[Oakboy]

I’d say it’s more that it is scripted and there is no room for ad libbing. Take the intercept. As planned as could be. Off the too long ball to 10. Regardless. Just do that no matter what.

Pretty sure Eddie wants an unscripted attack so there is licence to ad lib. The issue looked like there was a complete lack of accuracy and the lineout is the perfect example for me. The lineout should be caught just inside the 15 meaning the NZ defence has to wait, the ball should be dropped into JVP's bread basket and then whipped away to probably a big Manu carry up the middle. What actually happens is the lineout is overthrown, as it's over the 15m the Kiwi flanker is allowed to fly up. The pass down to JVP is down to his left so he has to readjust before throwing the pass blind, a more experienced scrum half probably aborts and goes to plan B.

That lack of accuracy was throughout the first 70 mins.

Puja, joking aside I agree. Porter came on and did a solid job making the right decisions and generally just what England needed him to. Slade similar.

I wonder if we might see Stuart given the nod Vs the Boks next week and perhaps a change in substitute loosehead. I'm fairly sure that Simmonds won't get another chance to repeatedly knock on in contact.

mako was outstanding so that would be odd.

Agreed but in view of Genge's scrummaging ordeal might Marler not be a thought?

[Banquo]

Pretty sure Eddie wants an unscripted attack so there is licence to ad lib. The issue looked like there was a complete lack of accuracy and the lineout is the perfect example for me. The lineout should be caught just inside the 15 meaning the NZ defence has to wait, the ball should be dropped into JVP's bread basket and then whipped away to probably a big Manu carry up the middle. What actually happens is the lineout is overthrown, as it's over the 15m the Kiwi flanker is allowed to fly up. The pass down to JVP is down to his left so he has to readjust before throwing the pass blind, a more experienced scrum half probably aborts and goes to plan B.

That lack of accuracy was throughout the first 70 mins.

Puja, joking aside I agree. Porter came on and did a solid job making the right decisions and generally just what England needed him to. Slade similar.

I wonder if we might see Stuart given the nod Vs the Boks next week and perhaps a change in substitute loosehead. I'm fairly sure that Simmonds won't get another chance to repeatedly knock on in contact.

mako was outstanding so that would be odd.

Agreed but in view of Genge's scrummaging ordeal might Marler not be a thought?

I'd assumed Marler wasn't available, lost track of where he is currently at on that front.

[Puja]

Pretty sure Eddie wants an unscripted attack so there is licence to ad lib. The issue looked like there was a complete lack of accuracy and the lineout is the perfect example for me. The lineout should be caught just inside the 15 meaning the NZ defence has to wait, the ball should be dropped into JVP's bread basket and then whipped away to probably a big Manu carry up the middle. What actually happens is the lineout is overthrown, as it's over the 15m the Kiwi flanker is allowed to fly up. The pass down to JVP is down to his left so he has to readjust before throwing the pass blind, a more experienced scrum half probably aborts and goes to plan B.

That lack of accuracy was throughout the first 70 mins.

Puja, joking aside I agree. Porter came on and did a solid job making the right decisions and generally just what England needed him to. Slade similar.

I wonder if we might see Stuart given the nod Vs the Boks next week and perhaps a change in substitute loosehead. I'm fairly sure that Simmonds won't get another chance to repeatedly knock on in contact.

mako was outstanding so that would be odd.

Agreed but in view of Genge's scrummaging ordeal might Marler not be a thought?

I'll take a moment to note that Lomax was cheating like a bastard and being allowed to get away with it by Raynal. Granted, Genge needed to cope better with it (and on at least two occasions, to have sharp words with Simmonds about packing down and scrummaging properly to give him support and worrying about the breakaway once the scrum had been not lost), but I don't know it's a sign of major structural weakness.

Puja

[Oakboy]

mako was outstanding so that would be odd.

Agreed but in view of Genge's scrummaging ordeal might Marler not be a thought?

I'll take a moment to note that Lomax was cheating like a bastard and being allowed to get away with it by Raynal. Granted, Genge needed to cope better with it (and on at least two occasions, to have sharp words with Simmonds about packing down and scrummaging properly to give him support and worrying about the breakaway once the scrum had been not lost), but I don't know it's a sign of major structural weakness.

Puja

Fair comment but might Marler as a significant scrummaging bench option be a safer back-up? Few do to him what Lomax did to Genge (whoever was at fault). You are the scrummaging expert so I'm not arguing strongly. I just think Marler in the squad as a bench option against the big boys would be reassuring perhaps.

[Peej]

I’d say it’s more that it is scripted and there is no room for ad libbing. Take the intercept. As planned as could be. Off the too long ball to 10. Regardless. Just do that no matter what.

Pretty sure Eddie wants an unscripted attack so there is licence to ad lib. The issue looked like there was a complete lack of accuracy and the lineout is the perfect example for me. The lineout should be caught just inside the 15 meaning the NZ defence has to wait, the ball should be dropped into JVP's bread basket and then whipped away to probably a big Manu carry up the middle. What actually happens is the lineout is overthrown, as it's over the 15m the Kiwi flanker is allowed to fly up. The pass down to JVP is down to his left so he has to readjust before throwing the pass blind, a more experienced scrum half probably aborts and goes to plan B.

That lack of accuracy was throughout the first 70 mins.

Puja, joking aside I agree. Porter came on and did a solid job making the right decisions and generally just what England needed him to. Slade similar.

I wonder if we might see Stuart given the nod Vs the Boks next week and perhaps a change in substitute loosehead. I'm fairly sure that Simmonds won't get another chance to repeatedly knock on in contact.

I find England are way too prescriptive, rather than adlibbing. The look over coached to play to certain patterns rather than just letting Smith call what he sees, which is why so much of the ball playing comes through Youngs/JVP at 9 or Farrell at 12. Even the intercept was going to Farrell to make the call about where the ball goes next, not to Manu just to crash up.

When England stopped playing to plan and just went for it in the last 10 minutes they looked infinitely better. Just like they did against Ireland in the 6N when reduced to 14.

Expecting Maro to come back in too, despite Willis being able to offer great physicality and an ability to slow whatever ball the Bokke want to use.

[Beasties]

Agreed but in view of Genge's scrummaging ordeal might Marler not be a thought?

I'll take a moment to note that Lomax was cheating like a bastard and being allowed to get away with it by Raynal. Granted, Genge needed to cope better with it (and on at least two occasions, to have sharp words with Simmonds about packing down and scrummaging properly to give him support and worrying about the breakaway once the scrum had been not lost), but I don't know it's a sign of major structural weakness.

Puja

Fair comment but might Marler as a significant scrummaging bench option be a safer back-up? Few do to him what Lomax did to Genge (whoever was at fault). You are the scrummaging expert so I'm not arguing strongly. I just think Marler in the squad as a bench option against the big boys would be reassuring perhaps.

Seemed to me that there was a decent scrummaging contest going on that Raynal completely fekked up by calling most things wrongly. Of the four props on display before the changes it was Lomax and Sinckler that were struggling a bit. I’m not rewatching the first 65 mins or so for anyone though.

I haven’t been keeping tabs on SA at all but if it’s Malherbe/Koch at TH then they’ll be licking their lips at Mako. VRR would’ve been handy for this particular game, as well as Mako did on Sat.

[Banquo]

mako was outstanding so that would be odd.

Agreed but in view of Genge's scrummaging ordeal might Marler not be a thought?

I'll take a moment to note that Lomax was cheating like a bastard and being allowed to get away with it by Raynal. Granted, Genge needed to cope better with it (and on at least two occasions, to have sharp words with Simmonds about packing down and scrummaging properly to give him support and worrying about the breakaway once the scrum had been not lost), but I don't know it's a sign of major structural weakness.

Puja

Danger of picking someone well out of position like Simmonds- mind, did Genge also struggle on right hand side of the park scrums? Its unusual for Genge to struggle- he's normally aggressive and occasionally gives pens away because of that.

Watching that game back, like the Argentina game, we should have scored a lot more points. And again too many pens and stupid mistakes- seemed to be offsides this time, related to defensive worries I'd say. We have to have more pace in the back line somehow. Hopefully JVP will not be too traumatised by his awful 15 minutes or so- what I would say is that he does seem to have picked up a few of Youngs worst habits, which is spooky.

No idea what I'd do for the SA game . Instead of trying to outmuscle them, I'd like to see Wurry start and just be very smart come the lineout. In the backs.....got nothing other than starting JVP, May, Freeman and Steward (plus 3 others )

[Banquo]

I'll take a moment to note that Lomax was cheating like a bastard and being allowed to get away with it by Raynal. Granted, Genge needed to cope better with it (and on at least two occasions, to have sharp words with Simmonds about packing down and scrummaging properly to give him support and worrying about the breakaway once the scrum had been not lost), but I don't know it's a sign of major structural weakness.

Puja

Fair comment but might Marler as a significant scrummaging bench option be a safer back-up? Few do to him what Lomax did to Genge (whoever was at fault). You are the scrummaging expert so I'm not arguing strongly. I just think Marler in the squad as a bench option against the big boys would be reassuring perhaps.

Seemed to me that there was a decent scrummaging contest going on that Raynal completely fekked up by calling most things wrongly. Of the four props on display before the changes it was Lomax and Sinckler that were struggling a bit. I’m not rewatching the first 65 mins or so for anyone though.

I haven’t been keeping tabs on SA at all but if it’s Malherbe/Koch at TH then they’ll be licking their lips at Mako. VRR would’ve been handy for this particular game, as well as Mako did on Sat.

Mako has the odd bad scrummaging game, but you don't play at that level for that long without being relatively capable. Would you really stick VRR in against the boks for his first taste of intl rugby?

[Peej]

I'd go for more pace in the backline. We won't be able to out-bosh the Boks, but we can run around them. SA likely to field Kolbe and Arendse on the wings who are elusive and rapid, and if we are flat footed they will cut us to ribbons.

But SA are a bit flaky in midfield. Willemse isn't a Test 10 (though Libbock might get a start this week after coming off the bench), and Esterhuizen/De Allende at 12 and/or 13 with Am is a weakness to be attacked.

[Beasties]

Fair comment but might Marler as a significant scrummaging bench option be a safer back-up? Few do to him what Lomax did to Genge (whoever was at fault). You are the scrummaging expert so I'm not arguing strongly. I just think Marler in the squad as a bench option against the big boys would be reassuring perhaps.

Seemed to me that there was a decent scrummaging contest going on that Raynal completely fekked up by calling most things wrongly. Of the four props on display before the changes it was Lomax and Sinckler that were struggling a bit. I’m not rewatching the first 65 mins or so for anyone though.

I haven’t been keeping tabs on SA at all but if it’s Malherbe/Koch at TH then they’ll be licking their lips at Mako. VRR would’ve been handy for this particular game, as well as Mako did on Sat.

Mako has the odd bad scrummaging game, but you don't play at that level for that long without being relatively capable. Would you really stick VRR in against the boks for his first taste of intl rugby?

Mako never has been a formidable scrummager. He’s improved his scrummaging to the heady heights of acceptable against your average TH. SA THs are better than average by some margin. I want my LH to actually apply pressure. Would I stick VRR in against SA on Sat? No, but then he’d have had a few caps well before now, injuries permitting obvs (ahem - you’ve got me there). Would I be worried about his scrummaging ability vs any SA TH? Not remotely, which is why I made that comment.

[Banquo]

Seemed to me that there was a decent scrummaging contest going on that Raynal completely fekked up by calling most things wrongly. Of the four props on display before the changes it was Lomax and Sinckler that were struggling a bit. I’m not rewatching the first 65 mins or so for anyone though.

I haven’t been keeping tabs on SA at all but if it’s Malherbe/Koch at TH then they’ll be licking their lips at Mako. VRR would’ve been handy for this particular game, as well as Mako did on Sat.

Mako has the odd bad scrummaging game, but you don't play at that level for that long without being relatively capable. Would you really stick VRR in against the boks for his first taste of intl rugby?

Mako never has been a formidable scrummager. He’s improved his scrummaging to the heady heights of acceptable against your average TH. SA THs are better than average by some margin. I want my LH to actually apply pressure. Would I stick VRR in against SA on Sat? No, but then he’d have had a few caps well before now, injuries permitting obvs (ahem - you’ve got me there). Would I be worried about his scrummaging ability vs any SA TH? Not remotely, which is why I made that comment.

I used relatively capable rather than any claim of 'formidable' or the like. Genge will likely apply some pressure as a starter, and whilst you might want to apply pressure all game, sometimes you have to cut your cloth. VRR may well be fine at prem level, but v SA it would be a huge punt- its not just their tight heads but whats coming through them- moot point anyway.

[Banquo]

I'd go for more pace in the backline. We won't be able to out-bosh the Boks, but we can run around them. SA likely to field Kolbe and Arendse on the wings who are elusive and rapid, and if we are flat footed they will cut us to ribbons.

But SA are a bit flaky in midfield. Willemse isn't a Test 10 (though Libbock might get a start this week after coming off the bench), and Esterhuizen/De Allende at 12 and/or 13 with Am is a weakness to be attacked.

yeah to more pace (who though), but DeAllende and Am are an excellent pair. Isnt Am crocked?

[Timbo]

Am is injured, yes. Kolbe, Weise, Esterhuizen, Koch, Nyanke and a few others unavailable due to test taking place outside test window.

[Banquo]

Am is injured, yes. Kolbe, Weise, Esterhuizen, Koch, Nyanke and a few others unavailable due to test taking place outside test window.

makes quite a difference all that.

[Peej]

I'd go for more pace in the backline. We won't be able to out-bosh the Boks, but we can run around them. SA likely to field Kolbe and Arendse on the wings who are elusive and rapid, and if we are flat footed they will cut us to ribbons.

But SA are a bit flaky in midfield. Willemse isn't a Test 10 (though Libbock might get a start this week after coming off the bench), and Esterhuizen/De Allende at 12 and/or 13 with Am is a weakness to be attacked.

yeah to more pace (who though), but DeAllende and Am are an excellent pair. Isnt Am crocked?

That's a typo, I meant withOUT Am. My bad! I mean De Allende at 13 is potentially pretty wobbly, and Kriel hasn't looked great there for a while.

Pace wise, I'd bring in Freeman. Maybe even play Slade at 13 instead of Manu, but that's more a least-bad option.

[Peej]

Am is injured, yes. Kolbe, Weise, Esterhuizen, Koch, Nyanke and a few others unavailable due to test taking place outside test window.

makes quite a difference all that.

Thanks, I hadn't realised that it was outside the window. That does leave the Boks noticeably weaker in some areas!

[Spiffy]

I'd go for more pace in the backline. We won't be able to out-bosh the Boks, but we can run around them. SA likely to field Kolbe and Arendse on the wings who are elusive and rapid, and if we are flat footed they will cut us to ribbons.

But SA are a bit flaky in midfield. Willemse isn't a Test 10 (though Libbock might get a start this week after coming off the bench), and Esterhuizen/De Allende at 12 and/or 13 with Am is a weakness to be attacked.

yeah to more pace (who though), but DeAllende and Am are an excellent pair. Isnt Am crocked?

That's a typo, I meant withOUT Am. My bad! I mean De Allende at 13 is potentially pretty wobbly, and Kriel hasn't looked great there for a while.

Pace wise, I'd bring in Freeman. Maybe even play Slade at 13 instead of Manu, but that's more a least-bad option.

What makes deAllende wobbly? He looks one of the strongest 13s in the world game. Agree about Kriel who probably should not be in the squad. But even if the Bok centre combination is not that great, do England themselves have the midfield to capitalize on it?
The game is probably going to be won/lost up front in any case.

[Puja]

Am is injured, yes. Kolbe, Weise, Esterhuizen, Koch, Nyanke and a few others unavailable due to test taking place outside test window.

makes quite a difference all that.

Thanks, I hadn't realised that it was outside the window. That does leave the Boks noticeably weaker in some areas!

Same. Feeling a lot more confident about the game now!

Puja

[Banquo]

I'd go for more pace in the backline. We won't be able to out-bosh the Boks, but we can run around them. SA likely to field Kolbe and Arendse on the wings who are elusive and rapid, and if we are flat footed they will cut us to ribbons.

But SA are a bit flaky in midfield. Willemse isn't a Test 10 (though Libbock might get a start this week after coming off the bench), and Esterhuizen/De Allende at 12 and/or 13 with Am is a weakness to be attacked.

yeah to more pace (who though), but DeAllende and Am are an excellent pair. Isnt Am crocked?

That's a typo, I meant withOUT Am. My bad! I mean De Allende at 13 is potentially pretty wobbly, and Kriel hasn't looked great there for a while.

Pace wise, I'd bring in Freeman. Maybe even play Slade at 13 instead of Manu, but that's more a least-bad option.

oh yes, don't see Allende as a 13 at all, esp outside Esterhuizen. Kriel has disappointed in general, lovely runner, but makes daft mistakes.

Freeman yes. As long as we dump Nowell and preferably Faz .

[Banquo]

yeah to more pace (who though), but DeAllende and Am are an excellent pair. Isnt Am crocked?

That's a typo, I meant withOUT Am. My bad! I mean De Allende at 13 is potentially pretty wobbly, and Kriel hasn't looked great there for a while.

Pace wise, I'd bring in Freeman. Maybe even play Slade at 13 instead of Manu, but that's more a least-bad option.

What makes deAllende wobbly? He looks one of the strongest 13s in the world game. Agree about Kriel who probably should not be in the squad. But even if the Bok centre combination is not that great, do England themselves have the midfield to capitalize on it?
The game is probably going to be won/lost up front in any case.

De Allende almost always plays 12 I think esp if Am is available. He's not that quick on his feet at 13.

[Danno]

makes quite a difference all that.

Thanks, I hadn't realised that it was outside the window. That does leave the Boks noticeably weaker in some areas!

Same. Feeling a lot more confident about the game now!

Puja

Not exactly a mini world cup though :/

[Spiffy]

That's a typo, I meant withOUT Am. My bad! I mean De Allende at 13 is potentially pretty wobbly, and Kriel hasn't looked great there for a while.

Pace wise, I'd bring in Freeman. Maybe even play Slade at 13 instead of Manu, but that's more a least-bad option.

What makes deAllende wobbly? He looks one of the strongest 13s in the world game. Agree about Kriel who probably should not be in the squad. But even if the Bok centre combination is not that great, do England themselves have the midfield to capitalize on it?
The game is probably going to be won/lost up front in any case.

De Allende almost always plays 12 I think esp if Am is available. He's not that quick on his feet at 13.

Agreed he is not that quick but he is powerful, a hard nut, not easy to get past and generally makes good hard yards. But yes - I should have said one of the strongest midfielders, not specifically 13s. In any case, why is it assumed he will be playing 13? He was moved out last week to accommodate Esterhuizen (who will apparently not play in this test) and wasn't bad . I don't know if Am is available, but if he is, the deAllende/Am combination is well established and strong. If not it will still probably be deAllende back at 12 + A.N.Other at 13. I would not be surprised to see Libbok get the start at 10 possibly with Willemse moving to 13, for a dangerous looking SA back division.
I don't think the outcome of this test is too dependent on which midfield slot deAllende may occupy for the Boks.

[Mikey Brown]

I think we’ve seen that Esterhuizen can’t really mix it with the big boys without Smith there to hold his hand.

[Banquo]

What makes deAllende wobbly? He looks one of the strongest 13s in the world game. Agree about Kriel who probably should not be in the squad. But even if the Bok centre combination is not that great, do England themselves have the midfield to capitalize on it?
The game is probably going to be won/lost up front in any case.

De Allende almost always plays 12 I think esp if Am is available. He's not that quick on his feet at 13.

Agreed he is not that quick but he is powerful, a hard nut, not easy to get past and generally makes good hard yards. But yes - I should have said one of the strongest midfielders, not specifically 13s. In any case, why is it assumed he will be playing 13? He was moved out last week to accommodate Esterhuizen (who will apparently not play in this test) and wasn't bad . I don't know if Am is available, but if he is, the deAllende/Am combination is well established and strong. If not it will still probably be deAllende back at 12 + A.N.Other at 13. I would not be surprised to see Libbok get the start at 10 possibly with Willemse moving to 13, for a dangerous looking SA back division.
I don't think the outcome of this test is too dependent on which midfield slot deAllende may occupy for the Boks.

No idea why its assumed he'll be at 13, I didn't say that. As I said, he and Am are one of the top pairs in intl rugby, and he is a top 12.

[Peej]

It's not assumed De Allende would be at 13. It was "IF he's at 13 he's not in his best position and not that quick in the defensive line" when I thought Esterhuizen might play. But now we know Andre the Giant won't be playing, De Allende will revert to 12 but without Am the Bok's 13 options (most likely Kriel) aren't great.