England V NZ

[Banquo]

It's not assumed De Allende would be at 13. It was "IF he's at 13 he's not in his best position and not that quick in the defensive line" when I thought Esterhuizen might play. But now we know Andre the Giant won't be playing, De Allende will revert to 12 but without Am the Bok's 13 options (most likely Kriel) aren't great.

Kriel is a good runner, but can be a tad flaky with his decisions. De Allende is an excellent 12 but tend to agree on him at 13.

[Mike Boardman]

Eddie: “Ref hard on the attacking ruck so it (Smith accepting the draw) was the right thing to do”. In hindsight, and for literally the first time ever, I may be wrong. #theraynalshow

Although, having said that, [highlight=]weren't NZ down to 13 players at that point with Perenara off injured? Not saying that we couldn't've fucked it up if we'd tried to go, but it was as good a chance as we were likely to get.

Isn't it the first time NZ haven't won after leading by 14 points or more at half time or did I mishear that stat? So catalyst for record breaking result?

Porter catalyst for breaking of record that leaves everyone underwhelmed. Sounds about right.

In defence of Porter, I have to say he did a very decent job when he came on. Made about 4-5 quality interventions in our successful 10 minutes and didn't make any mistakes. Not saying that I'll be happy with him inevitably starting next week, but thought he went well.

Puja


No, NZ had 14 on the pitch. The top of the screen was showing Havili on for Perenara, and I actually managed to pause the playback as NZ kicked off. I counted 14 All Blacks in their restart line.

[Puja]

Although, having said that, weren't NZ down to 13 players at that point with Perenara off injured? Not saying that we couldn't've fucked it up if we'd tried to go, but it was as good a chance as we were likely to get.

Puja

No, NZ had 14 on the pitch. The top of the screen was showing Havili on for Perenara, and I actually managed to pause the playback as NZ kicked off. I counted 14 All Blacks in their restart line.

Good knowledge; thanks!

Puja

[Banquo]

Although, having said that, weren't NZ down to 13 players at that point with Perenara off injured? Not saying that we couldn't've fucked it up if we'd tried to go, but it was as good a chance as we were likely to get.

Puja

No, NZ had 14 on the pitch. The top of the screen was showing Havili on for Perenara, and I actually managed to pause the playback as NZ kicked off. I counted 14 All Blacks in their restart line.

Good knowledge; thanks!

Puja

Yes, I thought they'd be down to 13 when perenera limped off, but caption showed Havili coming on for him. But with players out of position, imo we should have had a go.

[Mikey Brown]

More specifically though where should Smith have gone with basically the entire team* in front of him when he received the ball?

*reserving the right to be completely wrong about this and can’t be arsed to find a clip.

[Timbo]

I think we should have kicked long and chased hard. They had no natural 9 on the field and down to 14. If they had tried to attack us we’d have been a great chance at forcing them into a mistake or a poor kick back.

[Puja]

More specifically though where should Smith have gone with basically the entire team* in front of him when he received the ball?

*reserving the right to be completely wrong about this and can’t be arsed to find a clip.

If we were to keep playing (and I'm not convinced it would have been the right thing to do), we should've either started running forwards off Youngs to see if any holes appeared, or set up a caterpillar and box kicked to see if Steward could win it back. We'd already decided not to play when Smith dropped deep and called for the ball - you're right that there was nothing he could've done individually.

Puja

[FKAS]

More specifically though where should Smith have gone with basically the entire team* in front of him when he received the ball?

*reserving the right to be completely wrong about this and can’t be arsed to find a clip.

If we were to keep playing (and I'm not convinced it would have been the right thing to do), we should've either started running forwards off Youngs to see if any holes appeared, or set up a caterpillar and box kicked to see if Steward could win it back. We'd already decided not to play when Smith dropped deep and called for the ball - you're right that there was nothing he could've done individually.

Puja

I was expecting us to at least try a couple of forward carries to see if a bit of space opened up before giving up and booting it out. The big up and under for Steward to chase would have been a better idea though. NZ were without their fullback and Steward had, had some joy in that department.

[p/d]

I think we should have kicked long and chased hard. They had no natural 9 on the field and down to 14. If they had tried to attack us we’d have been a great chance at forcing them into a mistake or a poor kick back.

This. Just can’t get my head around why, under those set of circumstances, you would settle so readily for that option.

[Banquo]

More specifically though where should Smith have gone with basically the entire team* in front of him when he received the ball?

*reserving the right to be completely wrong about this and can’t be arsed to find a clip.

At least two answers without me being ar5ed. Not necessarily totally on Smith tho

[Oakboy]

I think we should have kicked long and chased hard. They had no natural 9 on the field and down to 14. If they had tried to attack us we’d have been a great chance at forcing them into a mistake or a poor kick back.

This. Just can’t get my head around why, under those set of circumstances, you would settle so readily for that option.

Maybe Jones is simply more concerned about reducing defeats rather than increasing wins? None of us know what the pre-match, half-time or 'during match' messages were. Watching the game and seeing us trying to win it only when it looked like a forlorn hope would seem to indicate that the attitude is that being equal to NZ is the peak of current ambition. Might player pride have taken over at some point?

Did Jones at some stage in the build-up not say something like, 'the All Blacks are there for the taking'? I find it strange that our performance in the first ten minutes did not reflect that. We are left debating the last few seconds after NZ failed to kill us off as, no doubt, their coaches thought they should have done.

[Puja]

I think we should have kicked long and chased hard. They had no natural 9 on the field and down to 14. If they had tried to attack us we’d have been a great chance at forcing them into a mistake or a poor kick back.

This. Just can’t get my head around why, under those set of circumstances, you would settle so readily for that option.

Maybe Jones is simply more concerned about reducing defeats rather than increasing wins? None of us know what the pre-match, half-time or 'during match' messages were. Watching the game and seeing us trying to win it only when it looked like a forlorn hope would seem to indicate that the attitude is that being equal to NZ is the peak of current ambition. Might player pride have taken over at some point?

Did Jones at some stage in the build-up not say something like, 'the All Blacks are there for the taking'? I find it strange that our performance in the first ten minutes did not reflect that. We are left debating the last few seconds after NZ failed to kill us off as, no doubt, their coaches thought they should have done.

In fairness, I'd imagine their coaches are quite relieved that we didn't murder them with our 63% territory and regular attacks in their 22. A more competent team could've been ahead by a distance before the last 10 minutes even came around.

A draw does seem apposite for two teams who utterly failed to beat the other.

Puja

[Danno]

It's just occurred to me that it's been years and years since I watched a match where I was fearful we'd lose our ball at every single breakdown. V Ireland and/or Wales circa 2014-15 ring vague bells.

[Banquo]

It's just occurred to me that it's been years and years since I watched a match where I was fearful we'd lose our ball at every single breakdown. V Ireland and/or Wales circa 2014-15 ring vague bells.

Or any recent Scotland match?

[Banquo]

This. Just can’t get my head around why, under those set of circumstances, you would settle so readily for that option.

Maybe Jones is simply more concerned about reducing defeats rather than increasing wins? None of us know what the pre-match, half-time or 'during match' messages were. Watching the game and seeing us trying to win it only when it looked like a forlorn hope would seem to indicate that the attitude is that being equal to NZ is the peak of current ambition. Might player pride have taken over at some point?

Did Jones at some stage in the build-up not say something like, 'the All Blacks are there for the taking'? I find it strange that our performance in the first ten minutes did not reflect that. We are left debating the last few seconds after NZ failed to kill us off as, no doubt, their coaches thought they should have done.

In fairness, I'd imagine their coaches are quite relieved that we didn't murder them with our 63% territory and regular attacks in their 22. A more competent team could've been ahead by a distance before the last 10 minutes even came around.

A draw does seem apposite for two teams who utterly failed to beat the other.

Puja

Yep amongst all the failings v Argentina and NZfailing to convent try scoring positions stands out.

[Danno]

It's just occurred to me that it's been years and years since I watched a match where I was fearful we'd lose our ball at every single breakdown. V Ireland and/or Wales circa 2014-15 ring vague bells.

Or any recent Scotland match?

Ha,fair enough. I tend to mindscrub those.

[Beasties]

It's just occurred to me that it's been years and years since I watched a match where I was fearful we'd lose our ball at every single breakdown. V Ireland and/or Wales circa 2014-15 ring vague bells.

Or any recent Scotland match?

Or v France?

[Puja]

It's just occurred to me that it's been years and years since I watched a match where I was fearful we'd lose our ball at every single breakdown. V Ireland and/or Wales circa 2014-15 ring vague bells.

Or any recent Scotland match?

Or v France?

Or most games where we don't play two flankers for some absurd reason?

Puja

[Mush]

I think we should have kicked long and chased hard. They had no natural 9 on the field and down to 14. If they had tried to attack us we’d have been a great chance at forcing them into a mistake or a poor kick back.

This. Just can’t get my head around why, under those set of circumstances, you would settle so readily for that option.

Smith collects the ball, and the time is in the red zone, so kicks it out for the draw, but it's thought that a better option would have been to kick possession to the opposition, really?

Have a go for the win by all means, but you have to do that with possession - not without.

[Puja]

I think we should have kicked long and chased hard. They had no natural 9 on the field and down to 14. If they had tried to attack us we’d have been a great chance at forcing them into a mistake or a poor kick back.

This. Just can’t get my head around why, under those set of circumstances, you would settle so readily for that option.

Smith collects the ball, and the time is in the red zone, so kicks it out for the draw, but it's thought that a better option would have been to kick possession to the opposition, really?

Have a go for the win by all means, but you have to do that with possession - not without.

The problem with playing with possession in your own half is that one spin of the Raynal Wheel of Decisions and NZ get a kickable penalty. Not saying it's what I would've done, but I can understand the logic behind kicking long and putting the pressure on NZ to cope, especially with Willis on the pitch.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

I don't see a problem in kicking the ball deep into NZ territory. Press hard and look to turn them over. They don't have a 9 on the pitch and are a man down. If they kick it out then psychologically that's them taking the draw.

OK they might cut you to shreds and if they do then fair play.

Otherwise we'd have to go from deep, likely with a couple of forward carries close in and the risk of giving away a stupid penalty, which with this being England would be a pretty high likelihood.

[Oakboy]

I don't see a problem in kicking the ball deep into NZ territory. Press hard and look to turn them over. They don't have a 9 on the pitch and are a man down. If they kick it out then psychologically that's them taking the draw.

OK they might cut you to shreds and if they do then fair play.

Otherwise we'd have to go from deep, likely with a couple of forward carries close in and the risk of giving away a stupid penalty, which with this being England would be a pretty high likelihood.

Put like that, there is a smidgeon of us NOT having a built-in inferiority complex. I yearn for SCW days when we thought 'bollix, we can beat anybody by outplaying them'.

[Mr Mwenda]

I feel too much weight is being given to the decision to kick it out. It's a stand-alone fixture. Yes it might be nice to have gone for the win but I can't begrudge a bunch of pros recovering from a shit day at the office banking the comeback and getting to the pub. I think psychologically the damage to NZ is greater in this situation.

[Banquo]

I feel to much weight is being given to the decision to kick it out. It's a stand-alone fixture. Yes it might be nice to have gone for the win but I can't begrudge a bunch of pros recovering from a shit day at the office to bank the comeback and get to the pub. I think psychologically the damage to NZ is greater in this situation.

well exactly....its a standalone fixture. If it were a pool game, you might settle for a draw.

[Oakboy]

I feel to much weight is being given to the decision to kick it out. It's a stand-alone fixture. Yes it might be nice to have gone for the win but I can't begrudge a bunch of pros recovering from a shit day at the office to bank the comeback and get to the pub. I think psychologically the damage to NZ is greater in this situation.

well exactly....its a standalone fixture. If it were a pool game, you might settle for a draw.

Quite! It's win or lose. So far in the AIs we've won 1/3.