RugbyRebels

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 12:47 pm I'd have brought in t'other Willis to play at 8. Presumably, if fully back to his best, Underhill is reckoned to provide more pace in the loose.

I suspect Underhill has been brought in to try and solve our inability to dominate the tackle area. With Lawes looking to be struggling with an injury yesterday it might be good timing.

Curry and Underhill I can more than live with. It worked for Mitchell and it worked for (god help us) May…….. so Sam will be straight in

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:32 am I see Itoje is once again being questioned. Even the commentator said he's been 'quiet' (despite a key jackal). Does no-one actually watch what he does; he got some stick for marchant's none try, but Marchant over ran him imo (players slow into contact and when passing Joe ).

Banquo Itoje’s being (imo fairly) questioned because compared to the zenith he reached on his first few seasons he’s been bang average (at best) - like Billy and Farrell successive England coaches have been too reluctant to drop him when needed and his place in the starting XV being complacently taken as a given. I’d honestly swap him in that 4 shirt for Lawes at the moment which would give space for 3 out and out back rows not what used to be called in the old days a utility forward.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:26 pm Curry and Underhill I can more than live with. It worked for Mitchell and it worked for (god help us) May…….. so Sam will be straight in

I actually think that if you start Curry, start Underhill as well - I think something in Underhill’s style brings out the best in Curry’s game ( in contrast to the last Lions tour and the Samoa game where imo playing Lawes and Curry together on the flanks does neither any favours and looks stodgy). It would also allow Curry to move back to 6 which at test level I think also adds to his game whilst still enabling him to focus on his (imo) key strengths of jackelling, clearing and tackling.

jngf wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:33 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:32 am I see Itoje is once again being questioned. Even the commentator said he's been 'quiet' (despite a key jackal). Does no-one actually watch what he does; he got some stick for marchant's none try, but Marchant over ran him imo (players slow into contact and when passing Joe ).

Banquo Itoje’s being (imo fairly) questioned because compared to the zenith he reached on his first few seasons he’s been bang average (at best) - like Billy and Farrell successive England coaches have been too reluctant to drop him when needed and his place in the starting XV being complacently taken as a given. I’d honestly swap him in that 4 shirt for Lawes at the moment which would give space for 3 out and out back rows not what used to be called in the old days a utility forward.

Despite Lawes not having played lock for what, 3 years or so. Try replacing Itoje's restart work, his excellence at 2,4,6 as a jumper, his phenomenal work rate at rucks both sides of the ball. I don't think you can be watching him very closely, frankly- his work is literally unseen to you; he's the only bit of glue in an inconsistent pack.

Thought Itoje was well below par yesterday. He wasnt alone of course.

No faulting his workrate or general effectiveness, he doesnt seem to produce the big moments that were a feature of his play a few years back.

He's still the first name on the teamsheet for me though.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:48 am 100% that ball had to go earlier.

You might want to watch that again- any earlier would have been an act of absolute genius as I doubt he saw Marchant until he'd got to the defender's outside shoulder.

jngf wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:46 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:26 pm Curry and Underhill I can more than live with. It worked for Mitchell and it worked for (god help us) May…….. so Sam will be straight in

I actually think that if you start Curry, start Underhill as well - I think something in Underhill’s style brings out the best in Curry’s game ( in contrast to the last Lions tour and the Samoa game where imo playing Lawes and Curry together on the flanks does neither any favours and looks stodgy). It would also allow Curry to move back to 6 which at test level I think also adds to his game whilst still enabling him to focus on his (imo) key strengths of jackelling, clearing and tackling.

Couldn’t agree more. I have never been comfortable with Lawes at 6. Wouldn’t be too disappointed if Ludlum comes in at 8 to make up the back row

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:00 pm Thought Itoje was well below par yesterday. He wasnt alone of course.

No faulting his workrate or general effectiveness, he doesnt seem to produce the big moments that were a feature of his play a few years back.

He's still the first name on the teamsheet for me though.

So what was 'well' below par? Did he fumble lineouts or restarts? He did miss 3 tackles, apparently, but such was our rubbish defensive performance, he was hardly alone.

On key moments.....Did he not get a key turnover on our line? Did he not make a very decent break from a delayed pass from Smith that would have been a try but for a slight overrun (imo) from Marchant?
Genuinely baffled what people are looking for, given his tasking. Seems his par is a very high bar.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:04 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:00 pm Thought Itoje was well below par yesterday. He wasnt alone of course.

No faulting his workrate or general effectiveness, he doesnt seem to produce the big moments that were a feature of his play a few years back.

He's still the first name on the teamsheet for me though.

So what was 'well' below par? Did he fumble lineouts or restarts? He did miss 3 tackles, apparently, but such was our rubbish defensive performance, he was hardly alone.

I’m surprised it is only listed as 3.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:52 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:33 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:32 am I see Itoje is once again being questioned. Even the commentator said he's been 'quiet' (despite a key jackal). Does no-one actually watch what he does; he got some stick for marchant's none try, but Marchant over ran him imo (players slow into contact and when passing Joe ).

Banquo Itoje’s being (imo fairly) questioned because compared to the zenith he reached on his first few seasons he’s been bang average (at best) - like Billy and Farrell successive England coaches have been too reluctant to drop him when needed and his place in the starting XV being complacently taken as a given. I’d honestly swap him in that 4 shirt for Lawes at the moment which would give space for 3 out and out back rows not what used to be called in the old days a utility forward.

Despite Lawes not having played lock for what, 3 years or so. Try replacing Itoje's restart work, his excellence at 2,4,6 as a jumper, his phenomenal work rate at rucks both sides of the ball. I don't think you can be watching him very closely, frankly- his work is literally unseen to you; he's the only bit of glue in an inconsistent pack.

Itoje is bluntly playing like Ewels these days - unseen work is not what made him a world class player in the days that he was. His X factor was being able to fetch like an openside albeit from the lock berth - somebody in the ‘brains trust’ seems to have told him not to do that - so what you have left is a comparatively lightweight and short lock who doesn’t have a powerful carrying game.

No one missed more than Itoje's 3 per the stats. What I did find surprising was Lawes made only 2 tackles but also missed 2. I know he didn't have a good game but that's pretty shocking.

jngf wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:16 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:52 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:33 pm

Banquo Itoje’s being (imo fairly) questioned because compared to the zenith he reached on his first few seasons he’s been bang average (at best) - like Billy and Farrell successive England coaches have been too reluctant to drop him when needed and his place in the starting XV being complacently taken as a given. I’d honestly swap him in that 4 shirt for Lawes at the moment which would give space for 3 out and out back rows not what used to be called in the old days a utility forward.

Despite Lawes not having played lock for what, 3 years or so. Try replacing Itoje's restart work, his excellence at 2,4,6 as a jumper, his phenomenal work rate at rucks both sides of the ball. I don't think you can be watching him very closely, frankly- his work is literally unseen to you; he's the only bit of glue in an inconsistent pack.

Itoje is bluntly playing like Ewels these days -

That's absolute nonsense.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:17 pm No one missed more than Itoje's 3 per the stats. What I did find surprising was Lawes made only 2 tackles but also missed 2. I know he didn't have a good game but that's pretty shocking.

Makes me doubt the numbers tbh- I definitely saw him try more than 4 and miss more than 2.

I’ll take your word for it on the Itoje/Marchant. Maybe just saw one angle where it looked like he had plenty of time. No way am I going back through that game.

I think it swings both ways with criticism of Itoje, he’s not doing as much eye catching stuff and is getting through a mountain of other work. It doesn’t mean his performances game to game shouldn’t be questioned, he’s had a number of rather underwhelming ones, but suggesting there’s anyone who would obviously be doing a better job (even Lawes) is just wrong.

I’d love if we were in a position where a Chessum/Martin/Ribbans combo demands we drop Itoje if his form dips, but we aren’t.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:33 pm I’ll take your word for it on the Itoje/Marchant. Maybe just saw one angle where it looked like he had plenty of time. No way am I going back through that game.

I think it swings both ways with criticism of Itoje, he’s not doing as much eye catching stuff and is getting through a mountain of other work. It doesn’t mean his performances game to game shouldn’t be questioned, he’s had a number of rather underwhelming ones, but suggesting there’s anyone who would obviously be doing a better job (even Lawes) is just wrong.

I’d love if we were in a position where a Chessum/Martin/Ribbans combo demands we drop Itoje if his form dips, but we aren’t.

Disagree Mikey, I don’t think we’d be any worse off (and potentially significantly better off ) with Lawes started at 4 instead of Itoje in the quarter final. I understand that Itoje’s had conditioning/health issues in 2022 which he’s put on record - and whilst naturally sympathetic to that it indicates to me that (like Billy) he’s being picked on a hope by Seb Blatter of some sort of fingers crossed return to form when there’s been scarce tangible evidence of that imo.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:33 pm I’ll take your word for it on the Itoje/Marchant. Maybe just saw one angle where it looked like he had plenty of time. No way am I going back through that game.

I think it swings both ways with criticism of Itoje, he’s not doing as much eye catching stuff and is getting through a mountain of other work. It doesn’t mean his performances game to game shouldn’t be questioned, he’s had a number of rather underwhelming ones, but suggesting there’s anyone who would obviously be doing a better job (even Lawes) is just wrong.

I’d love if we were in a position where a Chessum/Martin/Ribbans combo demands we drop Itoje if his form dips, but we aren’t.

Again- not sure what's underwhelming about someone who does everything to a pretty/very high standard. That's my question- what do people want? He was getting stick for being penalised too much (and I was criticising that game to game), so has stopped that at the same time as being the guy who is always hitting the most rucks (just ahead of George)- in fairness some of that is because they are being flogged for 80 mins. Perhaps if Itoje were told he was doing 60, he could expend more energy being eye catching

jngf wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:43 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:33 pm I’ll take your word for it on the Itoje/Marchant. Maybe just saw one angle where it looked like he had plenty of time. No way am I going back through that game.

I think it swings both ways with criticism of Itoje, he’s not doing as much eye catching stuff and is getting through a mountain of other work. It doesn’t mean his performances game to game shouldn’t be questioned, he’s had a number of rather underwhelming ones, but suggesting there’s anyone who would obviously be doing a better job (even Lawes) is just wrong.

I’d love if we were in a position where a Chessum/Martin/Ribbans combo demands we drop Itoje if his form dips, but we aren’t.

Disagree Mikey, I don’t think we’d be any worse off (and potentially significantly better off ) with Lawes started at 4 instead of Itoje in the quarter final. I understand that Itoje’s had conditioning/health issues in 2022 which he’s put on record - and whilst naturally sympathetic to that it indicates to me that (like Billy) he’s being picked on a hope by Seb Blatter of some sort of fingers crossed return to form when there’s been scarce tangible evidence of that imo.

When did you last see Lawes start at lock internationally?

Precisely what is it that Itoje isn't doing, please put me out of my misery!

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:45 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:33 pm I’ll take your word for it on the Itoje/Marchant. Maybe just saw one angle where it looked like he had plenty of time. No way am I going back through that game.

I think it swings both ways with criticism of Itoje, he’s not doing as much eye catching stuff and is getting through a mountain of other work. It doesn’t mean his performances game to game shouldn’t be questioned, he’s had a number of rather underwhelming ones, but suggesting there’s anyone who would obviously be doing a better job (even Lawes) is just wrong.

I’d love if we were in a position where a Chessum/Martin/Ribbans combo demands we drop Itoje if his form dips, but we aren’t.

Again- not sure what's underwhelming about someone who does everything to a pretty/very high standard. That's my question- what do people want? He was getting stick for being penalised too much (and I was criticising that game to game), so has stopped that at the same time as being the guy who is always hitting the most rucks (just ahead of George)- in fairness some of that is because they are being flogged for 80 mins. Perhaps if Itoje were told he was doing 60, he could expend more energy being eye catching

Maybe I should have said he’s been a ‘part of’ many underwhelming pack performances. I’m more driving at him doing his current role well (generally) but not really being in a position (mainly due to pack balance and strategy) to make as many big plays, turning momentum, winning turnovers etc.

Still sounds negative but it’s not trying to lay the blame at his feet.

Jngf I have no idea what you picture Lawes doing at lock that addresses the lack of a bruising set-piece monster. Great lineout work (though not calling anymore I would assume?) and the very occasional good carry.

His defence is generally good, though the dominant hits have dried up, but even that has been ropey recently. He’s not a strong scrummager and is unlikely to have gotten better at it, and is a non-presence at restarts. He also needs medical attention at 15 minutes intervals. What would he be adding?

I think over-debating Itoje's performances gets us nowhere. He's had to play with loads of second row partners and now is forging a good relationship with Chessum, who has needed a lot of help to become the effective part of the unit which he is now. Within this competition to talk of changing that pairing makes no sense to me.

The only issue is whether the lineout effectiveness can survive losing Lawes if he is left out. I would not be surprised with changes to the starting line-up in front and back row. I would be amazed by a second row change. It is not necessary and it is almost certain not to happen.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:07 pm I think over-debating Itoje's performances gets us nowhere. He's had to play with loads of second row partners and now is forging a good relationship with Chessum, who has needed a lot of help to become the effective part of the unit which he is now. Within this competition to talk of changing that pairing makes no sense to me.

The only issue is whether the lineout effectiveness can survive losing Lawes if he is left out. I would not be surprised with changes to the starting line-up in front and back row. I would be amazed by a second row change. It is not necessary and it is almost certain not to happen.

Beats fazzing it up . But of all the problems to solve..

We all know what the issues are, changing the number on Lawes shirt ain’t fixing diddly squat.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:24 pm We all know what the issues are, changing the number on Lawes shirt ain’t fixing diddly squat.

Diddly squat is the new Stewards Bestmate

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:52 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:33 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:32 am I see Itoje is once again being questioned. Even the commentator said he's been 'quiet' (despite a key jackal). Does no-one actually watch what he does; he got some stick for marchant's none try, but Marchant over ran him imo (players slow into contact and when passing Joe ).

Banquo Itoje’s being (imo fairly) questioned because compared to the zenith he reached on his first few seasons he’s been bang average (at best) - like Billy and Farrell successive England coaches have been too reluctant to drop him when needed and his place in the starting XV being complacently taken as a given. I’d honestly swap him in that 4 shirt for Lawes at the moment which would give space for 3 out and out back rows not what used to be called in the old days a utility forward.

Despite Lawes not having played lock for what, 3 years or so. Try replacing Itoje's restart work, his excellence at 2,4,6 as a jumper, his phenomenal work rate at rucks both sides of the ball. I don't think you can be watching him very closely, frankly- his work is literally unseen to you; he's the only bit of glue in an inconsistent pack.

In all the time I’ve been posting here I’ve never felt that @jngf is watching anyone closely TBH. A good deal of his opinions are only held by him which kind of tells it’s own story …

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 12:40 pm The second row is not the issue. If front and back rows were playing as well we'd have less problems. I thought Genge was below his best, George was erratic and Cole very limited away from the scrum. Our back row was up against a good unit. Curry worked his socks off. Lawes did some critical stuff. Earl struggled a bit but that is hardly surprising at this level. He did still look a far better No 8 than BV.

I’m surprised more hasn’t been made of Genge’s anonymity so far. For a guy who is considered to be a leader and one of our best players, he’s been very disappointing. I don’t recall him doing anything of note yet.

He’s one of a few who really need to step up in the QF.