RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:08 pm Speaking of which, where does Ben Earl sit in the pecking order after yesterday. He’s leapfrogged Ludlam? Any idea how fit Tom Curry is?

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 12:59 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 12:14 pm I think Jalibert is the better player but the Toulouse 9-10 combo is probs more important.

Agreed - for my money, taken on their own, Jalibert is the better player, but the understanding Ntamack has with Dupont is practically telepathic and puts him ahead for a team selection.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:16 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:08 pm Speaking of which, where does Ben Earl sit in the pecking order after yesterday. He’s leapfrogged Ludlam? Any idea how fit Tom Curry is?

Excellent question. From just the Wales game, you'd say he should've leapfrogged BillyV to 8. That comes with the caveat that BillyV does always need gametime to get back into form and has very high ceiling if we can get him match-ready, but I am at the moment very interested in the idea of Willis/Curry at 7 with Earl at 8. I'm not a great fan of a lock at 6 anyway, but it does appear that Lawes is inked in, so having two flankers might sort out our awful security at our own rucks. A lot (but not all) of the criticism that JVP got stemmed from our pack not clearing the Welsh out properly and letting them interfere with the presentation.

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:18 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 12:59 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 12:14 pm I think Jalibert is the better player but the Toulouse 9-10 combo is probs more important.

Agreed - for my money, taken on their own, Jalibert is the better player, but the understanding Ntamack has with Dupont is practically telepathic and puts him ahead for a team selection.

Jalibert is the more rounded and better tactical option but Ntamack's ability to just slice open a defence out of nowhere is pretty awesome. Particularly when he's on that wavelength with Dupont and Dupont is phenomenal at game management.

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:20 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:16 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:08 pm Speaking of which, where does Ben Earl sit in the pecking order after yesterday. He’s leapfrogged Ludlam? Any idea how fit Tom Curry is?

Excellent question. From just the Wales game, you'd say he should've leapfrogged BillyV to 8. That comes with the caveat that BillyV does always need gametime to get back into form and has very high ceiling if we can get him match-ready, but I am at the moment very interested in the idea of Willis/Curry at 7 with Earl at 8. I'm not a great fan of a lock at 6 anyway, but it does appear that Lawes is inked in, so having two flankers might sort out our awful security at our own rucks. A lot (but not all) of the criticism that JVP got stemmed from our pack not clearing the Welsh out properly and letting them interfere with the presentation.

Puja

Lawes did play pretty well and did win that turnover penalty from the Martin chop tackle. Think that was for the lineout from which we scored.

Ruck ball definitely needs tidying up, admittedly most of the teams won't be allowed to push the boundaries as much as the Welsh did on Saturday but we don't want to have to rely on the ref.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:24 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:18 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 12:59 pm

Agreed - for my money, taken on their own, Jalibert is the better player, but the understanding Ntamack has with Dupont is practically telepathic and puts him ahead for a team selection.

Jalibert is the more rounded and better tactical option but Ntamack's ability to just slice open a defence out of nowhere is pretty awesome. Particularly when he's on that wavelength with Dupont and Dupont is phenomenal at game management.

This is going to come across really harsh, and I do NOT mean it to; complete with exaggerations to make my point.
For me, Jalibert is the game-management FH, who does everything I want a FH to do. Ntamack is more like an IC playing FH - a superb deputy, and I agree, more of an individual threat - but who needs someone else to do the game management for him (or tell him what decisions to make).
Dupont does all that game management stuff, and communicates it so well to his FH, that I feel he clashes a little bit with Jalibert (too many cooks), but works perfectly with Ntamack.

TBH, I see the same (very differently) with Ford vs Smith. Ford is the game manager, who's reading / manipulating what's going to happen 4 phases down the line and 50m away. Smith's the personal threat with the narrower, shorter vision, in greater need (currently) of someone else to manage the game for him.
What I wouldn't give for a Dupont.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:30 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:20 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:16 pm

Excellent question. From just the Wales game, you'd say he should've leapfrogged BillyV to 8. That comes with the caveat that BillyV does always need gametime to get back into form and has very high ceiling if we can get him match-ready, but I am at the moment very interested in the idea of Willis/Curry at 7 with Earl at 8. I'm not a great fan of a lock at 6 anyway, but it does appear that Lawes is inked in, so having two flankers might sort out our awful security at our own rucks. A lot (but not all) of the criticism that JVP got stemmed from our pack not clearing the Welsh out properly and letting them interfere with the presentation.

Puja

Lawes did play pretty well and did win that turnover penalty from the Martin chop tackle. Think that was for the lineout from which we scored.

Ruck ball definitely needs tidying up, admittedly most of the teams won't be allowed to push the boundaries as much as the Welsh did on Saturday but we don't want to have to rely on the ref.

I am a bit more than resigned to Lawes at 6 nowadays - he has played well enough that I acknowledge his values there. However, we do always seem to be second best at rucks (either defensive or attacking) when we play a back row with him in it - I don't know whether that's confirmation bias on my part, but it's always seemed to be the case and Saturday was no different.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:15 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:30 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:20 pm

Lawes did play pretty well and did win that turnover penalty from the Martin chop tackle. Think that was for the lineout from which we scored.

Ruck ball definitely needs tidying up, admittedly most of the teams won't be allowed to push the boundaries as much as the Welsh did on Saturday but we don't want to have to rely on the ref.

I am a bit more than resigned to Lawes at 6 nowadays - he has played well enough that I acknowledge his values there. However, we do always seem to be second best at rucks (either defensive or attacking) when we play a back row with him in it - I don't know whether that's confirmation bias on my part, but it's always seemed to be the case and Saturday was no different.

Puja

Yeah that’s pretty much where I am with Lawes. We sure seem to love a selection that requires very different choices in other areas to accommodate. If we can muster the carrying power between 2 of Earl, Curry and Willis then I guess we could forego a traditional 8 and focus on sorting the breakdown.

I thought Earl showed up really well at 8. He actually got to show that fight and athleticism with the ball for once. It’s annoying knowing Tom Willis can do most of that alongside being a specialist 8 and having the power and ballast to fill the Billy void, but whatever.

I’ve heard that line about Vunipola before but I’m never convinced to be honest. Sounds like ‘please give me a whole bunch more chances than others get to prove their form’ to me. How much it’s about fitness/sharpness or him having a point to prove I don’t know.

Oddly the best performances I’ve seen from Billy in the last few years have been comebacks from injury for Saracens.

It would be very interesting to see how he plays if he were to be benched though. Maybe the new Bill and Ben combo split 60/20 would get more from Vunipola? I just want to see him trample people with his carrying again.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:35 pm I think Billy V's selection is pure reputational bollix.

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:36 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:35 pm I think Billy V's selection is pure reputational bollix.

Blimey Dors, you have kept that under your lid for a while now

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:15 pmIt would be very interesting to see how he plays if he were to be benched though. Maybe the new Bill and Ben combo split 60/20 would get more from Vunipola? I just want to see him trample people with his carrying again.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:40 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:15 pmIt would be very interesting to see how he plays if he were to be benched though. Maybe the new Bill and Ben combo split 60/20 would get more from Vunipola? I just want to see him trample people with his carrying again.

That's a good shout. Start with Marler, George, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Willis/TCurry, Earl, and then have Genge, Dan, Sinckler, Martin, BillyV, Mitchell, Smith, Arundell as options to come off the bench if we need to change a game. Be a hell of a set of "Finishers", wouldn't it?

Puja

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:58 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:40 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:15 pmIt would be very interesting to see how he plays if he were to be benched though. Maybe the new Bill and Ben combo split 60/20 would get more from Vunipola? I just want to see him trample people with his carrying again.

That's a good shout. Start with Marler, George, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Willis/TCurry, Earl, and then have Genge, Dan, Sinckler, Martin, BillyV, Mitchell, Smith, Arundell as options to come off the bench if we need to change a game. Be a hell of a set of "Finishers", wouldn't it?

Puja

Agreed, but, especially as finishers, would Willis/Curry or Ludlam not be even better options than Billy in that scenario?

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:10 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:58 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:40 pm

That's a good shout. Start with Marler, George, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Willis/TCurry, Earl, and then have Genge, Dan, Sinckler, Martin, BillyV, Mitchell, Smith, Arundell as options to come off the bench if we need to change a game. Be a hell of a set of "Finishers", wouldn't it?

Puja

Agreed, but, especially as finishers, would Willis/Curry or Ludlam not be even better options than Billy in that scenario?

Depends. If we've got angry Billy who does a 20 minute cameo of bashing down walls and causing havoc in the opposition defensive line, then he's a better weapon to bring off the bench if we need to change up the game or if we need a score. If he's going to continue to lumber about and not make much of a dent, then yes, take the closer to like-for-like replacement of Willis/Curry/Ludlam.

Puja

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:58 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:40 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:15 pmIt would be very interesting to see how he plays if he were to be benched though. Maybe the new Bill and Ben combo split 60/20 would get more from Vunipola? I just want to see him trample people with his carrying again.

That's a good shout. Start with Marler, George, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Willis/TCurry, Earl, and then have Genge, Dan, Sinckler, Martin, BillyV, Mitchell, Smith, Arundell as options to come off the bench if we need to change a game. Be a hell of a set of "Finishers", wouldn't it?

Puja

Agreed, but, especially as finishers, would Willis/Curry or Ludlam not be even better options than Billy in that scenario?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:23 pm I blame Dombrandt. He got the 6N run of games ahead of T Willis. Presumably, SB felt there was insufficient time to try both etc. Now, unless injury or suspension intervene, he has selected himself into a corner

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 12:14 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 11:45 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:58 am

Feckin’ warm up matches. We’ll be deprived of watching one of the world’s best.

I think France are better with Jalibert tbh

I think Jalibert is the better player but the Toulouse 9-10 combo is probs more important. I feel like we’ve had this convo before?
The injury also gives them the chance to get experience into Hastoy.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 6:07 pm Much talk about Earl at 8. OK he did well enough after the lumbering Billy departed (not hard to look good by comparison.) But at 6'1" and 16 st he's just too small for a top international 8. Much like Simmonds. He had a good game at open side, showed a lot of pace and enthusiasm. Better to keep him in that slot where he is a more natural fit. Fight it out with Curry/J.Willis/Ludlam for a flanker slot (and get rid of Lawes). Pity that Sad Bloke did not see the potential in Mercer/T. Willis.
Most pundits on this board could pick a better team.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 6:07 pm Much talk about Earl at 8. OK he did well enough after the lumbering Billy departed (not hard to look good by comparison.) But at 6'1" and 16 st he's just too small for a top international 8. Much like Simmonds. He had a good game at open side, showed a lot of pace and enthusiasm. Better to keep him in that slot where he is a more natural fit. Fight it out with Curry/J.Willis/Ludlam for a flanker slot (and get rid of Lawes). Pity that Sad Bloke did not see the potential in Mercer/T. Willis.
Most pundits on this board could pick a better team.