RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 3:11 pm I know I'm several days late on this but I've only just seen the Earl celebration when Ireland biffed that lineout. It really is awful.

I'm reminded of all those years as a Scotland fan where people would mock the team for celebrating a win over Italy or the USA, and that wasn't nearly as animated, or when a smaller side scores a consolation try in a drubbing by one of the big teams. I guess the thinking is that it shows the opposition how passionate and united you are as a team, and maybe that works when you're already on top, but right now it just looks like winning a penalty or observing a not-straight throw is the height of our ambitions.

If you aren't good enough, obsess with trivia!!

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 3:11 pm I know I'm several days late on this but I've only just seen the Earl celebration when Ireland biffed that lineout. It really is awful.

I'm reminded of all those years as a Scotland fan where people would mock the team for celebrating a win over Italy or the USA, and that wasn't nearly as animated, or when a smaller side scores a consolation try in a drubbing by one of the big teams. I guess the thinking is that it shows the opposition how passionate and united you are as a team, and maybe that works when you're already on top, but right now it just looks like winning a penalty or observing a not-straight throw is the height of our ambitions.

The thing that annoys me is that it's so artificial. I have no issue with people genuinely getting excited about winning the ball back - it's a passionate game - but this is coached behaviour at Saracens to wind other teams up with artificial overcelebrations and none of them are particularly good actors. For Ben Earl, it's like watching a computer game from 20 years ago where the characters only have a certain number of moves animated and someone's pressed F for "Roar like a lion" - it's exactly the same actions whether it's a try or a collapsed scrum or a good voucher code at Lidl.

It's annoying enough at Saracens to watch them giving a badly-acted yells at a successful moment, belted out to the cheap seats like a local theatre Shakespeare production, because it's shithousery for the sake of a 1% benefit and I'd rather they just kept their dignity. For England, it's just sad, cause there's no winning moments to overcelebrate, and they're left giving the same bellow for a knock on that they would at Saracens for a try-saving tackle.

Puja

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:10 am Itoje is fine, he's doing a lot of work.

I hope the Willises match the hype.

Hill ...

I beg to differ on Itoje, he was anonymous on Saturday for much of the game and really has lost form since RWC2019 imo

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:19 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:10 am Itoje is fine, he's doing a lot of work.

I hope the Willises match the hype.

Hill ...

I beg to differ on Itoje, he was anonymous on Saturday for much of the game and really has lost form since RWC2019 imo

Who is a better lock at the moment?

Simon Shaw I’m guessing.

morepork wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:28 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:19 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:10 am Itoje is fine, he's doing a lot of work.

I hope the Willises match the hype.

Hill ...

I beg to differ on Itoje, he was anonymous on Saturday for much of the game and really has lost form since RWC2019 imo

Who is a better lock at the moment?

Lawes would be better in that 4 shirt imo

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:19 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:10 am Itoje is fine, he's doing a lot of work.

I hope the Willises match the hype.

Hill ...

I beg to differ on Itoje, he was anonymous on Saturday for much of the game and really has lost form since RWC2019 imo

Would you be able to do me a favour? If he plays on Saturday, try any 10 minutes to ignore the rest of the game and focus just on Itoje and see how many rucks he is the main force in. He's not in the scintillating form of 2019, but I've learned from doing the minute-by-minutes that his impact on the game tends to still be huge while still appearing anonymous if you're not specifically concentrating on him.

Puja

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:42 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:28 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:19 pm

I beg to differ on Itoje, he was anonymous on Saturday for much of the game and really has lost form since RWC2019 imo

Who is a better lock at the moment?

Lawes would be better in that 4 shirt imo

Lawes hasn’t started at lock for about 3 years. And are you proposing him as tight head or loose head lock?

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:03 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:42 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:28 pm

Who is a better lock at the moment?

Lawes would be better in that 4 shirt imo

Lawes hasn’t started at lock for about 3 years. And are you proposing him as tight head or loose head lock?

He’s taller than Itoje. Get over it already.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:44 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:19 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:10 am Itoje is fine, he's doing a lot of work.

I hope the Willises match the hype.

Hill ...

I beg to differ on Itoje, he was anonymous on Saturday for much of the game and really has lost form since RWC2019 imo

Would you be able to do me a favour? If he plays on Saturday, try any 10 minutes to ignore the rest of the game and focus just on Itoje and see how many rucks he is the main force in. He's not in the scintillating form of 2019, but I've learned from doing the minute-by-minutes that his impact on the game tends to still be huge while still appearing anonymous if you're not specifically concentrating on him.

Puja

If Itoje is just focussing on ( presumably clearing? ) rucks it’s not exactly reaping dividends in terms of results and maybe he should go back to focussing on fetching more?

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:03 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:42 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:28 pm

Who is a better lock at the moment?

Lawes would be better in that 4 shirt imo

Lawes hasn’t started at lock for about 3 years. And are you proposing him as tight head or loose head lock?

Loose head (in lieu of Itoje) - I’m fairly relaxed about him not starting at lock for some time as each time he plays in a test he plays a lot more like a lock than a back rower imo

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:54 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:03 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:42 pm

Lawes would be better in that 4 shirt imo

Lawes hasn’t started at lock for about 3 years. And are you proposing him as tight head or loose head lock?

Loose head (in lieu of Itoje) - I’m fairly relaxed about him not starting at lock for some time as each time he plays in a test he plays a lot more like a lock than a back rower imo

Despite complete lack of scrum time there?

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:51 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:44 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:19 pm

I beg to differ on Itoje, he was anonymous on Saturday for much of the game and really has lost form since RWC2019 imo

Would you be able to do me a favour? If he plays on Saturday, try any 10 minutes to ignore the rest of the game and focus just on Itoje and see how many rucks he is the main force in. He's not in the scintillating form of 2019, but I've learned from doing the minute-by-minutes that his impact on the game tends to still be huge while still appearing anonymous if you're not specifically concentrating on him.

Puja

If Itoje is just focussing on ( presumably clearing? ) rucks it’s not exactly reaping dividends in terms of results and maybe he should go back to focussing on fetching more?

So just ignore his tasking and do what he wants? Good luck with that if you want to be picked again.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 9:07 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:51 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:44 pm

Would you be able to do me a favour? If he plays on Saturday, try any 10 minutes to ignore the rest of the game and focus just on Itoje and see how many rucks he is the main force in. He's not in the scintillating form of 2019, but I've learned from doing the minute-by-minutes that his impact on the game tends to still be huge while still appearing anonymous if you're not specifically concentrating on him.

Puja

If Itoje is just focussing on ( presumably clearing? ) rucks it’s not exactly reaping dividends in terms of results and maybe he should go back to focussing on fetching more?

So just ignore his tasking and do what he wants? Good luck with that if you want to be picked again.

In that case the tasking needs revision

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 9:18 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 9:07 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:51 pm

If Itoje is just focussing on ( presumably clearing? ) rucks it’s not exactly reaping dividends in terms of results and maybe he should go back to focussing on fetching more?

So just ignore his tasking and do what he wants? Good luck with that if you want to be picked again.

In that case the tasking needs revision

glad you got there eventually

Stolen from Reddit and sort of relevant to the kicking conversation earlier, couldn’t find the original source of the stats though.

England ranked against the 10 tier one nations.
Points per 22 entry: 10th
Ruck speed: 8th
Kick metres: 1st
Line breaks: 10th
Handling errors: 10th
Turnovers lost: 10th
Metres made: 8th

I’m not sure if turnovers lost is what it sounds like.

Turgidity: 1st

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:53 pm Stolen from Reddit and sort of relevant to the kicking conversation earlier, couldn’t find the original source of the stats though.

England ranked against the 10 tier one nations.
Points per 22 entry: 10th
Ruck speed: 8th
Kick metres: 1st
Line breaks: 10th
Handling errors: 10th
Turnovers lost: 10th
Metres made: 8th

I’m not sure if turnovers lost is what it sounds like.

Careful! SB might look at that and declare improvement in ruck speed and metres made.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:03 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:05 am

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 2:04 am
Not just, but mainly...

There weren't a lot of positives. But kicking to us is just fucking mental. You'd have deserved the 22-22 Lowe nearly got. And there is no question to which Youngs is a sensible answer in rugby as currently refereed. But Care and Fird can play the fast game and you have some athletes who can keep up. Manu will run good lines and Marchant has talent. But what the fuck's the point in any of them without actually passing the backs the ball before 60 minutes.

England had more territory than Ireland. Somewhat suggesting the kicking game didn't go that badly, especially since you guys dominated the breakdown. Wasn't a lot of point trying to run it from our own half so that you could turn us over and take easy shots at goal or to the corner (though your rolling mauls didn't go anywhere).

The backs saw more of the ball in this game than in the last two but when the ruck is so badly resourced and so effectively targeted they don't want the achingly slow ball that arrives at the same time as a defender.

The aim of the game is to score tries. You can grind away between the half and the 10 and your territory stats will look great. Similarly by the simple expedient of conceding tries quickly the same will happen. I've seen the ABs thump teams by 30 points with 35% territory because they get the ball and execute. Now of course territory is useful particularly if you're England and long range scores are unlikely. But I can't recall a single kick that actually achieved anything and i can recall a few kicking battles lost.

Finally watched the game last night (issues with Fire TV audio sync aside). Been reading through the thread and have been baffled by the lack of criticism of Eng’s kicking. I can’t recall a single contestable kick from Eng in the match. Not one. SA have won world cups with that one aspect done well. If you’re going to kick constantly to a good back three at least try to make it a little bit awkward.

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:10 am Itoje is fine, he's doing a lot of unseenwork.

I hope the Willises match the hype.

Hill ...

FTFY.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:53 pm Stolen from Reddit and sort of relevant to the kicking conversation earlier, couldn’t find the original source of the stats though.

England ranked against the 10 tier one nations.
Points per 22 entry: 10th
Ruck speed: 8th
Kick metres: 1st
Line breaks: 10th
Handling errors: 10th
Turnovers lost: 10th
Metres made: 8th

I’m not sure if turnovers lost is what it sounds like.

There was a stat table flashed up during the game showing 1-3 sec rucks (might’ve been from the 6Ns?) of Ire and Eng. I’m astonished the above table shows us at 8th. We’re leasing the way with 30 sec rucks though.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:53 pm Stolen from Reddit and sort of relevant to the kicking conversation earlier, couldn’t find the original source of the stats though.

England ranked against the 10 tier one nations.
Points per 22 entry: 10th
Ruck speed: 8th
Kick metres: 1st
Line breaks: 10th
Handling errors: 10th
Turnovers lost: 10th
Metres made: 8th

I’m not sure if turnovers lost is what it sounds like.

I checked out the data linked to the Twitter article (to see how Wales compared). Actually England were only 9th at line breaks, Australia were in fact the worst.

For comparison, Wales's stats were fairly dire, particularly where speed is required:
Points per 22 entry: 9th
Ruck speed: 9th
Kick metres: 5th
Line breaks: 8th
Handling errors: 3rd
Turnovers lost: 4th
Metres made: 9th

Beasties wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:15 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:53 pm Stolen from Reddit and sort of relevant to the kicking conversation earlier, couldn’t find the original source of the stats though.

England ranked against the 10 tier one nations.
Points per 22 entry: 10th
Ruck speed: 8th
Kick metres: 1st
Line breaks: 10th
Handling errors: 10th
Turnovers lost: 10th
Metres made: 8th

I’m not sure if turnovers lost is what it sounds like.

There was a stat table flashed up during the game showing 1-3 sec rucks (might’ve been from the 6Ns?) of Ire and Eng. I’m astonished the above table shows us at 8th. We’re leasing the way with 30 sec rucks though.

Ruck speed, handling errors and turnovers lost. Killing us. We get chances in the opposition 22 and waste them. Won't improve any of those other stats until we protect our own rucks and get quicker clean ball (to a scrum half that isn't Youngs).

#Justice4Benny

Beasties wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:02 am

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:03 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:05 am

England had more territory than Ireland. Somewhat suggesting the kicking game didn't go that badly, especially since you guys dominated the breakdown. Wasn't a lot of point trying to run it from our own half so that you could turn us over and take easy shots at goal or to the corner (though your rolling mauls didn't go anywhere).

The backs saw more of the ball in this game than in the last two but when the ruck is so badly resourced and so effectively targeted they don't want the achingly slow ball that arrives at the same time as a defender.

The aim of the game is to score tries. You can grind away between the half and the 10 and your territory stats will look great. Similarly by the simple expedient of conceding tries quickly the same will happen. I've seen the ABs thump teams by 30 points with 35% territory because they get the ball and execute. Now of course territory is useful particularly if you're England and long range scores are unlikely. But I can't recall a single kick that actually achieved anything and i can recall a few kicking battles lost.

Finally watched the game last night (issues with Fire TV audio sync aside). Been reading through the thread and have been baffled by the lack of criticism of Eng’s kicking. I can’t recall a single contestable kick from Eng in the match. Not one. SA have won world cups with that one aspect done well. If you’re going to kick constantly to a good back three at least try to make it a little bit awkward.

Because the Irish back three are all really good in the air and if you are kicking to contest you are kicking shorter which then gives the Irish player chance to take the ball in a better attacking position. You kick longer and then back your chaser to make the initial tackle and you are further down the field with it being much more likely that they'll kick back to you. If you have a good openside you hope they arrive second and make nuisance of themselves. Tigers also used this tactic but would often attack the ruck after the tackle on the catcher because the opposition would want their back three players back on their feet before trying to play or kick. Chop tackle and attack the breakdown.

Our inability to get at the opposition breakdown consistently is an(other) issue.